Talk:Libertine

Deletion?
This was originally a dictionary defintion, possibly a copyright violation, which is why it's tagged for deletion. However, I think it's an important topic seeing how it was once a strong philosophical movement in Europe. That's why I rewrote, and voted to keep. But not being a libertine, nor one versed in the philosophy, I defer to others to expand on this. I admit, it's not terribly interesting (or perhaps not accurate) as it stands now, but I believe it could be. Alcarillo 15:52, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

This dictionary definition might with more profit be redirected to rake, one of the stock character pages. Unless someone wants to elucidate here, I'd suggest Wiktionary and making this a redirect. Smerdis of Tlön 15:12, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Orig. dicdef, so I've posted material adapted from the 1911 Britannica. Keep. Alcarillo 15:26, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Withdrawing this.  Smerdis of Tlön 16:10, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

adding a refference to rake might be good since the lack of content for libertine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.83.75.55 (talk • contribs) 12:38, 12 April 2007

Deleted that stupid link
I removed that retarded link that has nothing to do with the original article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VTNC (talk • contribs) 20:53, 24 March 2007

References in songs?
Amy Macdonald - Let's start a band. Not sure if it is relavent.

92.17.228.21 (talk) 13:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Needs improvement (9/08)
This article is currently muddled--it is not clear from the text whether this is a "concept" (sometimes an epithet), albeit one with origins in a particular time and place, or a coherent philosophy with self-avowed adherents. It is refered to one time as a philosophy, but without further explanation, and then later the L in "libertines" is capitalized, again suggesting (without explaining) that this was a coherent movement. AdRock (talk) 15:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Pete Doherty
Recently, this guy was added to the list. Though he would probably qualify, there are also at least another dozen more famous rock artist that would have to be added to the list if he is; to make a long story short, should any rock music figures be added? Jim Morrison would be on top of my list if we ever decide to do that. Zazaban (talk) 06:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Pete Doherty is added to the list because he was or is in a band called The Libertines. As this has no bearing on the subject I intend to keep these removed. No rock musician should be added unless there are reliable, external sources describing him as a libertine. Being in a band that just happens to feature the word "libertine" documents nothing about libertarianism.Wlwwybrn (talk) 12:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The Libertines
Please, people. There's already a 'see also' link to the band called The Libertines. Stop adding the band's individual members to this page. It's not clever and it's not funny. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Added a note. Should at least lower the volume of additions. Zazaban (talk) 02:42, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

GG Allin
I put GG Allin in the "notable libertines" section, but it was deleted. I think he should be on the list since it even mentions his libertine beliefs on his page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.220.135 (talk) 12:19, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I put him there at one point and he was removed then, too. It might be that he's not as widely well known as the other people on the list, all of which were fairly notable figures and some of them iconic to the point of having their names adopted into the english language (I.E. Casanova, Sadism). GG Allin was an extremely underground figure. Zazaban (talk) 19:50, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I am removing it because I could not find a citation that says he was a libertine. If he is a "notable libertine" then he or others would describe him that way. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 04:03, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Etymologically Correct Dictionary Definition of "Libertine"
late 14c., "an emancipated slave," from L. libertinus "member of a class of freedmen," from libertus "one's freedmen," from liber "free" (see liberal). Sense of "freethinker" is first recorded 1560s, from Fr. libertin (1540s) originally the name given to certain Protestant sects in France and the Low Countries. Meaning "dissolute or licentious person" first recorded 1590s; the darkening of meaning being perhaps due to misunderstanding of L. libertinus in Acts vi.9. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.183.157.148 (talk) 05:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be a very good addition to the article. Do you have a source? Zazaban (talk) 05:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It also appears in this book from 1576, but with a meaning different from the current one. gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6261091g/f434.image  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.99.19.5 (talk) 23:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
 * But a better source is the libertine entry in the TLFI on the web at the atilf.atilf.fr address, see «Étymol. et Hist» section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.99.19.5 (talk) 23:44, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

