Talk:Lillie Rosa Minoka Hill

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Native American ancestry
As an FYI, I have an in use or under construction tag that I'm working on the article. I have have been looking for sources and updating the article with content that I find.

I am not sure why you have made changes to the article removing content that she isn't Mohawk or Native American that go against cited content in the article.

Her father was a white man. I am not sure what percentage, but based upon her mother and grandmother's heritage, she has sources that the mom was Mohawk. The grandmother seems to be among the Eastern Woodlands people - I don't remember but I will look for whether she's Mohawk. I am not seeing anything that says she does not have any Native American heritage. Is that what you are trying to say?

There are citations in the body of the article for: "The second Native American female doctor in the United States, after Susan La Flesche Picotte (Omaha)".
 * Added another. I can add more.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not seeing the work or citation right that her mother was Mohawk, I may have inadvertently deleted that. I remember thinking a number of versions that Mohawk was in the paragraph too many times. I have seen it in multiple sources. I will return that. I am happy to add multiple sources if that helps.
 * I returned that. Kept the sources that were there and added another, making three right now.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a source that she "who self-identified as being of Mohawk descent". I have not seen that anywhere. Do you have a source for that? I didn't see one.
 * I could not find that, so I removed that from the intro and a category. If you have a source, that would be really helpful.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Unless there is new scholarship that I haven't come to yet, it doesn't look to me like any of your edits are warranted. I am still at work on the article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Is this about federal government Blood quantum laws that limit tribal participation - even though they are Native Americans? –CaroleHenson (talk) 04:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson It has nothing to do with blood quantum. She wasn't Native American because she wasn't a member of any tribe, nor was she a proven descendant of any tribe. She wasn't a member of the Oneida Nation of Wisconsin because she wasn't an Oneida descendant nor did she identify as one. Her husband was Oneida. She was an honorary Oneida in the cultural sense, but not a citizen of the tribe. Her non-citizenship in the Oneida Nation has nothing to do with the tribe's one-quarter blood quantum requirement. She may have been of Native American descent, but it seems like there is no proof of the claim that her mother was Mohawk. Without proof that her mother was Mohawk, that leaves her as a person of self-identified Mohawk descent. I am not asserting that she wasn't of Native American descent. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:50, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * It's the practice here to use sources to validate information. And, I am not finding your claims in published documents.


 * What do you have from a published source and sources?–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:03, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson This article's claim that she wasn't allowed to be an Oneida Indian Nation citizen because she didn't meet the tribe's blood quantum is simply false. She didn't have an Oneida blood quantum of less than one-quarter. She simply wasn't an Oneida descendant at all. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson Which claims? I recommend that you read the North American Indigenous WikiProject's guidelines to determining Indigenous identity, if you haven't already. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Was she denied Oneida citizenship due to lack of Oneida blood? Sure. Was she denied because she had a blood quantum of less than one-quarter? No. So she wasn't denied due to blood quantum. (There are other tribes that go by lineal descent, but she wasn't even a lineal Oneida descendant.) Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I am not sure your point here. I have a hard time imagining that she was "turned down". She knew she wasn't an Oneida woman. She was so honored to get beyond the racist federal government laws and honored (or I think of it as adopted) and given a name as one of the Oneida people. But that's not the point. The point is sources, sources, sources. We need sources. Without a source, it's WP:Original research.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * [edit conflict]
 * , Claims that she is self-identifying.


 * I have been writing articles about prehistory and indigenous people, including Native Americans, Puebloans, and throughout Paleo-Indian, Archaic, and Post-Archaic periods. I have worked on hundreds of articles and I have always cited content with reliable sources.


 * I am gobsmacked that her accomplishments are questioned because her heritage isn't "proved". The quality of the sources for this article are good and very good.


 * It seems like the biggest challenge is a decision someone has made that she is self-identifying. Until I see a published source for that, I will believe the article's sources, including that she lived on a Mohawk reservation, had a Mohawk mother, and a Mohawk grandmother who is of the Eastern Woodland people.


