Talk:Lilias Armstrong/Archive 1

Works which Armstrong did not write, but which she provided some sort of assistance
These don't belong in the article's Works section, but at some point they might be useful in the section talking about her academic / research career.

"I have enjoyed the valuable assistance of Prof. Daniel Jones and Miss Lilias E. Armstrong, B. A., of the Phonetics Department, University College. Miss Armstrong has also kindly undertaken to read the proofs of the phonetic part of this book for which I here beg to express my sincere thanks."

- Immanuel Björkhagen [Added. Umimmak (talk) 12:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)]

"Our thanks are due to Miss L. E. Armstrong, for examples of Ganda and Kikuyu."

- Diedrich Westermann & Ida C. Ward

It seems in the first edition of this book, there were sections written by Armstrong about the phonetics of Luganda and Kikuyu, but in subsequent printings the phonetic summary have been removed. "Since the publication of this book in 1933, more extensive and more accurate information on most of the languages dealt with has appeared; the phonetic summaries included in the first edition have therefore been omitted from this reprint." (p. ix of the 1966 Impression). When someone gets a hold of the 1933 edition, they should determine if this is something Armstrong wrote herself or just something she helped give information for. [Added. Umimmak (talk) 01:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)]

"The pronunciation represented here is that of the author himself analysed under the guidance of Miss Armstrong and Miss Ward, and finally checked by Prof. D. Jones."

- Banarsi Das Jain

"We have to thank Miss L. A. Armstrong for much help in connexion with the correcting of the proofs of this book."

- M. V. Trofimov & Daniel Jones [Added. Umimmak (talk) 12:12, 5 May 2017 (UTC)]

Umimmak (talk) 12:32, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

The Jones obituary wrote "⁴ði aːtikl in m.f. eiprəl 1930, p. 38 wəz laːdʒli həː wəːk.", but this article doesn't have Armstrong as an author, nor does it mention her anywhere. The sole author listed is Bien-ming Chiu; no other name is mentioned. So if this was "largely her work" as Jones claims, it's odd she's not mentioned.... (Bieng Ming Chiu was a lecturer in Chinese at SOS 1930–31 [source].)

Umimmak (talk) 17:10, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Leads on possible sources
These are sources I haven't yet read myself, but I'm providing as much of the citation information as I have been able to figure out in the hopes that in the future some other Wikipedia Editor might be able to figure out the full citation information or locate a copy.

* A death notice in The Universities Review (1937? p. 147?). Google Books Snippet Possibly an announcement of her readership in an earlier volume [Added! Umimmak (talk) 10:58, 18 April 2017 (UTC)]
 * An obituary titled "Miss Lilias Armstrong" in the journal Moderna Språk Vol 38 (1938) Page 22(-?) [Added. Umimmak (talk) 20:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)]
 * An obituary: E. Zwirner. (1938) "Miss Lilias Armstrong (Nachruf)" Archiv für vergleichende Phonetik 2:62–63. [Refs to Zwirner 1938:1 2 3] [Added. Pretty much verbatim from Times, though with only minor changes. Umimmak (talk) 20:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)]
 * A death notice in The Crown Colonist, Volume 8 (1938) pg. 122 [???] Google Books Snippet [Added. Was able to get enough from Google Snippet.]
 * An entry in Biographical dictionary of the phonetic sciences / edited by Arthur J. Bronstein, Lawrence J. Raphael, Cj Stevens. (1977), mentioned in Abercrombie (1978) [Added. Umimmak (talk) 01:29, 16 April 2017 (UTC)]
 * R. E. Asher, ‘Armstrong, Lilias Eveline (1882–1937)’, The encyclopedia of language and linguistics, ed. R. E. Asher (1994), 1.221–2 [Unclear if there would be any information there not present in Asher 2015/2004] [Added. Umimmak (talk) 22:20, 9 May 2017 (UTC)]
 * Something in Overseas education : Google Books Snippet (book review for Armstrong 1940?)

Papers mentioned: here and here:





Information on another vacation course [Added! Umimmak (talk) 10:58, 18 April 2017 (UTC)]

Umimmak (talk) 07:26, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Photograph of Armstrong
As per adding , I added a photograph. I'm not sure I did it right with respect to licencing and free use, but hopefully it works!

Umimmak (talk) 15:21, 18 April 2017‎ (UTC)

Burmese transcription images
This is what I had before, but the multiple image template doesn't allow scaling like a regular thumbnail does. But the old version of the image box had three images.

