Talk:Liliʻuokalani's Privy Council of State

Politician

 * Hawaiian office records

29th of January 1891 (the date she ascended to the throne)
Her Majesty the Queen, presiding.


 * Honorable Albert Francis Judd, Chief Justice.

Their Excellencies
 * Godfrey Brown, Minister of Finance
 * John Adams Cummins, Minister of Foreign Affairs
 * Charles Nichols Spencer, Minister of the Interior

• The Honorables.

• William DeWitt Alexander

• John E. Bush

• Archibald Scott Cleghorn

• Samuel Mills Damon

• John Owen Dominis

• John Ena (November 18, 1845 – December 12, 1906) born Hilo, died Los Angeles

• Frederick H. Hayselden (1851 – January 2, 1924) born in England

• William George Irwin (1843 – January 28, 1914) born in England, family moved to Hawaii 1849 died San Francisco

• Junius Kaae

• David Kahanu (January 15, 1823 – October 11, 1911), invested in awa with James Isaac Dowsett

• John Lota Kaulukou

• Edward Kamakau Lilikalani (1852 – November 8, 1917) obit says he was a Hawaiian chief, but gives no details

• Lawrence McCully

• Samuel Parker (Hawaii)

• Antone Rosa

• William E Rowell (June 27, 1845 – March 18, 1918) son of Rev. George B. Rowell of 10th co of missioninaries

• William James Smith (August 24, 1839 – March 22, 1896) born in Papoia, Tahiti. Son of Joseph H. Smith, family moved to Hawaii in 1845

• Alfred N. Tripp ( – December 28, 1913) whaler born in Massachusetts

• John Smith Walker

• John T. Waterhouse Jr (July 7, 1841 – March 2, 1896) born in Tasmania, family moved to Hawaii when he was 9 years old

• Henry Martyn Whitney

April 9th" 1891
Her Majesty, presided.


 * His Royal Highness the Prince Consort, John Owen Dominis

Their Excellencies
 * Samuel Parker (Hawaii), Minister of Foreign Affairs
 * Charles Nichols Spencer, Minister of the Interiors
 * Hermann A. Widemann, Minister of Finance

• Honorables

• Joseph Ballard Atherton (November 9, 1837 – April 7, 1903) Born in Boston, moved to Hawaii 1859

• Richard Frederick Bickerton (April 4, 1884 – December 10, 1895) Born in Greenwich, England, moved to Melbourne, Australia with his parents, lived in Victoria, British Columbia, then San Francisco. Moved to Hawaii 1864

• Joseph O. Carter

• Archibald Scott Cleghorn

• Samuel Mills Damon

• John Ena

• Frederick H. Hayselden

• John Green Hoapili

• Albert Francis Judd

• Junius Kaae

• David Kahanu

• Edward Kamakau Lilikalani

• Lawrence McCully

• Paul Neumann (Attorney General)

• Franklin Seaver Pratt

• Antone Rosa

• William James Smith

• Alfred N. Tripp

• John Smith Walker

• John T. Waterhouse Jr

• Henry Martyn Whitney

31st" day of August 1891
Hon. Albert Francis Judd. presided. Present. His Royal Highness Prince David Kawānanakoa

Their Excellencies
 * Samuel Parker (Hawaii), Minister of Foreign Affairs
 * Charles Nichols Spencer, Minister of the Interiors
 * John Mott-Smith, Minister of Finance

• Honorables

• William DeWitt Alexander

• William Fessenden Allen

• Joseph Ballard Atherton

• Richard Frederick Bickerton

• Joseph O. Carter

• William H. Cornwell

• John Adams Cummins

• Samuel Mills Damon

• Sanford B. Dole

• John Green Hoapili

• Curtis P. Iaukea, Secretary.

• William George Irwin

• Daniel Paul Rice Isenberg (June 11, 1866 – April 12, 1919)

• Junius Kaae

• David Kahanu

• Edward Kamakau Lilikalani

• Paul Neumann (Attorney General)

• John Richardson (Hawaii) (December 15, 1853 – June 25, 1917)

• Antone Rosa

• Alfred N. Tripp

• John Smith Walker

• John T. Waterhouse Jr

• Henry Martyn Whitney

• Charles Burnett Wilson

December 18th" 1891
Her Majesty the Queen, presiding. Present. Their Excellencies
 * Samuel Parker (Hawaii), Minister of Foreign Affairs
 * Charles Nichols Spencer, Minister of the Interiors

• William DeWitt Alexander

• William Fessenden Allen

• Joseph Ballard Atherton

• Richard Frederick Bickerton

• Archibald Scott Cleghorn

• John Adams Cummins

• Sanford B. Dole

• John Ena

• Abraham Kaleimahoe Fernandez (June 22, 1857 – June 14, 1915) Elder in the Morman church

• Curtis P. Iaukea

• Albert Francis Judd

• David Kahanu

• H. R. H. Prince David Kawānanakoa

• Edward Kamakau Lilikalani

• John Richardson (Hawaii)

• Antone Rosa

• Alfred N. Tripp

• Henry Martyn Whitney

• Hermann A. Widemann

• Charles Burnett Wilson

April 21st 1892
Hon. Albert Francis Judd Chancellor, presided.