 * If you would point me to something that says not to use citations for Native Americans, that would be... well, interesting. The link you sent me to is not telling me to ignore sources.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Am I being pranked? I am thinking more and more that I am being pranked.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:25, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson Did you read the Indigenous WikiProject's guidelines? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:29, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson What source or sources prove that she had a Mohawk mother? Living on a Mohawk reservation does not make someone Mohawk. Having a Mohawk mother does not make someone Mohawk. Having a Mohawk grandmother does not make someone Mohawk. Per the article, we don't know who her mother was. Her claim to have a Mohawk mother is a story without documentation, as the article itself states. The story may or may not be true, but we have no confirmation. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:33, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The link to the guideline essay you provided, which when it talks about people, focuses on self-identifying people. I am sorry, but just because you don't think the information is valid doesn't mean it isn't.

I am sorry, but I feel like this is a witch-hunt... or a prank. I don't see any reason why you would question this information that is published in a lot of sources. They aren't People.

Am I right that you don't have one single reliable source that questions whether she:
 * Is a Mohawk?
 * Legitimately was identified as the second Native American woman to get a medical degree / become a physician?

If not, I am not sure what more we have to talk about.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:45, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * correction.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:54, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson Is there anything from the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe indicating that she is a descendant? It doesn't matter at all what her father or grandmother claimed; just because they claimed it doesn't make it automatically true. It would only mean that she self-identified based on family stories. I don't think you understood the guideline and recommend reading again closely. I'm not questioning whether or not she was Mohawk. We know she wasn't Mohawk. She wasn't a member of the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe. A non-Native source merely claiming she was the second Native American woman doctor is meaningless; we already know that isn't true because we already know she wasn't Native American. Even if her Mohawk ancestry claims could be proven, that would at best make her the second woman doctor of Native heritage. Merely having Native American heritage doesn't make someone a Native American. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Verifiability - "Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been previously published in a reliable source before you can add it."
 * Verifiability, not truth
 * How can you verify that she is not a Mohawk?–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson Yes, I can verify she wasn't Mohawk. She wasn't a citizen of the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe or of any other tribe. Not Mohawk. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 06:12, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * , where is that published? How does that fit with her living in Atlantic City with her grandmother for the first five years of her life?
 * There might be a way to back into a note for the cited content if some source can state that she's not a Mohawk, or can provide some information to lead one to believe it, but it cannot be "because we know" that won't work.
 * An example, for < publish / census / list date >  have been checked and "Lillie Minnetoga" is not found there. –CaroleHenson (talk) 06:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson The article says "Hill was not a citizen of any Native American tribe." Are you disputing this? Are you asserting that she was a citizen of the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 06:26, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson She is listed on an Oneida Nation census roll with a blank space for her tribe, because she wasn't a tribal citizen of any tribe. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 06:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * edit conflict
 * , No, I typed: "Because of her parents heritage and the United States' blood quantum laws, Hill was not a citizen of any Native American tribe.[5]"
 * , No, I typed: "Because of her parents heritage and the United States' blood quantum laws, Hill was not a citizen of any Native American tribe.[5]"


 * Listen, I am trying to help back into a note, like, "Authors x, y, z, state that Minoka-Hill is Mohawk, but that is unlikely because - she's not on records - her surname Minnetoga is of the ____ nation.


 * I am also looking up the "Minnetoga" which has some prevalence in Minnesota and Oklahoma.


