Talk:Light Warriors (8-Bit Theater)

Merging
This article makes no sense as a standalone. The way it is now, it needs the context of the Characters of 8-Bit Theater article. It also can't easily be found by a search for "black mage," which is what most people will search for - his surname is, in the context of the comic, not much more than a minor detail. To merit the single article it would need a serious overhaul (which, incidentally, it does anyway for the ridiculous amount of unnecessary and redundant information contained) and possibly be moved to "Black Mage (8-Bit Theater) for greater accessibility. The same goes for its three counterparts. --R. Wolff 11:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: this was a comment on the separate articles for each character. It's fine now. --R. Wolff 08:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

No merge
I wouldn't merge this page if I was you. He and the other three are major characters in a popular webcomic. Would you like it if I merged the Batman character article with the Batman comics article, huh?
 * Take a look at the AFD debate linked above. Delete/Merge grossly outnumber the votes for keep.  The problem with this article, is that it's filled with subtrivial minutae which has led to it being so large.  The difference between this, Batman, Street Fighter and Dennis the Menace is that they have had great cultural and economic impact than this ever will.  There was a suggestion in the AFD, that the 4 main characters be merged into a "main characters" article, and the other characters to be merged into a "minor character" article, that sounds perfectly reasonable.  Still, I think there needs to be some cutting involved, for example, in the Fighter McWarrior article, there's a whole paragraph speculating on the character's intelligence made from odd bits from comics. - Hahnch  e  n 12:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * To quote, "they (Batman, Street Fighter, Dennis the Menace) have had great cultural and economic impact than this ever will." First off, I could easily say that a whole bunch of others things had a bigger ecinomical/cultural impact as well. Going by that argument, I could say that those are meaningless and merge them into smaller articles. Second, how do you know that 8-bit will never exceed the cultral/ecinomical impact? You can hypothisis, but you cannot know this for a fact. Forth, you know nothing of the subject at hand so you really shouldn't be editing it. Now I'm splitting them up again. Why? Differant charachters, differant articles.
 * Screw it. Some things are just not worth my time.
 * I concur with Hahnchen. While the AfD indicated there was some desire to keep this information in Wikipedia, it was clear it shouldn't be maintained in separate articles.  There is a lot of overlap between the main characters, so maintaining an individual article for the Light Warriors makes more sense than one for each.  The names of the Light Warriors could all redirect to a new article, perhaps called Light Warriors (8-Bit Theater), and then the data could be kept in one place.  –Abe Dashiell (t/c) 12:54, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with the Light Warriors (8-Bit Theater) idea. Popping it back into the big characters article wouldn't work since it'd be too big. I can see certain individuals wont shut up until these articles are gone, so this seems like a reasonable compromise. Yes, the articles need cutting down, I agree. And to answer the statement "It also can't easily be found by a search for "black mage,"", I agree with that as well. Maybe there should be a line at the top that states "This deals with the character class in Final Fantasy. For the 8-bit theater character, see Light Warriors (8-Bit Theater) or something like that. Crimson Shadow 14:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Merged
I have made a quick and dirty merge of the four light warriors. It seems like there's a lot of extra baggage on these entries, but I am not sufficiently familiar with the comic to know which parts to cut out and what to keep. A good rule of thumb, though is to cut out anything you can't readily find sources for. In other words, if it looks like it's speculation, it should go. I have also modified the Characters article to point at this one instead of the individual articles. –Abe Dashiell (t/c) 21:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Trimming
I've done some major trimming work. To anyone looking to expand it again, just remember: this is an encyclopedia, not a fan site. Full character biographies are the last thing we need. - Kalarchis 00:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Good work on the trim, both here and on the characters article. Before I had a difficult time wading through all the trivia, but now it's much clearer.  It should be easier to find references for, too. –Abe Dashiell (t/c) 03:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Good job on the merge. Glad to see most of the crap is gone, hopefully forever. Crimson Shadow 06:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Huh, someone deleted the little change I made to BM's name the other day. Is it really so wrong to expand it to Black Mage Evilmcwizardington "Mos Anted"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.210.215.231 (talk • contribs)
 * Yes, it was necessary. That was part of a small story arc (as far as we can tell) and a funny spoof of The Usual Suspects. It's pretty obvious that his name is not that. -- RevRagnarok  Talk Contrib Reverts 13:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I've done some major trimming work. To anyone looking to expand it again, what Kalarchis said. --R. Wolff 15:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Separation of Black Mage
While I do agree that it's not especially notable, it does seem to be a longer-term change than, say, Black Mage's hand getting cut off (which had potential but turned out to be a one-time joke). We should at least make mention of it, though one sentence will suffice until we find out what effects his separation has on the story. If the group does find back together in the next few comics, we can still delete it.

