Talk:Libingan ng mga Bayani/Archive 1

Rename
Per Manual of Style, I propose that this article be renamed. Rather than Libingan ng mga Bayani, the article's current name, it should be named with some English phrase descriptive of its content. Following examples provided by articles listed in the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier article, I suggest naming the article Cemetery of the Heroes (Philippines), with a redirect from Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (Philippines) and also a redirect from its current Tagalog language name. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not an expert on this article, but i must say that the most common spelling in English should be used. Masterhatch (talk) 16:41, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was NO CONSENSUS TO MOVE PAGE per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * On December 29, 2008, I moved this article, then named Libingan ng mga Bayani to the English name Cemetery of the Heroes, expecting this to be an uncontroversial move. The edit summary for the move was truncated, but said in part: "... per WP:MOS#Article titles and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English): "Use the most commonly used English version of the name." (see here).
 * On February 10, 2009, the article was moved back to the Libingan ng mga Bayani name, with a edit summary (also truncated) which said in part: " Moved back to original title (see here). While WP:UE says we should use the English title, the current title is not backed up by reliable sources. In addition, most English-language"
 * Subsequent discussion here and here established a controversy over the move.
 * Following on that discussion, I initiated a WP:RM request that the article be moved back to Cemetery of the Heroes. That request designated this talk page section as the location for discussion of the requested move.

My position is (A) that official Wikipedia policies appear to clearly indicate that the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject should be used as the title of the article (see Naming conventions and Naming conventions (use English)); (B) compliance with policy is the expected norm on Wikipedia; and (C) action contrary to policy {i.e., invoking WP:IAR) requires consensus support.

As I understand the opposing position (correct me if I get this wrong), it is (A) Filipinos, the supposed target audience for the article, prefer the Filipino name, while foreigners prefer the English name; (B) while this may be the English Wikipedia, it is not the English Wikipedia solely for those whose native language is English. (bolding in the original)

The question of reliable source support for Cemetery of the Heroes as the English name came up in the prior discussions. Though I am not aware of any requirement that supporting sources be cited when choosing an English article name for an article which has one or more foreign names, I'll mention some sources supporting the English name I used: -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Support This is English Wikipedia, correct? Masterhatch (talk) 05:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I requested the input of other Filipino editors on the issue. However, while this may be the English Wikipedia, there will always be cases where the English name is less common than that of the non-English name.  On this issue, I raised the issue that there are three differing translations for the name, and that there are English-language sources in the Philippines (including major newspapers like the Philippine Daily Inquirer) that use the Filipino name.  Which name should have more authority? --Sky Harbor (talk) 06:35, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't Support (conditional) In my mind the question here is not whether we should use the English term - the policy is rather clear on that matter. If this were the only argument, I would favor using the English term, although I suggest Cemetery of the Heroes (Philippines) rather than plain Cemetery of the Heroes.  It strikes me that Cemetery of the Heroes is a rather general term which would be confusing if allowed to exist on its own as an article name.  However, I submit that the argument against making such a move would not be one of policy, but one of equivalence.  The Libingan ng mga Bayani is a single specific cemetery with a specific name, "Libingan ng mga Bayani" which to my knowledge is not translated into English when used in official documentation.  The usage for the term "cemetery of the heroes" I have seen does far tends to be more like "He will be buried in our cemetery of the heroes, the "Libingan ng mga Bayani". (Whereas official language will refer to a City of Manila rather than Lungsod ng Maynila, and so we use Manila in English Wikipedia.) By the same argument, the specific policy perestroika is not entered in English Wikipedia as "economic restructuring." The translation of the term into English by media does not equivalence make.  If we have a news source that says perestroika means "restructuring" (it literally does, doesn't it?), that does not mean we automatically prefer the article name "Restructuring (Russia)" instead.  Now, if there's an reliable source that says the official name of the specific cemetery is "Libingan ng mga Bayani" AND "Cemetery of the Heroes", i would support a move towards Cemetery of the Heroes (Philippines), as I explained earlier.  Until then, my position is don't support.  But I'm not unreasonable in that regard and do think there's room for argument here. As it turns out, for example, Oath of Allegiance (Philippines) was written in English first, when I had thought all along that the oath's only proper name was "Panatang Makabayan".  Having said all that... can someone please pore through the relevant legislation for the Libingan? Thanks. -- Alternativity (talk) 08:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I found today that, apparently, the original name of the cemetery was "Republic Memorial Cemetery" when established on May 1947. It was renamed to "Libingan ng mga Bayani" by the late President Magsaysay on 27 October 1954. This is according to this source, which probably does not pass WP:RS guideline criteria; I suspect, however, that this information might be verifiable in a reliable source. Anyhow, I don't think that "Republic Memorial Cemetery" is an appropriate English language name for this article. Even though the guideline might not strictly apply to this situation, IMHO the guidance in WP:DUE regarding prominence should be considered here. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 13:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I've seen it referred to as Libingan ng mga Bayani even in English texts. One possible angle for discussion is Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas, which is the official name and is a separate entity (though successor entity) from the Central Bank of the Philippines. In any case, BSP is the preferred term to be used (even in English) rather than CBP. The same case might be said for Libingan ng mga Bayani. A quick look at a Google News search for Libingan shows that English news sources still use the Filipino name. I say, go with the term that English news sources use. --seav (talk) 17:26, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * In addition, here's the official web page of the Libingan at the Philippine Veteran Affairs Office. Note that the website and the web page are in English, but the term used is still Libingan ng mga Bayani. --seav (talk) 17:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment.English name is name used in English, not necessarily translation into English. We use Così fan tutte and Yasukuni Shrine, on this principle. But this means "What do English sources (anywhere in the world) usually call it?"; so Manila Cathedral, not Katedral ng Maynila. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose until RS says that this is the real English translation. I pulled up two republic acts, and . Both call the site Libingan ng mga Bayani despite having the acts written in English-- Lenticel  ( talk ) 12:24, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Lenticel and Seav. It's referred to as "Libingan ng mga Bayani" even in English context. TheCoffee (talk) 20:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: Is it possible that the result of the discussion be applied to the University of the City of Manila, more known even in English as the Pamantasan ng Lungsod ng Maynila? Even in English reports the name "Pamantasan ng Lungsod ng Maynila" is used or the PLM acronym. – Howard  the   Duck  01:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Minor comment. If you really want to be strict about it, the proper English translation of "libingan" is "burial ground", not "cemetery", which is "sementeryo" in Tagalog. :-) --seav (talk) 02:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * added comment. Yes, but Naming_conventions_(use_English) doesn't speak of proper English translations. Rather, it says, "Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works)." I cited some sources above which use "Cemetery of the Heroes". -- Boracay Bill (talk) 22:38, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I know. That's why the comment is labeled as minor and there's a smiley at the end. I wasn't being serious. :-) --seav (talk) 05:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose The native name appears to be more common in contemporary web searches of English language web pages. There is no requirement to translate a name to English if the native name is widely used in English texts. --Polaron | Talk 15:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