 * I am stopping right now, because I am trying to help, but I don't think it's working. If you can think of something that can be said that ties to a source, that would be good. Info about the surname might be the best. This has really worn me out.–CaroleHenson (talk) 06:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson I will do my best to find more sources that can verify her Mohawk heritage. I will keep you posted. My intentions are not antagonistic. I simply want factual, verifiable documentation of her Mohawk heritage. I am sure you do too. I will also try contacting the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe tomorrow. Best regards. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 06:56, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * , Great! That sounds like a great lead. I think the surname might be a really great lead too - and it may be from the Dakota people and/or someone else in Minnesota. There's not too many people with that surname and it's sometimes spelled something like Minatoga, there's also Minnetonka with similar spellings. So I think sorting through census lists might help with research about where these people were from... and then what Native Americans were there. I am not sure if she was born in upstate New York or Philadelphia. She is said to have lived with her grandmother in Atlantic City for the first five years of her life - perhaps not ever or infrequently at the reservation. If she's not Mohawk, perhaps we could add a note with source info about who she is likely to be. It would be really interesting, too, if someone with the Minnetoga, Minatoga, Minnetonka surname have been at the Mohawk reservation. Somehow we have to get to published info. Say for the surname, perhaps census lists, books, etc. about people with that surname and who they are, etc. Yes, I have the objective of finding out who she is - whether it's Mohawk or another people. Night.–CaroleHenson (talk) 07:22, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @CaroleHenson It might also be productive to find out if she has living grandchildren (her children are all dead) and to see if any of them can be reached out to. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 07:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Her children said that she did not talk about her childhood or her family. And, we need published info. Her granddaughter Roberta Hill Whiteman wrote a dissertation about her grandmother. Her dad wouldn't talk about her mother. We cannot use it unless it is published as a book, but it can be used for researching to find info and sources - and then check out the sources. Kind of back into the info. The dissertation is just a preview, but it mentions that she was a Mohawk orphan, likely born in Atlantic City or St. Regis. Marion D. Grinley was the first and only other to state she was born in St. Regis. Allen said she was born in a seacoast city. Allen said that she lived with her Mohawk grandmother as a child and that her mother was from St. Regis, New York.–CaroleHenson (talk) 07:52, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Since she lived with her grandmother, did she ever mention her grandmother's name? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 07:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No. I have been looking. If I come across it, I will let you know.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Marriage record
@CaroleHenson "In 1895, when Minoka was 18, Allen let her know that he was her father and that she was not misbegotten." If Minoka was not "misbegotten" (born outside of wedlock), then wouldn't that imply that Joshua Allen was married to Lillie's mother? Wouldn't there be a marriage record? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 07:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * , If Allen and her mother were married, yes, there would be a marriage record. Wouldn't she have also moved into his house in Philadelphia? And, Allen not hidden that he was Lillie's father until she was 18? We may never know.


 * I haven't found any evidence that they were married, but you are a really good researcher, perhaps you can find it.


 * I have thought about that quite a bit and my take is that he was saying that in the eyes of God (as she was raised Quaker and then converted to Catholicism) she was not "less than". Born out of wedlock is a better way to say it. - IMO, It would change the meaning from the source to say she was not "born out of wedlock".–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:54, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Place of birth, will, ethnicity
@CaroleHenson On FindAGrave, she's listed as being born in Atlantic City. Not sure the source for that, but Dr Lilly R Minoka is listed as being born in New Jersey on the 1900 US Census. She is listed as "Indian", but that's still not proof of Mohawk descent. Based on her dark skin in photos, I don't think she was white. By any chance, do you have a link to Joshua G. Allen's will? Drexel University has a copy. Admittedly, this is pure speculation, but if I didn't know anything about this family and you were to show me this picture and this picture or this picture and this picture and asked me to guess the race of their family, I would have guessed African-American. But again, that's just my personal opinion. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Lovely re: the census! That ties in, too, with her being raised by her grandmother in Atlantic City, which has been removed. But, I think it warrants coming back now - and straightening out the place of birth. This is the first time I have seen her name as Lilly.


 * I added the 1900 census info. And brought back that she lived with grandmother in Atlantic City - and the info about being her father at birth for context (otherwise his biographical info right after her birth doesn't make sense) - and removed that Lilly lived with Allen and his wife (which he didn't have, he was a bachelor) - brought back that Lilly went to a boarding school, where she lived.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * There's a source from a newspaper about Allen's will in the article. I don't remember if I looked for the actual will, because the newspaper notice gave me the info I needed/wanted.