Their Excellencies
 * Samuel Parker (Hawaii), Minister of Foreign Affairs
 * Charles Nichols Spencer, Minister of the Interiors
 * William Austin Whiting, Attorney General
 * Hermann A. Widemann, Minister of Finance

• Hons.

• William DeWitt Alexander

• William Fessenden Allen

• Richard Frederick Bickerton

• Charles Reed Bishop

• Archibald Scott Cleghorn

• William H. Cornwell

• John Adams Cummins

• Samuel Mills Damon

• Sanford B. Dole

• John Ena

• Curtis P. Iaukea

• William George Irwin

• David Kahanu

• Prince David Kawānanakoa

• Edward Kamakau Lilikalani

• Paul Neumann (Attorney General)

• Franklin Seaver Pratt

• John Richardson (Hawaii)

• Antone Rosa

• William James Smith

• Alfred N. Tripp

• John Smith Walker

• John T. Waterhouse

• Charles Burnett Wilson

July 8th" 1892
Hon. Albert Francis Judd, Chancellor, presided.

Present, Their Excellency's


 * Samuel Parker (Hawaii). Minister of Foreign Affairs
 * Charles Nichols Spencer, Minister of the Interiors
 * William Austin Whiting, Attorney General
 * Hermann A. Widemann, Minister of Finance

• Hons.

• William Fessenden Allen

• Joseph Ballard Atherton

• Richard Frederick Bickerton

• Joseph O. Carter

• Archibald Scott Cleghorn

• William H. Cornwell

• Samuel Mills Damon

• Abraham Kaleimahoe Fernandez

• John Green Hoapili

• Curtis P. Iaukea, Secretary

• William George Irwin

• David Kahanu

• John K. Kaunamano (c. 1830 – May 3, 1902)

• Prince David Kawānanakoa

• Edward Kamakau Lilikalani

• Paul Neumann (Attorney General)

• Franklin Seaver Pratt

• John Richardson (Hawaii)

• James W. Robertson

• Alfred N. Tripp

• John Smith Walker

• John T. Waterhouse Jr

• Henry Martyn Whitney

August 31st 1892
Hon. Richard Frederick Bickerton, presided.

Present. Their Excellencies
 * Paul Neumann, Attorney General
 * Samuel Parker (Hawaii), Minister of Foreign Affairs
 * Charles Nichols Spencer, Minister of the Interiors
 * Hermann A. Widemann, Minister of Finance

• Honorables

• William Fessenden Allen

• Joseph Ballard Atherton

• Charles Reed Bishop

• Joseph O. Carter

• Archibald Scott Cleghorn

• Samuel Mills Damon

• John Ena

• John Green Hoapili

• Curtis P. Iaukea

• William George Irwin

• John K. Kaunamano

• Edward Kamakau Lilikalani

• John Richardson (Hawaii)

• Antone Rosa

• Alfred N. Tripp

• John Smith Walker

• John T. Waterhouse Jr.

• Henry Martyn Whitney

November 15th" 1892
Hon. Albert Francis Judd presided.

Present.

Their Excellencies
 * Cecil Brown (Hawaii politician), Attorney General
 * Peter Cushman Jones, Minister of Finance
 * Mark Prever Robinson, Minister of Foreign Affairs
 * George Norton Wilcox, Minister of the Interior

• Hons.

• William Fessenden Allen

• Joseph Ballard Atherton

• Richard Frederick Bickerton

• Joseph O. Carter

• Archibald Scott Cleghorn

• Abraham Kaleimahoe Fernandez

• John Green Hoapili

• Curtis P. Iaukea

• William George Irwin

• John K. Kaunamano

• Prince David Kawānanakoa

• Edward Kamakau Lilikalani

• Samuel Parker (Hawaii)