dignitaries list
I removed this unverified list due to vandalism. Dignitaries that are truly buried there should be supported by a cite. Otherwise it would be deleted.-- Lenticel ( talk ) 01:19, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Details
How many acres is it and how many are buried here? 63.92.248.121 (talk) 02:27, 15 August 2016 (UTC) Darwin

Lock
Better lock this page for the time being. Lots of salt. --Razraffion (talk) 15:00, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Requested move: Libingan ng mga Bayani → Heroes' Cemetery

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Page moved. Consensus was to go to a new title. This one seemed to have the most support but there were other options. If one of the other options gets consensus in additional discussions, feel free to move it. Vegaswikian (talk) 08:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Libingan ng mga Bayani → Heroes' Cemetery – I get 36 post-1990 English language Google Book hits for Manila "Libingan ng mga Bayani", compared to 54 for Manila "Heroes' Cemetery", plus another 4 for Manila "Cemetery of Heroes". The current title is an establish usage only in the Philippine English-language media, so it can be considered part of a national variety of English. "Wikipedia tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English," according to MOS:COMMONALITY. If this phrase is considered a Filipino-language phrase, then it must be translated: "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader" (WP:TITLE). This phrase is simply Filipino for "Cemetery of Heroes", so there is no question of the English language lacking le mot juste to describe it. Kauffner (talk) 02:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Usage examples:

 * "President Benigno Aquino III on Friday ruled out a burial for dictator Ferdinand Marcos at the national heroes' cemetery in Manila." Fox News (Associated Press)
 * "Marcos said she will continue her campaign to have her husband buried in the national heroes' cemetery in Manila if she wins." The Guardian (also AP)
 * "President Gloria Arroyo at a ceremony to mark the 20th anniversary of the people's power revolution at the Heroes' Cemetery in Manila on February 22." (The Hindu) Kauffner (talk) 02:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Support - or also support alternative Cemetery of Heroes (Philippines) to distinguish from Cemetery of Heroes (Riga), Cemetery of Heroes (Moscow), Cemetery of Heroes (Paris), Cemetery of Heroes (Helsinki), cf. Kalibata Heroes Cemetery and Heroes' Cemetery which currently redirects to one in Albania, etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support English language title. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:06, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support Cemetery of Heroes (Philippines).  Cemetery of Heroes should be a dabpage for the items identified by In ictu oculi and any others.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:11, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Post-move discussion
Very preposterous that you guys followed AP, The Guardian and The Hindu in naming this page when it's quite obvious that the Philippine media, which used "Libingan ng mga Bayani", are the most frequently cited examples. – H T  D  16:10, 5 December 2011 (UTC)


