Talk:Liberté, égalité, fraternité/Archive 1

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pocadet@access995.com
 * This is a 10 centimes (1 Franc=100 Centimes) coin from 1919. Cmes means Centimes. The R and F mean République Française [This message was left by Ocollard and overwritten by a vandal in March 2006 Ahasuerus 21:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)].

References and more
I have done a bunch to this page today. Not really sure why. There are two reasonably decent references. Well, one is to the Embassy of France - they should know what they are talking about. The other is to an online history book that seemed pretty reasonable to me. I don't really like the formatting of the pictures, but so it goes. I may or may not bother to find some book references for some of this stuff. I also deleted a few things that seemed to have POV issues, or were just incorrect. --Jvv62 17:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, ou la Mort!
This is the adagium of the French revolution in full. It is so said in the first chapter of the article (Origing): "slogan of the French Revolution was Liberté, égalité, fraternité, ou la mort! (Freedom, equality, brotherhood, or death!). This slogan outlived the revolution, and later became the rallying cry of activists, both militant and non-violent, who promote democracy or the overthrow of oppressive governments."

In the following analysis of the composing 4 parts, liberté, égalité, fraternité and ou la mort!, only the first 3 were analysed. The fourth was missing. I added it, the article in question that it links to proves it graphically what 'ou la mort!' meant: or death!. This is nothing of my own imagination, the historical facts are clear. NOT MENTIONING the fourth part, would be unscientific, ahistorical, und politically bias. Stijn Calle 13:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with explaining the 'or death!' bit, if it can be done from decent historical sources rather than your own analysis, which I disagree with. You have interpreted 'Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, ou la Mort!' to mean 'we (the revolutionaries) will have L, E, and F, and if you try to stop us we will kill you.' A better interpretation is 'we (the revolutionaries) prefer to die ourselves if we cannot have L, E and F,' in my opinion. That makes more sense when you consider that "activists, both militant and non-violent" used the slogan. Therefore, the killings during the Terror do not 'explain' the 'ou mort' clause, graphically or otherwise. In any case, our opinions do not go into the article - respectable historical sources are required. Squiddy | (squirt ink?)  13:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * See article La Grande Terreur, Committee of Public Safety, Vendée, Revolt in the Vendée, Law of Suspects, Law of 22 Prairial. Fact is that the systematic and planned killing of opponants, legally enacted by the Law of 22 Prairial II, is a state organised mass murder, which was endemic to the revolution (40.000 deaths is not a casual incident, it is a general rule).  It is democide by a totalitarian government, not "the wish of the revolutionaries to die whenever the revolution failed", they intended to fight untill they died, and killed all opponants of the revolution.  This is no interpretation, it is fact.  You cannot therefor remove the NPOV unilaterely. Stijn Calle 15:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * See further reading on number of casualties and endemic cause "A classic study of the statistics of the Terror was made by the American historian Greer who estimated an overall total of 41,000 victims. But recent estimates of the number of deaths in the Vendée have caused historians to revise that figure considerably. One historian, Pierre Chaunu, spoke of the Vendée with deliberate provocation as a ‘genocide’ and claimed that 500,000 rebels had died. More realistic estimates, such as that by Jean-Clément Martin, suggest up to 250,000 insurgents and 200,000 republicans met their deaths in a war in which both sides suffered appalling atrocities. Another group that was decimated by the unleashing of the Terror was that of the revolutionaries themselves. Successive revolutionary factions fell victim to the Terror that, in many cases, they had themselves helped to orchestrate. In the atmosphere of fear and suspicion that prevailed in that fateful year, they were accused of conspiring against the Revolution that they had helped to build. These revolutionary victims included the Girondins in October 1793, the Hébertists in March 1794, followed a week later by the Dantonists, and finally, the Robespierrists in Thermidor (July 1794). Stijn Calle 15:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * French Revolution (1789-94)