 * Yes, nearly every picture of her, she looks like she's African American. (Perhaps the race of her maternal grandfather? I so wish we had the grandmother's name. I am not sure that I can search the 1880 census for Atlantic City without a surname and with Native American ethnicity - worth a try. If we could get her name, that would be lovely!)–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I finished adding missing citations, so I am out of the article right now.
 * I will go take a look through the 1880 census records and see what I can find about the grandmother. I can use Lillie's first name.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * For some reason, I am not able to find people in the 1880 census by "Native American", "Mohawk", or "Indian". "Black" works, but I haven't found a grandmother not Black, living with a Black man, and with a granddaughter in Atlantic City, but that take a lot of looking for Black men born about 1800 to 1830 with those family members. It would seem, too, that the biographies would say that she lived with her grandmother and grandfather if he was still alive. I am not sure I am going to find grandmother.
 * Do you know where the Indian census records may be for Mohawk Indian Reservation? It would be great to find Minnetoga in the census records.
 * I searched on Minnetoga and Minnetonka in Atlantic City and found a Charlie Minnetonka in Dakota Territory. He's a 59 year old Native American farmer.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Mohawk
, Yesterday I added a citation needed tag with the reason, "You need a citation or at least a note about what you mean by "self-identification". That is not covered in Commire. An option could be to say that she was told she was Mohawk, I think there are several citations to support that.


 * There are already three sources for this. Once it gets past that, it looks ridiculous.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

What do you think about: "Lillie Rosa Minoka-Hill (August 30, 1875 – March 18, 1952) was an American physician. She was not a citizen of any Native American tribe,[9] but was told her mother was Mohawk. and was told her mother had been Mohawk. Her father was a Quaker physician.[1]"?–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:47, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I rewrote the sentence and okay with removing the citation needed and discuss tag if the second part of the sentence is agreed upon. It at least adds some context.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:28, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Here's the edit.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I personally don't care for the "self-identification" part of the sentence, I said I would remove the citation needed tag with the other edit as a compromise. Since the conversation has gone quiet, it may be that I am the only one that cares at this point. How about: if no one responds in one week, I remove "self-identification" and make the two sentences:
 * "Although referred to as a Native American woman,[1][2] Minoka was not a citizen of any Native American tribe.[1] She was told her mother was a Mohawk.[4]: 78[5][7] Her father was of Quaker descent.[3]"?–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Daughter's death
I am unable to find a source for "In 1923, their daughter Rosa Melissa Hill died from typhoid fever." It said 1922, but her Find a Grave page with a photo of her gravestone states that she died March 1, 1923. I am unable to find a reliable source for this. The U.S., Indian Census Rolls, 1885-1940 has its last record for her on June 22, 1922.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:19, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Perhaps something useful can be found at . Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)


 * That was sweet of you. Out of those, I think that there were just two that mention the daughter beyond her birth and it wasn't about her health.


 * It's nice to see you around. It has been awhile since I have seen you on the same pages, I think. Happy editing! I always like seeing your comments in something I am working on or checking out.–CaroleHenson (talk) 08:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Article clean-up and coming to a solution for the mother's heritage
I have been truly lost, and posted a message on Teahouse

So, I have things to sort out:
 * The tone message that was added to the article. I removed all of the content that I had not found citations for - and I think that's going to take care a lot of the problem. I will keep working on it.
 * I hadn't really processed yet that Lillie's place of birth is really uncertain, So, I took that out of the body of the article and the infobox and added a note. I didn't just state one or the other because there could be a third: Atlantic City. That came from a dissertation by her granddaughter, though, so to use it I have to find another source.
 * Cullen advised clean-up as well. Specifics are helpful if you can share.

I removed the "known for" info from the infobox - that's an easy fix / compromise and there's no sourcing issue.

The thing that still stumps me is - what published sources state that Lillie wasn't a Mohawk woman - and the accusation that she was claiming to be one when she wasn't? I had mentioned earlier on this talk page that there might be a way to come up with a note, discounting the Mohawk connection if there was something about her circumstances didn't match. For instance, her surname is Minnetoga. Where does that originate from. I see in the 1800s there were a few people with Minnetoga, Minatoga, or Minnetonka surname in Oklahoma and Minnesota. There were Dakota who lived near Minnetoga, Minnesota (I think is the connection I remember) - could that mean anything. This is grasping at straws, but to find sources about people with the Minnetoga surname - and put info in a note - is my best thought at the moment.