 * That's however the correct move. FWIW the TMP Kalibata in Jakarta also has the Indonesian name used in official reports, hence Kevin Tan Marshall of Singapore: a biography Page 514 - 2008 "... when Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew visited Indonesia and scattered flower petals on the graves of the two executed marines who had been buried in the Taman Makam Pahlawan Kalibata (Kalibata Heroes Cemetery) in Jakarta.1" ...but WP uses English names where they exist. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:28, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm disinclined to believe that just because references were made to a "heroes' cemetery" in Manila, it automatically means that that is the name of the Libingan ng mga Bayani in English. --Sky Harbor (talk) 00:44, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know about the name, but "the national heroes cemetery" was recently used as an English language translation for "the Libingan ng mga Bayani" in a press release by the Office of the Vice President of the Philippines, and it is pretty common usage . Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 05:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * On the link from the Office of the Vice-President, it seems to clarify what the Libingan ng mga Bayani is, but I interpreted it as not being the name of it per se. The thing that I object from the move is the attempt to establish an official name for the cemetery in English when there isn't one in legal jurisprudence or even in common usage in the Philippines: clarifications on what the Libingan is in English is usually done for the benefit of non-Filipinos, either in print, broadcast or digital media.  WP:TITLE says "Use English titles where they exist", but that doesn't mean that we have to start guessing the "most appropriate English title" under the guise of following policy. --Sky Harbor (talk) 12:26, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader," according to WP:TITLE. Lack of an establish English usage is a not a reason to use a name incomprehensible to English speakers. Many sources translate the name of this subject as either, "national heroes' cemetery," or as "heroes' cemetery". Yeah, I did say all this in the nomination. But I say the personal touch never hurts. Kauffner (talk) 13:05, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The same policy also says "If there are too few English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns, and so on)." As far as I see it, there are not enough English-language sources to constitute established usage: either the sources use the Filipino-language name (as is the case for the majority of English-language sources in the Philippines), or the Filipino name is translated into English and no single translation is predominant (as is the case for sources outside the Philippines, or for clarified sources).  Personal touches don't hurt either, but I think they also ought to be respectful of pre-existing cultural nuances: yes, Wikipedia seeks to inform everyone, but we don't do that if Filipino users will be completely unfamiliar with the name in use. --Sky Harbor (<b style="color:#0066ff;">talk</b>) 13:23, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Nobody translates the names the German politicians or Brazilian towns. The section you refer to is about "anglicized and local spellings" -- you know, umlauts, grave accents, and such like. Kauffner (talk) 06:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Right. As long as we're quoting snippets from that policy subsection, it also says, "In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:50, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The question here is which English-speaking reader should we ought to cater to? While I know Filipino English speakers are a minority among the world's English speakers, I find it preposterous that in one fell swoop, Filipino names common in Philippine English suddenly have to be translated to pander to the greater audience.  Although I'm assuming good faith on the part of the people who supported the move, I won't be surprised if we set a precedent where concerted efforts to move, for example, Batasang Pambansa to "National Legislature" or Lok Sabha to "House of the People", would become prevalent because of this move: where people tend to read into policy a little too much without considering the cultural (and, by extension, linguistic) nuances behind the names in question. --<b style="color:#0066ff;">Sky Harbor</b> (<b style="color:#0066ff;">talk</b>) 23:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe in using common names (see Big Dig for a tunnel project in Boston) if the common name is the clear winner. When not, then you use the official name. It does not matter what language the name is originally from because no word is original to any language, doubly for English, which has so many loan words. For example, America is originally Italian, Massachusetts, native American; and boondocks, Tagalog. Clearly this is close thing. So, which should it be? Perhaps the question shouldn't be "Which is the most common?" but rather "Which is the most searched for?" I suspect that Libingan ng mga Bayani is more Googled then Heroes' Cemetery since the latter is self-explanatory. Given that neither the English nor the Tagalog is clearly the most popular and given that Libingan ng mga Bayani is more likely to be Googled, I oppose the late move and think that the original title was the correct choice. --Bruce Hall (talk) 15:25, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with this analysis, but I disagree with the statement that "neither the English nor the Tagalog is clearly the most popular". The Filipino name is, by and large, the more popular name among Filipino English speakers, whether or not the name is in Filipino. --<b style="color:#0066ff;">Sky Harbor</b> (<b style="color:#0066ff;">talk</b>) 08:31, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Does anyone think a third RM is in store now? – H T  D  05:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I dunno if I will initiate a new RM about this, despite my favoring of the use of "Libingan ng mga Bayani" (which is somehow precise and comprehensive to the topic intended, not to mention that most Filipinos use the Filipino name which is tantamount to WP:COMMONNAME). Also, Kauffner's argument seems erroneous because this is the article of an institution or landmark, not biography or toponym (place names). Nevertheless, I'm discouraged from making such attempt because of another unsuccessful RM: at the government institution article Commission on the Filipino Language (Talk:Commission on the Filipino Language). Also pinging sir for some insight. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 09:02, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * 2020 discussion
 * I guess waiting for 7 years is a long enough wait for an RM. Howard the Duck (talk) 11:55, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 25 July 2020
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 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Heroes' Cemetery → Libingan ng mga Bayani – Previous page move in December 2011 was done swiftly, without the inputs of other Wikipedia:TAMBAYAN members. And per inputs of many Filipino Wikipedians on the talkpage it can be considered that Libingan ng mga Bayani is the most suitable name, because:


