Talk:Lillian Hellman/Archive 1

Please expand
This article is little more than a stub and I hope someone knowledgable will enlarge upon it. - Faithful reader: Hi!! -I agree. But it doesn't do much good to add new (and referenced/cited) facts about Hellman if people keep reverting the material added -Tim 26 AUG 2006

Hammett and gender bias
Dashiel Hammett's article mentions Lillian Hellman in the second section of his bio, but he is mentioned in the first sentence of her bio, as if he is the primary reason she's known. Arguably, she was more influential than he was. Just an observation on what struck me as gender bias. - MS

Rayray 15:19, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC) I think pulp fiction was the right term to use here, although I don't feel *very* strongly about it. Hammett's stories weren't just published in magazines, and I think pulp fiction is a widely understood term.
 * I agree. Pulp magazine should be moved to Pulp fiction, it should be generalized, and the appropriate disambig should be added to Pulp Fiction. I just changed the link because the redirect was now broken; once the article has been moved we'll update. &mdash;JRM 09:23, 2004 Sep 3 (UTC)

Edited incorrect link
Took out the auto reference for The Big Knockover as it referenced a Swedish band of some description, not the book

Documented facts?
An anonymous editor restored several paragraphs that I toned down or removed. These paragraphs have as their source a controversial and very unflattering biography, and are presented in a very nasty way. This one book is not enough of a source to say of Hellman

1. "she held a double standard on the subject of free speech" 2. "Hellman had shaded the truth on some accounts of her life" 3. strongly implies that Hellman took orders from Stalin.

Better sourcing is necessary before the wikipedia states *as fact* that a person is a liar, hypocrite, and Stalinist stooge.Grz77 23:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks to me like there are at least two sources for the fact that Hellman shaded the truth on the Moscow trials, including the complete copy of the letter Hellman signed herself right there in the (Stalinist) periodical, Soviet Russia Today. Hellman later contradicted herself when she claimed she'd never supported the Moscow Trials.  Kind of hard to argue that's not convincing source material.  The allegation of 'liar, hypocrite, and Stalinist stooge' is found nowhere in the bio, so we can dispense with that ridiculous charge.  Certainly no one who has read any biography of Hellman is going to seriously argue that she did not occasionally depart from the truth in her nonfiction writings and public statements, they are too numerous to list, particularly her recollections of past meetings and conversations (See bios of Gellhorn, McCarthy, Kazan, Trilling, etc, etc...!  However, I added two more sources (one of them by a Professor at Baruch College and author of seven biographies) for good measure, so that should take care of the problem.

Odd slant, it seems to me
Am I the only one bothered by how and where Hellman's left-wingedness and Jewishness are placed in this article? Both facts are mentioned in the respective first sentences of [a] the article itself and [b] the "Early Life" section, as if we were saying, "Hey--you'd better be aware of this first of all: Whatever might be said about her writing and her life, keep in mind that she was a lefty and a Jew." DSatz 14:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not so sure that I agree. Being left-wing is what drove her.  That's pretty important.
 * The fact that she was a Jew is only mentioned once, unless you count the categories. If her family was not practicing the faith then a case could be made that it's immaterial to her upbringing, but I don't know that to be true.
 * OTOH, if her parents were observant Jews, or at least if they had recognized some link to their past, then that makes her opposition to Lend-Lease more remarkable.
 * -- Randy2063 20:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the mild reference to Hellman's political beliefs as 'left-wing' is being diplomatic to the point of deception. Like calling Trotsky a 'progressive'!  Hellman was, in fact, not only a Communist, but a dedicated and unabashed member of the Stalinist wing of the Party for almost the whole of her adult life. Dan01 14:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.72.118.246 (talk)


 * Yes, it's very important that an article about someone, whom many persons did not not know was Jewish, not list her as being Jewish, since that would taint the article, because Jewish persons should never be listed as Jewish if you think some might think that person did something wrong, and therefore malign all Jewish persons. Sigh. If Hellman owned a pie tin manufacturing plant, and she was given an award for design excellence, I have a feeling you'd want that in, more than the fact she was Jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.140.251 (talk) 01:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * FWIW, one of the external links goes to Hellman at the Jewish Virtual Library.:-- Randy2063 01:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)Hi!!!

Shaded the Truth?
I can't think of a more weaselly phrase. She lied! 70.26.84.103 (talk) 04:16, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The phrase is gone. I'm trying to find appropriate language on a case by case basis. Many facts are disputed, of course, and many unverifiable. Some things are suppressed, others exaggerated. Not all "facts" are equally important. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 23:58, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

There are a lot more controversies
Hellman spent her life stealing stories or trying to ruin other writers. The theft and mutilation of the Meyer Levin version of the play "Diary of Anne Frank" and the entire "Julia" story are just two of them. I suggest that this article needs to be rewritten by someone who has read any of the bios that emerged after her death (and after the threats of lawsuits). Yes, she was of Jewish ancestry, but it is clear that her religion was Stalinism, and as such, she emerged as a leading leftwing anti-Semite.68.111.71.197 (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Calling Hellman an anti-Semite is going a bit too far. While it is true that she did indeed work against the representation of Jewish characters and themes on the stage and screen, I don't think that in itself makes her an anti-Semite. She was, indeed, herself Jewish, although in her case it was merely an accident of birth, since she never identified with Jewishness at all, and was never associated in any way with Jewish causes, nor did she play the slightest role in American-Jewish society. Nevertheless, I don't think one can properly call her an "anti-Semite." 66.108.89.8 (talk) 04:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC) Allen Roth
 * Yeah well, partially unreconstructed Stalinist or not, Hellman never went as far as McCarthy did in shamelessly defaming someone who on an individual basis, independently of politics, was a victim of a communist regime, Vietnam POW Colonel Risner in what was a telling and egregious display of lack of character.

founded Screen Actor's Guild
where is there no mention of her being a founding member of the Screen Actor's Guild?


 * She was not. She never acted. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 23:57, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

It's the Screen Writers Guild. I'll add that soon. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 17:18, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

David Frum
I am troubled that David Frum is quoted in the article almost as if he were present during the HUAC hearings. How a Canadian, born 8 years after could know this, isn't clear. A footnote is mentioned, Frum's books about the 70s, which may be intended to promote the book. Has anyone actually read Frum's book so we know what we're talking about? --UnicornTapestry (talk) 19:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed the Frum sentences as irrelevant. 69.180.173.237 (talk) 02:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Article needs to address her character in "Julia"
Julia is a 1977 movie that was nominated for 11 Academy Awards. Lillian Hellman is the lead character in the movie. This (and any controversies) needs to be addressed somewhere in the article. I lack knowledge of Lillian Hellman to comment on the accuracy of her character in "Julia" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.184.242.136 (talk) 01:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree there should be more about this. Pentimento is probably her most famous work, and the film adaptation Julia probably the most lauded and best known by contemporary people. The fact that the story is NOT autobiographical but, rather, complete fiction is important. Codenamemary (talk) 20:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)