There's also the question of when the storyarc is over. Who's to say it won't last until the end of the comic? I don't think so, mind, and I think it's very unlikely, but we really can't say. --R. Wolff 10:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If it lasts for a significant amount of time and/or has major influence on the story, I'd support adding it. But right now we can't be sure of either. Crimson Shadow 02:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Seems he's fallen back into the hands of the Warriors, after about 13 episodes of separation. Worth a mention? Doubtful, unless it has as-yet unforseen implications. I'd suggest not mentioning it. Crimson Shadow 06:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Curses, Clevinger has fooled me again! --R. Wolff 19:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed the hidden note we put in about the storyarc. I expect we'll still get plenty of edits related to BM's cobbling activites, though. - Kalarchis 02:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you sure it doesn't deserve at least one sentence of mention, though? So far, he was the only character to leave the group for that long, and stayed away from them longer than he was king of hell. He even re-joined unwillingly, due to White Mage threatening to shove her hammer down his throat.
 * If you think about it, his separation eventually led to the destruction of the community center, which in turn caused Black Mage to flee from White Mage, making the Light Warriors depart before they were supposed to. So it actually did have an effect on the plot, somewhat...
 * Okay, so it's an extremely minor effect. I still think it deserves a sentence of mention.
 * 64.175.36.108 03:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thief was separated from the group for a while after they found the antidote for his father. As for the effect on the plot, they would have gone to the sea shrine anyway (on account of the game's story going like this) - the only effect was that this way it was more convuluted. :) It doesn't actually have any effects in the long run that we know of yet. --R. Wolff 17:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Just thinking there. Couldn't the cobbler thing be another of BM's attempts to turn a new leaf, like in this strip? Crimson Shadow 21:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but seeing as he killed the original cobbler first thing, an attempt it remains. ^^ --R. Wolff 17:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

At the very least couldn't this be used as an example of how clearly BM doesn't want ot be a light warrior? - Bisected8 19:17, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Black Mage's Conscience
As shown in episode 186, Black Mage's conscience consists of his evil side and his more evil side. I'll add this for now. This seems of lesser importance, but still useful in describing BM's character. So feel free to revert, but offer a reasonalbe explanation why you did. You Can&#39;t See Me! 06:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's very useful for describing his character, thanks for adding it. I took the liberty to shorten it a bit, though - I don't think we need to describe that incident in detail. --R. Wolff 13:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

What the hell kinda a$$hole doesn't have a conscience? Seriously, he's like the "Cartman" of 8-Bit Theatre only he gets away with a LOT more crap than he should. Personally, I started out reading it because it was kinda funny, but now I'm reading it just to see Black Mage get some serious comeuppance.

With Black Mage being a clinical psychopath (as I myself have diagnosed him), I feel that it's only logical that Black Mage has no good part of his conscience (his conscience is split up between his evil side and atrociously evil side), despite real psychopaths having no actual conscience in reality. Just wanted to express my opinion on the matter. Cat&#39;s Tuxedo 13:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Black Mage's bio
I noticed that near the beginning of this section it says BM's actually a "nexus" of some sort. I don't recall reading this in any of the strips and I was wondering if the author may have been mistaken by Fighter's speech during their first random encounter, where he describes BM as "a nexus of power".-Bisected8 19:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Where've you been during the whole Class Change storyarc? =P Nah, but seriously, look here, here and here . That's perfectly legitimate. Good call though, lord knows some edits are full of this kinda stuff.--R. Wolff 18:51, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * ....I'll shut up now. - Bisected8 13:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Should the bios be written to a standard format
What I mean by this is perhaps the bio should be written so that the first paragraph of a bio could give an outline of their history, the next their personality, their abilities and so on. Hopefully this would make the article more tidy. - Bisected8 20:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually that's what I tried to do. =P First paragraph is personality and abilities, second paragraph is reasons for adventuring and role in the group, then come the specifics as far as they're relevant (Black Mage becoming King of Hell and Fighter's Sword-Chucks), and finally a paragraph about the class change. The main reason those paragraphs tend to be about two aspects at once is that they'd be a bit on the short side otherwise. --R. Wolff 21:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a paragraph for abilities should added then? The "Hadoken" on BM's bio looks a bit OOP - Bisected8 17:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, any special abilities are highly insecure, for lack of a better word. Take the old argument about Black Mage having a teleport spell - one episode he uses one, later he says he never learned one. Brian Clevinger has stated several times that the characters have exactly those abilities they need at that point in time for a joke to work - excluding, I'd presume, majorly character-defining traits. On those grounds I'd argue that any listing of abilities beyond "good at fighting/stealing/magic" is unnecessary. That should be enough to describe a character, too.