 * Encarta, "French Revolution"
 * Reign of Terror
 * Executed with Trial: 17,000
 * Executed w/o Trial: 12,000
 * Died in jail: "thousands"
 * TOTAL: 40,000
 * Vendee rebellion: 100,000
 * Britannica: 17,000 executed and 10,000 died in jail during the Reign of Terror.
 * James Trager, The People's Chronology (1992): 300-600,000 men, women, children k. in suppression of Vendée revolt. ("1793")
 * Herbert Rowen, A History of Early Modern Europe: 1500-1815 (1960)
 * September Massacres (Paris, 1792): >1,000
 * Reign of Terror: 17,000 k. after trial and 20,000 "with less formality".
 * M. de Jarjayes, A little bit of History
 * Executions: 13,800-18,613 with trial, 25-40,000 without trial
 * Wars: 400,000 in Revolutionary Wars; 400-500,000 in civil wars
 * Spark Notes: 250,000 k. in 9 months of the Reign o'Terror
 * Rummel: 263,000
 * Clodfelter: 80-100,000 d. in Vendee in 1793
 * Pitirim Sorokin, The Sociology of Revolution (1967): 1,400,000 "men perished", 1789-1801. This would include all those killed in the Revolutionary Wars as well. Stijn Calle 15:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * So how can you say that i 'invented' a theory. These facts show that 'ou la mort' was meant literally, for the opponants of the revolution. Stijn Calle 15:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Squiddy. Knowing the spirit of early revolutioners anywhere, the slogan is a lot more likely to mean (let us have) L,E,F, or (let us have) death. All these references talk about something else. --Cubbi 18:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There are two interpretations, of which you have chosen one, Stijn. In doing so, you are going beyond what an encyclopedia-writer can legitimately do, and into the realm of original research. The long list of material you provide above is all irrelevant unless the authors themselves - not you - connect the death toll with the phrase which this article is supposed to be about. Squiddy | (squirt ink?)  11:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, in this case, the reference to 'or death!' should not be strikken of and deleted, but should stay, and BOTH interpretations should be mentioned. We should not hide information, but bring it in the open. Stijn Calle 11:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Since the article is primarily concerned with the current French slogan, 'ou la mort' is irrelevant. Also, in the ensuing discussion, Stijn cites an unrealistic death toll (most of the texts I have read question more than 30,000, including Republican losses putting down the Vendee). More importantly, it has been suggested that the slogan originated not in France, but in the Batavian Republic (the Netherlands), and as soon as I can dig out my books I will cite that as a possibility. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cypher z (talk • contribs) 23:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Revision
I rewrote a large part of the centre of the article "Liberty" "Equality "Fraternity" to be in proper English, so as not to read as though it had been translated from Babelfish. For example "devise" was translated as "currency", whereas in this sense it means "motto". Also, I do not think that Gauloises cigarettes ever had "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" on them. They only have "Liberté". --tigrou36 12:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced section
I'm moving this here. It may be interesting, but should first be sourced, and then correctly inserted in the main-text. Tazmaniacs (talk) 14:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Fraternity
The third element of the motto of the Republic, "Fraternity" is defined in the Declaration of the Rights and Duties of Man and the Citizen, which appeared in the preamble of the Consititution of 5th Fructidor Year III (22 August 1795) : “Do not do unto others what you would not have done to you; always show to others the good that you would have shown to you”. "Fraternity" was only added to the Motto of the Republic in 1848: Catholic deputies offered it as a compromise to prevent the proclamation of the right to employment.