 * WP:PRECISE - Heroes' Cemetery is somewhat ambiguous. This Libingan ng mga Bayani is more exact and precise.
 * WP:COMMONNAME - the widespread usage of Libingan ng mga Bayani among Filipinos. To use 's input in the post-move discussion, I believe that Libingan ng mga Bayani is more widely searched than Heroes' Cemetery.
 * Two sources presented above - from AP/Fox and The Guardian, used lowercase letters. Hence they just translated it unofficially and on the verge of neologism. I also feel that OVP and CNN Philippines sources made up the English name to just suit to their English usage.
 * With regards to the COMMONALITY, it doesn't mean that every people on Earth will expect to read this or edit this. This is a cemetery in the Philippines and the topic follows the Philippine format and norms. This includes the usage of the name that Filipinos typically use. That is Libingan ng mga Bayani.
 * This is also to be consistent with the Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas. But for some reason the move attempt of Comission on the Filipino Language to Komisyon sa Wikang Filipino wasn't made successfully, despite the fact that User:Austronesier mentioned the majority of hits in Google Scholar for KWF (Scholar is far more reliable in scholarly community than ordinary Google searches). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 07:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose because this is English Wikipedia, so USEENGLISH. Suggest Heroes' Cemetery (Philippines). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:30, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * if this is your stand, are you also suggesting to rename Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas to "Central Bank of the Philippines"? JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 08:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:25, 25 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Support Our policy is to use what English language sources commonly call a subject -- NOT that only English language translations are acceptable. It's why we can have Eiffel Tower but also Notre-Dame de Paris (not Our Lady of Paris), Sagrada Família (not Holy Family) or Lok Sabha (not House of the People). I did a Google news search for both titles -- Heroes' Cemetery came up just under 2,000, and the proposed title came up with over 5,000, all of which seem to be in English-language coverage.--Yaksar (let's chat) 14:15, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong comment WP:USEENGLISH—in spite of its imperative shortcut—is not a prescriptive policy that by all means demands the use of English terms, but a subpolicy of WP:COMMONNAME which recommends to use the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources (emphasis added). This is why we don't say Elysian Fields (Paris), but Champs-Élysées (cf. also Katipunan, Kuomintang, KGB etc.). The Philippines have a public discourse that is a perfectly bilingual, so there should be no lack of English-language sources to consult, in order to find out what actually is the common name. Just for fun, Google search results:
 * - "the Libingan ng mga Bayani": 106 hits (with "the" in front to ensure it's an English source).
 * - "Heroes' Cemetery"+"philippines": 101 hits.
 * I won't do ngram, because it's unreliable (see Talk:Commission on the Filipino Language) Try to dig deeper in this direction to strengthen your point. At the moment, I have seen no convincing argument for me to !vote either "support" or "oppose". –Austronesier (talk) 14:31, 25 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Reply to  upon a casual browse at Category:Central banks, there are some articles under this category that are not "complying" (violating!?) with WP:USEENGLISH and yet they are still in their titles other than English, like (as of today) Oesterreichische Nationalbank, Banco del Estado de Chile, Danmarks Nationalbank, Deutsche Bundesbank, Banque du Liban, and Banco de Portugal (I don't know if there were RM attempts on them before). This signifies the veracity of Yaksar 's insight which is WP:USEENGLISH is not compulsory, nor it is mandatory for "all" 6 mil+ articles (correct me if I'm wrong in the current total number of enwiki articles). Let's not get out of the Philippines: the institutions Universidad de Manila, Malacañang sa Sugbo, and Municipio de San Fernando are in non-English languages (not University of Manila, Malacañang in Cebu, and San Fernando City/Town Hall). Hence it can be accepted that the best title of a certain article is the title that the true audience of the said article most understand. This is one of my chief interpretations of WP:COMMONNAME, and for many of us here, that common name is "Libingan ng mga Bayani." It also steers clear of potential past arguments between "Heroes' Cemetery," "Cemetery of the Heroes," or "Heroes' Cemetery (Philippines)." JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 12:05, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Additional: Another article that uses non-English name, also about a Metro Manila institution, is Bantayog ng mga Bayani. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.