Talk:Liliʻuokalani/Archive 3

Veto power and 1893 constitution
I am removing the part about restoring veto power because it is not true. Reading the 1893 constitution, it did not "restore" the veto power. The 1887 constitution removed the absolute veto of the king and made it possible for the legislature to overrule his veto. The 1893 constitution did not restore this absolute veto power, instead it obliged the queen to sign any laws repassed by the legislature with a two-thirds majority after her veto. Previously, under the 1887 constitution laws can be passed after the king's veto without the king's signature. Restoring power of the monarchy seems to be exactly what she was doing and the secondary sources are not bashful about stating that. And unless we want to mention every constitutional change in detail in the opening introduction, restoring the power of the monarchy is a correct summary of the proposed changes. Quoting Kuykendall, "The effect of these changes would have been to give the queen more power and more influence over the government than had been possessed by Kalakaua at the beginning of his reign". --KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:02, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

The constitution that Liliuokalani proposed differed from the 1887 constitution in the following respects:
 * Proposed Constitution


 * 1) Members of the privy council, notary public, and agents would be able to run for the legislature.
 * 2) Princess Kaiulani, Prince Kawānanakoa and Prince Kalanianaole would be added to the line of succession.
 * 3) The Queen would be given the power to call meetings of the legislature.
 * 4) The legislature would meet for regular sessions in April instead of May.
 * 5) The Queen’s private lands and other property were made inviolable.
 * 6) The Queen would sign all bills before they became law. Under the 1887 constitution, any bills vetoed by the Queen and then repassed by the legislature with a two-thirds majority would automatically become law without the signature of the Queen. Under the proposed 1893 constitution, the Queen would be obligated to sign all bills repassed by the legislature with a two-thirds majority.
 * 7) The pay of the legislators would be increased from $250 to $500.
 * 8) Nobles would be appointed by the Queen instead of elected.
 * 9) The number of representatives could be increased from 24 to 48.
 * 10) Property requirements for voters were decreased.
 * 11) American and European residents, granted suffrage in 1887, would lose the right to vote.
 * 12) Supreme court judges would be appointed for six years instead of for life.
 * 13) The Queen would be able to appoint governors of each island for four years.


 * All of all these changes, 1 (she appointed those individuals), 3, 5, 6, 8, 13 all increased the queen's power or were to her direct advantage. The rest of the changes decreased the power of the legislative and judiciary branches at the expense of the executive branch. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:08, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Hanai
Is "hanai" a verb or a noun? It's used both ways in the article. Anne with an E (talk) 20:51, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

hā.nai

1. nvs. Foster child, adopted child; foster, adopted. Keiki hānai, foster child. Lawe hānai, to adopt a child. Makua hānai, foster parent. Kāna hānai, his adopted child.

2. nvt. To raise, rear, feed, nourish, sustain; provider, caretaker (said affectionately of chiefs by members of the court). Cf. akua hānai, hanaiāhuhu, hanaina. Hānai holoholona, to feed and care for domestic animals. Makamaka hānai, generous and hospitable friend. Hānai ā momona, to fatten. Hānai maila ʻoia iāia i ka meli (Kanl. 32.13), he fed him the honey. (PPN faangai.)

From Hawaiian dictionary. Does this help you understand? — Maile (talk) 20:59, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It can be used as a verb (he/she hānai), an adjective (the hānai parents), and apparently was used by her three adopted children to refer to the Queen in intimidate circles (according to Helena G. Allen).--KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:19, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanations! Anne with an E (talk) 01:46, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Continuing work
and is there any interest to improve this any further? I think a peer review may help us address some of the last clean up we need in the article to get to GA or FAC.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:21, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, I would still like to work on it but have been on other things the last couple of months. Sure.  A peer review is a great idea. — Maile  (talk) 19:23, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I am still interested in improving the article.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:25, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Great I will go ahead and create the peer review so we can get some outside opinions in wrapping up this project. Mahalo.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:27, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

See Peer review/Liliuokalani/archive1.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:38, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Also this year is the 100th anniversary of his birth, so hopefully we can get it to FA status by then.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:24, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Cite news
I think we should stick to this format for the cite news, working forward. Issue and volume number can be left blank if it is too much to find. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:27, 22 January 2017 (UTC)




 * Agree. — Maile (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Sang or sung
I never quite get when to use one or the other. Cake (talk) 12:55, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Sang is the past perfect or preterite tense: I once sang in Saint Paul's Cathedral / Pavarotti sang in stadiums as well as opera houses. Sung is the past participle, used mainly in passive constructions: The national anthem is usually sung before the game / It can be sung by a man or a woman / It was once sung by Jane Doe. Any help? Awien (talk) 21:34, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * A little difficult for me I suppose given the similarity between "I once sang" and "It was once sung" - though I see now that "sung" seems to need an extra verb (like to be or to have). Thank you. Further and farther is another one which makes me forget I am supposed to know how to speak English. Cake  (talk) 22:20, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Footnote 10 regarding Aloha Oe
Regarding the footnote that says Liliuokalani allowed "Aloha Oe" to be played at the funeral of Henri Berger. Everything I find says he outlived her and died in 1929. Besides Find A Grave and the Wikipedia article, here's