AKA as rakes
I deleted that. Unverified. Also corrected the tense in that sentence and removed the word "five", because there are more than five senses. Montedison (talk) 07:01, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Should "atheist" and "freethought" really be in the "see also" section?
What do they actually have to do with libertinism?96.244.85.240 (talk) 19:16, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * They don't have anything to do with Libertines. It is my intention to remove them.  Nutiketaiel (talk) 08:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Modern figures
I removed Silvio Berlusconi from the list of notable libertines. It was supported by this source, which calls him such in a clever headline. I don't think this passes the BLP bar. I see another user previously removed Dominique Strauss-Kahn, which had a similar reference. We should be very conservative about adding modern figures to this list, especially if they're living. --BDD (talk) 20:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Notable Libertines
I've added Aleister Crowley to the list (and alphabetized it). I see some discussions above relating to the ongoing issues with this list, and hope this addition meets standards. ~ Joga Luce ( t )( c ) 09:37, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I've added Aphra Behn to the list. She is vital to the discussion of libertinism, especially in regards to women's literary history in the 18th century. Smdaniels (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2015 (UTC)Smdaniels

"Secret Order of Libertines" hoax
I removed a reference to a "Secret Order of Libertines", because it is evidently a hoax. —  Scott  •  talk  21:29, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Charlie Sheen
Since there seems to have been some disagreement on whether or not Charlie Sheen should be added to the list of notable libertines, I did a quick Google search for the words "Charlie Sheen libertine" and got more than 200,000 hits. Even the most cursory glance reveals no shortage of reliable secondary sources using the term in reference to Charlie. BLP should not be an issue here.2601:6C4:C000:A800:28AA:47F5:A6BA:29D9 (talk) 23:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC)


 * So find one that is actually a reliable source - that is, a reliable source for the specific assertion, not just a generally reliable source using the term in passing - and cite it when you re-add him. Simply saying that there 'should be' a source doesn't cut it. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:59, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Gender?
It seems odd that this article has no discussion of gender, despite the fact that every Libertine listed in the example section is a man. I'd love for a section on feminist perspectives on libertinism, or some reference as to if it was a movement intentionally specific to men. Thoughts? - - mathmitch7 (talk/contribs) 18:26, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

NPV?
This article is not NPV, it presumptuous that sexuality is somehow immoral. A libertine rejects the idea that sexual abstinence is moral, and understands that sex is an entirely normal & ethical behaviour.

Tallulah Bankhead
I am not going to remove this on my own because it is sourced, but is it really fair to put Bankhead here? All she engaged in was consensual promiscuity. Island Pelican (talk) 03:13, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Looking around, I found one other citation here. Especially for the morals of her time, she was pretty out there. She apparently also did a lot of drugs and drank a lot . . . at the same time. Anyways we do not judge here on Wikipedia, we just follow the citations. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 05:58, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I second this. Some moralizing is inevitable because of the subject matter but I think equating being promiscuous and bisexual to being "devoid of most moral principles" is a bit harsh Tropicalorchid (talk) 10:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, but she was often described as libertine. Just google it. If she lived the same lifestyle today, she may not be called that, but she was then, so she is on the list. It is not necessarily an insult to put a person on the list. She might have liked it. Find us a citation that says she did not like being called a libertine, then we will remove it. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 07:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Weird split between editions
When it comes to this article's subject, there's a weird split on Wikipedia between its various language editions. There are 20 editions that describe the person, 10 editions that describe the philosophy, and only one edition, German (de), that has articles about both. German, being the exception, only has a very small article about Libertinismus. The English (en) edition redirects Libertinism to Libertine. Because of the weird split between editions, the sitelinks (interwiki links) are also split in two groups, which prevents easy browsing. Perhaps it makes sense to merge these two wikidata items (Q744443 and Q18915146), after merging the German articles? --77.162.8.57 (talk) 13:20, 27 March 2022 (UTC)