Thanks for giving me a bit of time to work on this and get it closer to a workable article. I think that an article is warranted, but it would be fine to trim it down. There was a LOT of how she lived, what she said, etc. content. I appreciate your patience and suggestions for getting to a better place.–CaroleHenson (talk) 08:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)


 * , I see you took the in use message off, which I take to mean - "scram". Go for it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 08:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)


 * , As an FYI, I just recently starting cleaning up the article from here. I said at the top of this talk page that this was still a work in progress. I am guessing this all just got off to a bad start between us. I will admit I was really flustered.–CaroleHenson (talk) 08:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:CITESTYLE
At some point editors should agree on/pick a WP:CITESTYLE for this article, ref-tag or sfn, and use it consistently. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)


 * That's new for me. I am not working on this anymore but it would be nice to know how you handle it when you have books and journals with multiple pages - and then a lot of sources without multiple pages (newspapers, one page book sources, etc.)? Almost all the things I work on have both. It would be nice to see how that's handled, if you have an example.


 * They are both used in Good articles, like Abraham Lincoln, and Feature articles. I have never had it come up as something that needs corrected in Good articles (and of course I haven't asked for it either). But I sometimes swim behind the tide - am off for chunks at a time so late at picking some things up.–CaroleHenson (talk) 08:45, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Admittedly, it's not the most important of "rules", though, like everything else around here, it can cause serious disagreement. If applying it cause more disagreement, it's not worth it, IMO. Since the article atm doesn't have many refs, I thought I'd mention it, it's less work to "enforce" early. With an article like Lincoln, someone has to think it's worth the effort. Maybe it will come up if someone tries to FA it, maybe not. It's part of the WP:FACRITERIA, but even if it's followed at the FA-moment, that can change with time, editors may not know of it (or bother even if they do).
 * My choice of habit is to use ref-tag, and page-numbers can be added with in-text TEMPLATE:RP if necessary, like at Shakespeare coat of arms. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes. I totally forgot about that. Thanks for the example! I used to use rp and I began writing in a category where they didn't like it. So I switched approach and didn't switch back. But, I am going to start out a new article for a change of pace and I will give that a whirl. Much appreciated!–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * , I got back in on this article and I removed the sfns.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Recent edits
Regarding, these edits, found the place of birth in the 1900 Federal census. So, I added the 1900 census info. And brought back that she lived with grandmother in Atlantic City - and the info about Allen being her father at birth for context (otherwise his biographical info right after her birth doesn't make sense) - and removed that Lilly lived with Allen and his wife (which he didn't have, he was a bachelor) - brought back that Lilly went to a boarding school, where she lived.–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I am adding more citations about going to boarding school, living with grandmother, etc. I didn't add more about Minoka being told her mother was Mohawk, as there are already three sources.–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Second Native American woman ...
This has been removed from the body of the article:


 * Minoka was the second Native American woman in the United States to obtain a medical degree, after Susan La Flesche Picotte (Omaha).

Unless you can find a source that says that someone else was the "second Native American woman in the United States to obtain a medical degree" - why are you removing it from the body of the article? If this wasn't true, don't you think someone would have taken that claim (or someone for them)?

Removing cited content because you don't believe it is original research and disruptive editing.–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I also added John Hopkins here. She's had the title - uncontested from what I have been able to research - for 125 years.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The article says she was not part of any Native American tribe so it's not possible she was the second Native American doctor unless there's further sourcing from the tribes themselves. She was told she was Mohawk but I haven't seen any sources from the Mohawk tribe claiming her. MOS:CITIZEN lists the manual of style used on Wikipedia when writing about Native Americans citizens and/or descendants. Find sourcing about the Mohawk tribe claiming her. oncamera  (talk page) 16:30, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I was able to process the citizen / heritage issue, within input from others, in a way that makes sense to me here.