• Franklin Seaver Pratt

• William James Smith

• Alfred N. Tripp

• John Smith Walker

• John T. Waterhouse Jr

• Henry Martyn Whitney

• Charles Burnett Wilson

I already made a complete list using the records of the Privy Council of State. See User:KAVEBEAR/Liliuokalani. A table will be a monumental task because the list of privy councilor is pretty big. There may be a few missing because the queen could have appointed privy councilors between the last documented meeting November 15, 1892 and the overthrow. Those you may have to search newspaper articles to see direct appointment announcements. Also some others appear to be missing because they didn't attend the meetings such as David Hopeni Nahinu who is listed in Thrum's Almanac but was not in any of the meetings. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:14, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Individuals from Thrum 1891 absent from the Minutes of the Privy Council


 * Godfrey Rhodes
 * George W. Macfarlane
 * Paul P. Kanoa
 * John Tamatoa Baker
 * Robert Hoapili Baker
 * David Hopeni Nahinu
 * George E. Richardson (middle name Edward, brother of John Richardson )
 * Individuals from Thrum 1892 absent from the Minutes of the Privy Council. Same as above


 * G. Rhodes,
 * G W Macfarlane
 * P P Kanoa,
 * J T Baker,
 * R H Baker,
 * D.H Nahinu
 * Geo Richardson,
 * Individuals from Thrum 1893 absent from the Minutes of the Privy Council


 * G. Rhodes,
 * G W Macfarlane
 * P P Kanoa,
 * J T Baker,
 * R H Baker,
 * D.H Nahinu
 * Geo Richardson,
 * George Charles Moʻoheau Beckley (only new one)


 * Well, you are saving me a lot of time. I think cabinet ministers and privy councils are keys to understanding why given scenarios happened during anybody's reign.  At least for me.  After I did the cabinet minister lists, it really helped me as to who was on the scene when historic events happened.


 * It's funny how we get our individual mental images of historic figures. I see Liliuokalani the way I always have - the level-headed monarch, standing firm and unwilling to give an inch when faced with adverse circumstances.  Kalakaua unfolds as a much more complicated individual - really smart, a steamroller of political ambition, and seemingly loaded with charismatic people skills when needed. He also comes across as too self-indulgent ... and the #1 guest you'd want to invite to a fraternity party. — Maile  (talk) 00:55, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Alpha Order
Within the dates given, I organized the names in alpha order. It's just easier that way, especially since many of the names appear in multiple years. — Maile (talk) 20:25, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The dates are ultimately arbitrary. They are not terms just when they met as a body. I would suggest just listing each individual once and there date of service (in the state archive source); some have been privy councilors since Kalakaua’s reign. I don’t know what is the best way to organize this. Check out Privy Council of the Kingdom of Hawaii as well. KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:58, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I saw your new Privy Council article, by the way, and am really glad you created it. You've been reading my mind, sort of, on this list. pruning it down exactly as you suggest - each individual once, with their list of service. Even at that, it's sizeable, I think. — Maile  (talk) 21:51, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I did a quick list from the original names you had, and I come up with 49 names. Privy Council of State/Alpha. Adding to that, the 8 names you list above. So, 57 names, if I counted correctly.     We could do a non-sortable table similar to the cabinet minister tables.  Kalakaua's cabinet ministers has 39 names.  We could go either way.  The plain list looks simple, but once you stick the dates after each name, it doubles the list, or more if individual dates each have a line.  What do you think? — Maile  (talk) 01:59, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I've been trying to find comparable articles but there doesn't seem to be any... I think either way will be fine. KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:35, 4 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I think I'll build it as a table. That gives us a Notes column to explain what each person brought to the table that qualified them as a privy council member. — Maile (talk) 13:40, 4 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I found references for all but one of the 58 names in the table. George W MacFarlane. I'm wondering if that was a Thrum misprint. Edward Creamor Macfarlane was her Minister of Finance, and his name is not in any of this. — Maile  (talk) 23:49, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I don’t think so either. Macfarlane was on the Privy Council of Kalakaua but was not present in the first meeting of the Privy Council on January 29. Ned Macfarlane wasn’t on the Privy Council either since his term falled between two different Privy Council meetings. Cabinet positions doesn’t mean direct membership in the Privy Council (based on the minutes they had to be sworn in) especially how short some of her ministers are. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:33, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Birth-death dates
The birth and death dates are for the red links. It's easier to begin research if you at least know when they died. Some obits give a lot of basic information needed to begin an article. — Maile (talk) 20:28, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Removed - not L's privy council
The following names have been removed from the list of privy council members. Checking with the State of Hawaii records, they were government employees, but not privy council members during her reign:


 * WD Alexander
 * John Bush
 * John Ena
 * John Green Hoapili
 * Paul Kanoa
 * John Lot Kaulukoʻu
 * Edward Kamakau Lilikalani
 * Antone Rosa
 * William E. Rowell
 * William James Smith
 * John Smith Walker