Umimmak (talk) 05:06, 5 May 2017‎ (UTC)

Removed text box on 1919 summer course
Copied here for posterity; removed as per the GA1 comments.

Spelling of Middlesb(o)rough
The quotation uses the spelling "Middlesborough", which can also be seen elsewhere in source from the late 20th century, e.g., ("Southend, Middlesborough"), and plenty of articles in The Times (to pick just one: "State of Trade" April 7 1888, pg 14, issue 32354 "MIDDLESBOROUGH, April 6.—[...] [C]ontinued excellent shipments of iron at Middlesborough have stiffened quotations").

It seems like this is just a spelling variant that was present in the late 19th century. This seems very different from the sorts of issues that MOS:PMC mentions like obvious typos like spelling "harassment" with three Ss. MOS:PMC also says "In direct quotations, retain dialectal and archaic spellings", which this seems to be based on the number of contemporary sources spelling it the same way.

To "correct" it to "Middlesbrough", as has done, without comment seems like original research since that is making a claim that at that time only the spelling with one O was considered correct and the spelling with two Os was "a trivial spelling error". It's more neutral to quote the source as written. Umimmak (talk) 04:06, 23 June 2017 (UTC)


 * P.S., I tried tagging you but it didn't work since you're an IP address so I reverted to get your attention, sorry about that. Umimmak (talk) 04:43, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Good points well made, thank you. Having read that I agree entirely - leave as is. And thanks also re the tagging/revert - absolutely fine, nice of you to be so polite to a simple humble IP address! Cheers 213.205.251.223 (talk) 12:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC) (yes it's still me, or me again, rather)

Material excised from article during FA nomination, moved here for posterity.
"Sources disagree as to the name of the school or schools she taught at, how long she taught, and what her positions were:
 * . "Experience: Assistant Mistress—[3 illegible words: seven, six, and seven characters long, respectively] School, East Ham, 1906–1910; Senior Assistant Mistress—Higher Elementary School, East Ham, 1910–1918."
 * . "After graduating at Leeds she started her career as a teacher of French and was senior assistant at the Higher Elementary School, East Ham, from 1906 to 1918. During the latter part of that period she studied phonetics with the object of improving her teaching of spoken French. Eventually it became evident that phonetics itself was her true vocation, and she was appointed to the staff of the Department of Phonetics, University College, London, in 1918."
 * . "She was trained as a teacher at Leeds University, obtaining a B.A. degree there in 1906, and between 1910 and 1918 she taught at the East Ham Central School in London, where she was highly regarded and was expected to be appointed headmistress."
 * . "Before then she had a successful career as a secondary school teacher of French and had reached the position of senior mistress at East Cheam Central School in Essex."
 * . "At the time when, in her mid-thirties, she first attended Jones's Department as a part-time student, she held the post of senior mistress at East Ham Central School in metropolitan Essex. She had been highly successful in her career as a teacher and was widely tipped for promotion to headmistress."
 * . "Her first appointment after graduation was as a teacher of French at the higher elementary school, East Ham, London. She was senior mistress there when she left in 1918 for University College, London, to become full-time assistant to Daniel Jones (1881–1967) in the department of phonetics. In making this move, after having been fired with enthusiasm for phonetics through attending evening classes in the subject at University College, Armstrong left a secure position, from which she could without doubt have expected to acquire a post as headmistress, for a temporary appointment with a lower salary.""
 * . "Her first appointment after graduation was as a teacher of French at the higher elementary school, East Ham, London. She was senior mistress there when she left in 1918 for University College, London, to become full-time assistant to Daniel Jones (1881–1967) in the department of phonetics. In making this move, after having been fired with enthusiasm for phonetics through attending evening classes in the subject at University College, Armstrong left a secure position, from which she could without doubt have expected to acquire a post as headmistress, for a temporary appointment with a lower salary.""

"She went to infant school in Middlesbrough, North Yorkshire, but by 1889, she and her family were living in Louth, Lincolnshire and Lilias and four of her siblings had registered to attend Newmarket Council School."

Umimmak (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2017‎

"She attended the University of Leeds Day Training College and got a Board of Education Certificate. [...] Armstrong became lecturer in 1920,"

Umimmak (talk) 21:45, 21 October 2017‎

Umimmak (talk) 00:49, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

"(2) ; . ( 11, 2, 3.) [...] (5),, . --. ( 12,  2,  2.)"