Maybe she allowed it at somebody else's funeral?— Maile (talk) 21:09, 2 February 2017 (UTC) Here are Allen's words: ''Although "Aloha Oe" was sung frequently during Liliuokalani's funeral services, it is now known that she requested it never be sung at any funeral service but one. 21 "It is a love song," she said. "Not a funeral dirge." The one funeral at which she had stated it could be sung was Henry Berger's, whom she had presented with a medal in 1916 which was engraved in Greek and read, ambiguously, "To my beloved server." At that time she also gave him the title of "The Father of Hawaiian Music." The funeral song, because it best symbolized her life, should have been "The Queen's Prayer." But it was not included in the service.''

And then there is The Prison Songs of Lili'uokalani, a 2013 thesis by Cynthia Morris, which brings doubt to Allen's claim: ''According to Helen Allen’s (1982, 399) biography of the Queen, Lili’uokalani had said of “Aloha Oe” that, “It is a love song” and, “Not a funeral dirge.” Yet, the song was performed several times during the Queen’s funeral services in 1917. The funeral performances of the song took place in spite of the Queen’s request that “it never be sung at any funeral service but one,” the funeral service of Henry Berger. Ironically, there is no record of the song having been performed at Berger’s funeral.''

So in summary, I think the note should probably be removed now since there are no clear evidence that the Queen had anything to say on the subject and it is just Allen's own conjectures. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:57, 2 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, I'll leave it up to you to remove it. — Maile (talk) 21:59, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

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Traveling companions during 1887 jubilee
"Our party consisted of the following individuals: Her Majesty Queen Kapiolani, wife of my brother, the reigning king; Lieutenant-General J. O. Dominis, governor of the island of Oahu, and myself; Colonel C. P. Iaukea, Colonel J. H. Boyd; besides which each of us had our attendants, the queen having four, and each of the others at least one attendant or valet." (Liliuokalani 1898, p. 120)

Others: http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85047084/1887-06-29/ed-1/seq-3/
 * Charles Kaiaiki, chief butler (c. 1827 – July 5, 1928)
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48583135/charles-kaiaiki-shaving-hair-in-act-of/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48581337/former-retainer-of-kalakaua-is-dead/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48581390/steward-of-king-kalakaua-passes-at/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48581483/steward-of-king-kalakaua-passes-at/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48581775/kona-man-said-to-be-101-years-old/
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48581680/kona-man-said-to-be-101-years-old/

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85047084/1887-06-21/ed-1/seq-2/
 * Joe Paiku, in attendance on the King's Chamberlain
 * James Washington Lonoikauoalii McGuire (an Irish Hawaiian), attending Colonel Boyd
 * Miss Hoakama, a native lady-in-waiting on the Queen or Hookano Hoakano -- Susan Hoʻokano ...Maybe this is her
 * Mr. and Mrs. Beckley
 * Consul Bond
 * Alderman Donovan
 * Councilman Wliall
 * Mr. and Mrs. G. D. Gilman,
 * Mrs. J. E. Gilman
 * Mr. and Mrs. J. W. Pitman


 * Joseph Aea https://www.newspapers.com/clip/21207873/emma_taylor_31635_iolani/

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DYK and images
I have swapped back the image reverted. DYK rules: DYKIMG "3. It must already be in the article". YES, only an image from the article can be used in DYK. And I would add that when we get to TFA, that would also be a reduced image with the same issues of how it looks. — Maile (talk) 11:10, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I object STRONGLY to a long standing image being reverted just for something like DYK. I vehemently retract any support of the image and will use revert. Period. Either discuss this on the article talk page or just go without the image for DYK.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:32, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I have the greatest respect for you Maile but even that does not override Wikipedia policy and guidelines. if you can demonstrate that DYK takes precedence over the long standing image here I will not fight this however, if all you are trying to accomplich is changing the image because of the DYK discussion than I do not support this change.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:37, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * (watching:) I don't see why you can't have all these images in the long article? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:27, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Template:Library resources box redundancy
I have removed Template:Library resources box. It is a useless template, that has not been upkept over the years. On it's talk page, it has been recommended for a merge with Authority Control template that is far more useful to the reader. The template has been in this article's Further reading section for several years, and is outdated for its supposed function. Four of the links are apparently a "Forward" link that all go to exactly the same Toolabs link, which is nothing more than a list of libraries around the world. The "Online books" links show far less than we have in the "Further reading" section. — Maile (talk) 15:11, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Graph
Adding a page view graph to this page, just for fun. For information on where it came from, see Template:Graph:PageViews. — Maile (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2018 (UTC)