 * I read last night NARF and Office of Tribal Justice, US Department of Justice (cannot find that link at the moment) - and both of them said that to be a Native American of the U.S. or American Indian, requires heritage and citizenship. I think these are official answers. And, the definitions without requiring citizenship are really about heritage or ancestry - vs. the rights at this point in time.


 * The thing is: I am baffled by the consistent sourcing - for 125 years - about Minoka-Hill being the second Native American woman to have completed medical school / be a physician. But the thing is: that is what the sources say. I added a source from Johns Hopkins. I am not finding anyone with that claim - NOONE. That says something.


 * I truly believe that to ignore cited sources based upon what you believe or logically deduce is original research. You and I don't know what has happened over the years - but I would bet that claim was challenged. It had to have been. I cannot imagine how it wasn't challenged a number of times. But the long and the short of it is, it held.


 * "What do you think about: "Lillie Rosa Minoka-Hill (August 30, 1875 – March 18, 1952) was an American physician. She was not a citizen of any Native American tribe,[9] and was told her mother had been Mohawk. Her father was a Quaker physician.[1]"?


 * –CaroleHenson (talk) 18:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * And, I think that the "second NA woman" claims stays. Do you have something that can be added to that? Something that is clear and definitive that she isn't the 2nd woman Anything?


 * Should we take this to a group at Wikipedia to help sort out?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:32, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The "second NA" claim is not backed up by tribal sources. NARF: "...is recognized as an Indian by a tribe/village and/or the United States". John Hopkins is neither the federal government nor a tribal government body. oncamera  (talk page) 18:38, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you show me the Wikipedia guideline that says content about Native American non-citizens needs to be run by tribal sources - completely disregarding cited sources and a 125 year history?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia uses verified claims and tribal citizenship requires tribal sources. The claims of her being Mohawk are not verified by the tribe. oncamera  (talk page) 18:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We have the verified claims in cited sources. We say once, and I am suggesting another time in the first sentence that Lillie "was not a citizen of any Native American tribe". I am going to go ahead and put that bit in the first sentence because everyone agrees with that and it's good to start out with that.
 * How do we resolve this?–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Mohawk source? oncamera  (talk page) 19:14, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have a guideline or a published source about Minoka-Hill that relates to this issue?
 * I saw that you removed the NA woman physician claim again. I saw no comment about whether my statement in the first sentence is helpful in any way at all. I need a break, and then it seems an edit warring noticeboard post is the way to go. And, it's partly a self-acknowledge that I am a party in the issue. If you have a better idea, I am open to hearing it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:22, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Waiting for a source from the tribe to verify claims. oncamera  (talk page) 19:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Where will it be published? Not trying to hinder you at all. Just wondering. Let's leave it rhetorical at the moment. I am taking a break for hours.

And, [edit conflict], if you want to post on the noticeboard, go for it.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Waiting on you to find that source since you insist on adding it to the article. oncamera  (talk page) 20:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I beg your pardon.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

I am closing out this issue because:
 * There are a lot of sources that say that Minoka-Hilll "was the second Native American woman in the United States to obtain a medical degree" or become a physician.
 * The accomplishment has held for 125 years.
 * There is no one else that I could find that is declared to be the "second Native American woman in the United States to obtain a medical degree" or physician.
 * There are no sources that question whether Minoka Hill should have that identified accomplishment or not.
 * There are no guidelines that state that users should question these kinds of claims about Native Americans.
 * There are cited sources that state that Minoka Hill is a Native American (from a heritage perspective). Also, see definition in the notes.
 * There is no new conversation since May 16, more than a week ago.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:05, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Close out the issues?
There's a lot of conversation here, but I think that all we are left with for discussion are:
 * - please see the latest updates - ✅
 * - ✅, see that section for the reasons.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Is there anything that I am missing?–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Update above.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Update above.–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Definition of Native American and Mohawk member
I added a note at the top of the article. There's a lot more that can be said about it, but I think NARF's explanation of a "Native American" is good - and leads into the discussion about Mohawk membership.

Feel free to add, change, etc. I think a doctoral thesis could be written about what it means to be Native American. There could be a better source than NARF.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:06, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I added the Office of Tribal Justice of the DOJ information here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)