 * As for the Hadoken, that is a fairly major trait, but I agree it looks out of place. I could try and merge it into the main BM section (but I don't think that was what you were aiming for =P). --R. Wolff 17:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Mandatory Merge
The creator of 8 Bit theater would like this entry merged completely with the 8-Bit Theater article as shown here http://forum.nuklearpower.com/showthread.php?t=16420 Linknumbers 04:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)Linknumbers
 * The creator hasn't commented on the thread, actually. I would like to see it merged, but I'm not writing 8-Bit Theater. (I did make that thread though.)
 * EDIT: Maybe I should sign then. :B --R. Wolff 17:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The idea of a merger sounds appropriate, but I sense that a lot of cuts will be needed to get everything to fit, especially since the plot synopsis is being considered for a merger into the main article as well. If that should happen, then... Well, what would you think if Naruto Uzumaki had less information than Gato? In other words, the Characters of 8-Bit Theater article would have to be drastically cut down, and it will result in less information than appropriate.
 * I'd much rather merge in the Plot Synopsis to that article, and keep this here. You Can&#39;t See Me! 00:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, I think we should merge this article, too. If we can explain their personalities in a plot synopsis (which will probably be merged anyway), do we really need a separate article? --Surnólë 16:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I feel that the last edit was kind of unnecessary. Fighting their personal ordeals was one of the more serious points in the plot, especially since it led to their class changes and was something they each had to face alone. Trimming the ordeal paragraphs would be good (to the point where it just tells the reader what sin they faced, that Black Mage fought Thief's ordeal, and how they each learned nothing after they defeated them). Also, Red Mage's plan were good against Kraken, as he knew the kraken's weakness and also single-handedly defeated Kraken. --Jopasopa 17:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point with the ordeals, but Red Mage was never able to tell the others what his plan was, so we don't know if his plan worked or not.--Surnólë 00:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd also just want to point out that Mr. Cleavinger has not finished updating his Characters page yet. In the meantime, he has left us with this message, linking to Wikipedia's character pages. Until he's done with that, I think that the character pages should be revised and kept in top shape, but not deleted or merged.
 * You Can&#39;t See Me! 22:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Two points this: First of all, we are in no way obligated to do Brian's work for him, Wikipedia is not a fansite or a web hosting service. It's an encyclopedia. Second, he wrote that a long time before this page was created, therefore you have merely illustrated that he thought the character article quite sufficient before this page was ever created.
 * In any case, the character bios wouldn't have to be trimmed so much that they're shorter than the bios of the minor characters to fit in the main characters article. Nor would it really require that they contain less information than is appropriate. I simply do not see any convincing reason to split these bios away from the ones for the rest of the cast. They help provide context for these, and its not like it reduces from their prominence or anything. Not to mention that there is no precedent for splitting the character pages of a web comic into main and minor character pages, no other web comic article that I've seen has done anything similar. In short I believe that this page should be merged and unless someone comes up with a convincing reason to the contrary I'm going to nominate it for merger.
 * --DarthVader1219 00:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Huge apologies
Sorry, new pop-up user and I inadvertently reverted good changes, twice. WLU 19:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Since the second revert reverted the first revert, you didn't actually do anything at all. Regardless, I think you should practice using pop-ups in a sandbox or something before you actually manage to damage something.
 * --DarthVader1219 00:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Surnames
Regarding BM and Fighter's "last names", those were made up by Figher. I really don't think we can accept those as canon. -Zero.exe

Brian had said that they were originally throwaway gags, but then he seems to hint that they are very well canon. Also, Red Mage had used Fighter's last name later. --Jopasopa 20:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Wrath?
It says in Black Mage's article that his doppelganger is "presumably the incarnation of wrath". I thought the point of it being a doppelganger was that the regular monsters they have representing sins didn't cut it. And seeing as there's nothing to confirm it in the comic I'll edit it.--Something unpredictable 10:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

F-word
It says "the comic's only instance of the word "fuck"." under BM's section, but he is clearly seen saying it again in 687. Maybe we can say the only "clearly visible instance"? --Jopasopa 12:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

"Toward almost everyone..."
Everyone he knows and everyone he doesn't know would logically require it to be everyone, in entirety. Show me how I'm wrong. --75.2.39.183 08:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit from April 8 to Black Mage
Explaining said edit by me.


 * The list of adjectives at the start was getting ridiculously long. We don't need to list every single thing, just explain what his character is generally like.
 * A face can't really be more non-Euclidean than anything else.
 * We don't need to retell little details like Matoya looking up lottery numbers, that's what led to this article being stuffed with insignificant info in the past.
 * Is the fact that he said "fuck" really all that important? Even if you decide it is, I'd refrain from explaining every nuance of the event, or someone will mention how the word was transparent, too.