According to Paul Thibaud, philosopher and former director of philosophical journal 'Esprit' [2], "Fraternity is as great an obligation to respect one's fellow man as Liberty and Equality are perceived as rights. It is thus a moral imperative." -Unsigned


 * Could some native English-speakers tell us if this definition belongs to the word "fraternity" or "brotherhood" please? -- Silwilhith (talk) 02:21, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Freemasonry motto
It should be noted that "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" is the motto of European, continental Fraternity, as spoused from the Grand Orient de France and the Grand Lodges and Grand Orients in amity with it. At least I've used it in Spanish, French, Italian and Portuguese Lodges. Bro. J.·. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.38.56.122 (talk) 10:07, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Alleged baptisms
It allegedly became popular for devout revolutionaries to baptise their children not with Father, Son and Holy Spirit but with Liberty, Equality and Fraternity, the slogan of the French Revolution. This needs more research, especially since it implies that the motto makes reference to some occult masonic divinity. ADM (talk) 10:10, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

"Liberty" or "Freedom"?
To my understanding (please confirm): In a sense that: Like in the expression "my home is my castle", the private property defines the boundaries of landlords' liberty, but not of their freedom to travel on roads. Or, another example, the Segregation laws defined the respective liberties of the white and black people, but restricted black people freedom.
 * Liberty is more about externally imposed constraints.
 * Freedom is more about internally available possibilities.
 * 'Freedom' meets its boundaries (frustrations) when reaching "others' power", whereas 'Liberty' defines your own range/boundaries of "legitimate free will power"
 * Freedom (in general) encompasses Liberty
 * in a country having reasonnable laws, the two ranges shall overlap
 * but in countries where there is a dictature, liberties are small and freedom is frustrated

Therefore what should be the best word to use in the 4th Article: or
 * Liberty is being able to do anything that does not harm others: thus, the rights of each man has no limits except those which assure other members of society the enjoyment of those rights. These limits can only be determined by the Law.
 * Freedom is being able to do anything that does not harm others: thus, the rights of each man has no limits except those which assure other members of society the enjoyment of those rights. These limits can only be determined by the Law.

Personally "Freedom" would sound more appropriate. Looking forward to your comments. -- Silwilhith (talk) 02:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Pronounciation
I am curious as to why in this paticular page we do not see the correct pronounciation of these words.

Not being French myself and having taken Spanish in High school, I have no clue as to the way the words should be spoken.

Why hasn't this page been done?

Personally, I do not do well with that kind of an edit on wiki, and would never be so presumptious as to try and figure out that which I have no idea how to interpret.

It's one thing to recognize the words I see written in French, or any language for that matter, its another thing to know how they are to be said.

Anyone able to set this in motion, please do so and thanks. Brattysoul (talk) 01:25, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Capitalisation
Shouldn't this article be Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité? Jepumy (talk) 12:45, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Move?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Liberté, égalité, fraternité → Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:20, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's the proper capitalisation. Jepumy (talk) 12:38, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Mottos are not proper nouns (thus not capitalized) and even if such, proper nouns in French are not capitalized. Arsenikk (talk)  22:53, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Most sources refer to it with the capitals. The article itself consistently refers to it in capitals barring the introduction. Even the French version of the article consistently uses capitals. I can't find any naming convention for national mottos in the style guidelines but this list uses lots of capitalisation for mottos (even some with pages, e.g. Bhinneka Tunggal Ika means 'unity in diversity'). Jepumy (talk) 02:07, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

National Motto of France
The picture of the national motto of France is reversed! The text is right, however the colors are red / white / blue, where they should be blue / white / red, and the face is looking left whereas it should be looking th other side.

The right picture can be found on the French Wikipedia page: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Logo_de_la_R%C3%A9publique_fran%C3%A7aise_%281999%29.svg

Question: where does this defective picture come from, and how did it land here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.167.171.77 (talk) 21:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

brotherhood of man
what is a women's role in the brotherhood of man? How do men go about creating "brotherhood of man"?50.249.93.181 (talk) 14:16, 8 March 2016 (UTC)Rolande Shillingford

Link to Fraternity (philosophy)
The link Fraternity currently redirects to is quite barren, and has been neglected for a while. Shouldn't it redirect to the much more detailed Wikitionary page of the same name? Johnaoss (talk) 02:20, 16 January 2017 (UTC)