- Passy, 1927. P. 14

"for "bi-labial v", the middle and South German sound of w, the Ewe sound in (boat), (python), which words have to be distinguished from  (to tear),  (to be finished)"

- IIALC 1927, pp. 4–5

"While the object of the book is to study especially the tune of French, that tune is often compared with the one used in similar circumstances in English; so that the book becomes almost a comparative study of French and English intonation."

- Hedgecock 1934–1935, p. 164

Umimmak (talk) 01:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

"Anachronistic" locations
Re : Would you be happy with statements like "... in the London suburb East Ham" or "in Pendlebury, a town near Manchester"? Readers know where London and Manchester are so they are useful points of reference; simply removing them just leaves the reader with less information. Umimmak (talk) 01:23, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Although East Ham was in Essex at the time, "the London suburb of East Ham" would be fine but since it's already mentioned that Pendlebury is in Lancashire I think added "a town near Manchester" would simply be extraneous. Phinn (talk) 01:31, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * That assumes the reader knows where Lancashire is, though. Plenty of people are more familiar with the city of Manchester than the county Lancashire -- especially its historic boundaries. Honestly I think it's confusing to mention Lancashire at all in the article due to the change in county boundaries. Umimmak (talk) 02:01, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I would disagree that many more people would know where Manchester is but not Lancashire, in any case that's what the wikilinks to the relevant entries are for. As for historic boundaries being confusing, Greater Manchester and Greater London did not exist at the time so it would be incorrect to list them; see MOS:PN Phinn (talk) 02:15, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm no longer suggesting adding back Greater London or Greater Manchester; I'm just saying that "Pendlebury, Lancashire" is potentially more confusing the reader than "Pendlebury, a town near Manchester". Without further clarification it makes it seem like Pendlebury is still in Lancashire. Maybe "Pendlebury, at the time in Lancashire" or something like that would work. Umimmak (talk) 17:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * As I said, if someone is unfamiliar with either place name then they can click on the wikilink to find out more. I sincerely doubt that more people would be familiar with the location of Manchester but not Lancashire. Phinn (talk) 23:39, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * But that doesn't address the issue at hand, namely that Pendlebury is no longer in Lancashire, but saying "Pendlebury, Lancashire" suggests that. (Also why wouldn't people be more familiar with the fifth largest city in England than a random administrative region?) Also, by your logic, people can simply click on Pendlebury to know where it is, so why bother mentioning the county it was once in? Umimmak (talk) 02:14, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 external links on Lilias Armstrong. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20171018040828/http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/5625/1/Transactions%20of%20the%20Somali%20Academy%20of%20Sciences%20and%20Arts.pdf to http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/handle/2307/5625
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20171018041141/http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/2059/1/hikmad%20Soomaali.pdf to http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/handle/2307/2059
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20171018041249/http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/1509/1/Il%20Somalo%20della%20Somalia.pdf to http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/handle/2307/1509
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20171018041522/http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/2169/1/A%20morai%20model%20of%20the%20prosodic%20phonology%20of%20Somali.pdf to http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/handle/2307/2169
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20171018040518/http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/4698/1/The%20phonetic%20structure%20of%20Somali.pdf to http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/handle/2307/4698
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20171018041030/http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/5818/1/The%20development%20of%20a%20national%20orthography%20in%20Somalia%20and%20the%20modernization%20of%20the%20Somali%20language.pdf to http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/handle/2307/5818
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20171018041347/http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/2162/1/R.C.%20Abraham%20and%20Somali%20Grammar%20Tone%2cderivational%20morphology%20and%20%28...%29.pdf to http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/handle/2307/2162
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20171018040143/http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/2591/1/Lilias%20Evelyne%20Armstrong%20and%20her%20discoveries%20in%20Somali%20phonology.pdf to http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/handle/2307/2591

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 20:45, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Archiving PDF
Regarding http://www.ddl.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/Fulltext/philippson/these.pdf

There is something unusual about this PDF that's preventing it from being correctly archived by archive.org and archive.is .. it appears to redirect to a Google Cache URL, and both archive services then reject it. WebCite was able to archive it. -- Green  C  16:28, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Image
An image of Armstrong and Jones at the 1919 summer course can be found here.



I think the photo currently used in the article is fine, but in case a second photo is thought necessary I thought I’d mention it in the talk page for posterity. Umimmak (talk) 10:10, 8 July 2020 (UTC)