--R. Wolff 18:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * She said she was looking for lottery numbers, so it should be in; I know I'd make use of such little details no one looks for in future references, just so people can feel dumb for not knowing. His general character, if actually accurately presented, would be: "Black Mage is the most evil character in the history of fiction."  Totally NPOV, that; saying he's totally badass, on the other hand, would be POV, despite being true. We could say his face was so insanity-inducing that it induces insanity, perhaps. Lastly, yes, it is quite important, because the FCC gets so up in arms about it, and BM lines don't give a damn. --Chr.K. 05:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The FCC regulates webcomic content? The word is all over the internet, 8BT doesn't break a major taboo. Still, while I'd argue it's not significant, I'm not objecting to mentioning it in passing. Only the whole "first occurrence but only first real occurrence but spread over two panels (but in large letters, but transparent, but only half transparent etc.)" thing struck me as ridiculously detail-obsessed. --R. Wolff 14:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Red Mage's "Transvestite Urges"
Shouldn't something about the running theme of Red Mage cross dressing be added to his section? Just look at the following:

This is the firs time Red Mage cross dresses. He does it out of necessity and is not the only one to do so. However, he wears high heels and readily assumes the name "Debora."

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030116 http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030118 http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030121 http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030123 http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030125

Afterwards, a small miscomunication results in Red Mage cross dressing instead of cross checking.

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=060504

Then, Black Mage, in reference to Red Mage, states he has "long, hippy hair and dresses."

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=060902

Finally, at the mention of selling services, Red Mage readily changes into his feminine outfit and declares "Can do!" He also doesn't change back for several comics.

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=070421 http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=070424 http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=070426

It seems it would be appropriate to add something about Red Mage's transvestism here. Any thoughts? Jaimeastorga2000 02:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=040518


 * I don't see what it says about his character that's not already in there one way or another. --R. Wolff 15:16, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * And just how is that? In just about every instance in which he has worn clothing of the opposite gender, he has proved to be far more stereotypically effeminate than his companions by wearing high heels and stating his ass has never looked so good. How is this not a facet of his personality? I mean, Fighter has got a mention of his arachnophobia, a fact that is only expounded in a what's literally a couple of comics, not to mention is ostensibly not nearly as notable as transvestism. At the very least, I believe Red Mage being a cross-dresser deserves a sentence of mention. Jaimeastorga2000 06:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, but what does it imply in the context of his character? Finding the almighty stat/class combination is a driving force for him, so we've got the thing about his knowledge of the rules in there. We also mention is knack for making plans, and those have a huge effect on the overall story, especially the Fiend battles. His being a transvestite is, at most, a prominent running gag. Then again, I suppose it could be a good example for his overall character... tell you what, as long as we don't give every little detail about it, I'm okay with including it.


 * Oh, and I took out the arachnophobia thing because, as you rightly said, it's even less of a driving force of huge plot point or, well, anything but a small gag for Fighter. --R. Wolff 10:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:BlackMage.PNG
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Fair use rationale for Image:FighterKnight.gif
Image:FighterKnight.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 07:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Thief
Where it says:

"His stealing abilities were increased as well, even to the point where he could steal things from the future, as he did with his class change, and alter the past (he said he stole his outfit from the future), which constituted him retroactively changing his costume from red to black."

How do we know they've been increased? He's been able to steal things that don't exist and fill an infinite bag of holding way before that. Those sound more impressive (although for argument's sake, we'll say they're on the same scale) than stealing from the future. --Jopasopa 02:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, we really don't. All we have to go by is what Thief said himself, and he's known for not being the most reliable narrator, so to speak. Then again it is the only thing we have to go by. Apart from all that I really don't think Clevinger's color-changing joke can in any way be read as Thief having the ability to alter the past. In fact that joke is fairly hard to explain concisely without getting into too much detail and might be better off left out of the description entirely. I'll make according changes. --R. Wolff 22:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

It said yesterday that thief was married, and I read the comic after that. Who deleted that?!? kaseidg
 * I did. Thief being married has no significance for either the plot or his character at this point. --R. Wolff 14:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:BlackMageKing.JPG
Image:BlackMageKing.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 19:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thief (Again!)
In it the article has a link to the Keebler Cookie Company. I get that it may be a play on words but...seriously? A cookie company?Wise dude321 (talk) 06:39, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The joke might not be particularly obvious to everyone. I don't see a problem with such a subtle explanation.  bahamut0013 ♠  ♣   13:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Refrences
Since the creator of the comic redesigned the website, he changed all of the links to archived comics. None of the references are currently working. Someone needs to fix them. 1:15 EST 24 April 2009
 * Nuklear Power changed the comic archive system, and as such, all the links to the comics are broken. 24.20.225.158 (talk) 00:23, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * All links on this page have been fixed and tested. However, I noticed that there are multiple duplicated references on this page. The Characters page does not have this problem, but I don't know how to fix that problem at the moment. Primalmoon (talk) 07:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've taken care of the duplicates. Excellent job! You can learn more at Footnotes.  bahamut0013  words deeds   09:43, 16 May 2009 (UTC)