We now have 46 names on the list. — Maile (talk) 14:48, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Wait, what? They are in record as Privy Councilors in the Minutes of the Privy Council. The Hawaii State Archives records are incomplete a lot of the times. For example, George W. Macfarlane was a Privy Councilor for Kalakaua but the archive’s entry for him does not mention that among his list of posts. Notice on his page, I had to cite the minutes for that. Also there is this specific order listing the privy councilors she reappoints in March 7, 1891 and many of these individuals are on there. KAVEBEAR (talk) 15:40, 6 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm reverting my deletion edit. I decided to go one-by-one through Office records, by Office and by individual name. But if you are confident the minutes are correct, let's just revert the list back.  No problem with that. — Maile  (talk) 16:12, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Ready for mainspace?
when you have a time, please look at the article. Is anything missing that should be there? — Maile (talk) 01:15, 7 January 2019 (UTC)


 * And before you ask ... no, I'm not taking on Kalakaua's privy council as a separate article. The list would be too long. — Maile (talk) 01:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Made my changes. I simplify some parts and remove extra bit about Richardson Law center since that is just the organization that digitized it. The original publisher of the minutes would have been the Hawaiian government. Looks good for now. I don't really know what the privy council did of importance during her reign but that can be added later with sources too. KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:46, 7 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Moved to main space now. Thanks for your input.  Between this list, and Liliʻuokalani's Cabinet Ministers, it helps build the picture of who had her ear when important decisions were made. — Maile  (talk) 12:36, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Ready for FLC?
I've gone through this and believe this is ready for FLC. If you concur, please feel free to submit this as a co-nomination. Thanks for all your work and input on this. — Maile (talk) 14:20, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I don’t know if there are limits to nominations. I’m going to hold off for now. KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:05, 5 January 2020 (UTC)


 * It never occurred to me, but you're probably correct. From the instructions, "Nominators should not add a second featured list nomination until the first has gained substantial support", so I guess we cross our fingers that both the Council of State FLCs are allowed. — Maile  (talk) 19:18, 5 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Never mind. I am no longer interesting in putting this up at FLC.  I'm satisfied with what we did here, and I don't need someone else evaluating the work. — Maile  (talk) 21:58, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Which Waterhouse is which on the sourcing?
Another one of those confusing situations where one family kept recycling the name. But other than Hawaii's state archives, it is not so clear to determine which John Thomas Waterhouse is being referred to in sourcing. News sources of the day were not consistent with full names, or the use of "Jr" or "Sr"


 * John Thomas Waterhouse, Jr. Office Record - served on privy councils of both Kalakaua and Liliuokalani
 * John Thomas Waterhouse, Jr. Office Record - served on privy councils of both Kalakaua and Liliuokalani


 * John Waterhouse born in Tasmania in 1841.
 * John Waterhouse born in Tasmania in 1841.


 * Henry Waterhouse born in Tasmania in 1845
 * Henry Waterhouse born in Tasmania in 1845


 * John Waterhouse (born Nov. 20, 1873) was the son of John Thomas, Jr., and Elizabeth B. (Pinder) Waterhouse. A grandson of J. T. Waterhouse, Sr., who was an early settler in Hawaii, coming to the islands from Tasmania in 1851.
 * John Waterhouse (born Nov. 20, 1873) was the son of John Thomas, Jr., and Elizabeth B. (Pinder) Waterhouse. A grandson of J. T. Waterhouse, Sr., who was an early settler in Hawaii, coming to the islands from Tasmania in 1851.


 * Son of John Thomas, Jr., and Elizabeth B. (Pinder) Waterhouse
 * Son of John Thomas, Jr., and Elizabeth B. (Pinder) Waterhouse

— Maile (talk) 15:38, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The Privy Council minutes explicity called him Jr. so it is the son not the father. KAVEBEAR (talk) 15:42, 11 February 2020 (UTC)


 * I understand that. The above are mostly there so if I (or anyone else) creates an article on this person, it helps with sorting out the sources. What I am (sometimes) confused with, is which sources are referrig to Jr., since the sources aren't so clear.  I removed a lengthy source I had put there months ago - which did not say Jr. or Sr. - because upon re-reading it, I think it wasn't about Jr. But it's kind of hard to tell in this case. — Maile  (talk) 15:52, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I see that is confusing. From what I found, John Thomas Waterhouse, Jr (1841-1896) was the person on the Privy Council. John Thomas Waterhouse (1816-1895) is here. John Waterhouse (born in 1873) should have been John Thomas III . Henry Waterhouse on the Committee of Safety was John Jr's brother and John Sr's son. Sons were born in Tasmania while Sr was born in England. Removing image since I believe that shows John Sr.KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:54, 16 February 2020 (UTC)