Talk:Lily Safra

Untitled
For the June 2005 deletion debate on this article, see Votes for deletion/Lily Safra.

note how the same user (86.148.61.179) changed both the description of the murder of Edmond as well as Lily's background to change the connotation of the artcile as taken from Domnique Dunne article and the 60 Minutes script. Lets try mainting the correct description of both the murder and the biography so that readers can get the correct facts... only changes with a source will be accepted

Is Lily Safra Jewish? The article does not state it explicitly, but it might be interesting to know.Tsf 14:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and what's her maiden name? What's known of her "English" father? 75.3.139.193 (talk) 13:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)Chicago

According to the Portuguese page, her full name is Lily Watkins Cohen Monteverde Bendahan Safra, so that I presume that Watkins is her maiden name. Still acoording to the same page, she descends from Russian Jews. Tsf (talk) 18:46, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Her father
I see that, according to one of the entries on this page (above), her father has at some stage been described as "English". The article as it stands now describes him as Czech. I have no independent information on this question. The name "Watkins" sounds English rather than Czech, but could of course have been changed. Nandt1 (talk) 12:06, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * According to trueknowledge.com her father was Polish. Or maybe he was a russian jewish emigre . Kittybrewster  &#9742;  09:55, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Lady Colin Campbell's "astonishment"
On this aspect, the article, before I edited it, read "To Lady Colin's astonishment, Lily Safra identified with that fictional character." Two issues with this formulation. First, how are we (who are not Lady Colin) to know whether she was or was not indeed astonished? All that we can observe is what she did, said or wrote (or what her lawyers did, said or wrote on her behalf). And so my edit indicates that Lady Colin "expressed" astonishment. Secondly, if -- after reading the article -- you believe that Lady Colin was truly astonished, perhaps you need to get out more? Nandt1 (talk) 12:01, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Censorship, whitewashing and hagiography in this article
It has become clear that this article is repeatedly and rapidly edited to remove any information that could be considered at all critical of its subject, and to focus almost exclusively on her charitable donations and the honours they have brought her. The piece has been turned into a joke. Anyone wishing to read a balanced treatment of this subject should look elsewhere. It has become pointless to continue to try to edit the piece to insert balance, as it is clear that such efforts will be edited away without delay. Instead, the best way to get any value out of the article is to read back over the history of edits to see what the hagiographical school has, over time, cut out (and put in)..... Nandt1 (talk) 21:34, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be sad if you were to give up on this. What do you suggest be reviewed with a view to possible reinsertion? Kittybrewster   &#9742;  09:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comment. You might like to see the recent pair of changes for an example.  Whoever it is who is (very diligently) censoring the article likes to leave in the statement that Mrs Safra received an apology and the voluntary withdrawal of the book "Empress Bianca" -- but keeps deleting the (sourced) statement that in fact a version of the book was subsequently published and is still widely available.  I have tried putting it back in (again!!), but no doubt it will be axed again. I am not sufficiently familiar with Wikipedia's formal procedures to know how one challenges this kind of censorship, which obviously skews this article. References to her third husband have previously been cut out as well, but so far the current reference to that gentleman has survived (for how long?).  Nandt1 (talk) 22:32, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As I expected, the reference to the publication of the book in the US has now been deleted yet again. Suggestions? Nandt1 (talk) 13:52, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Stick with it. Don't sweat the small stuff. It could be that the other editor is right on this. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  13:59, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I have now placed the note (below) on the talk page of the other editor. I would emphasize that the dispute between us centers, according to the other editor's explanation of his/her edits, on the "relevance" of the statements involved, not on their factual accuracy.

"Hello, User 81.200.176.13.

We seem to be reverting each other's edits to the page on Mrs. Lily Safra. My own position is that, if the article enters (as it does) into relatively detailed discussion of the "Empress Bianca" book history, including emphasizing the agreement reached with the UK publisher to withdraw the book from publication, then it is equally relevant and legitimate to add the fact that a revised version of the book did in fact appear in the US. You have now on several occasions deleted various different formulations of this statement.

On the assumption that your motivation is not simply to delete any and all relevant factual material that might conceivably be considered inconvenient to the subject of the article, I would like to propose to you in a constructive spirit that I would be open to considering possible alternative phrasings of the point about the US publication that you might wish to propose. I would, however, oppose anything resembling censorship of a Wikipedia article.

Best wishes to you for a happy 2010. Nandt1 (talk) 14:17, 31 December 2009 (UTC)" Nandt1 (talk) 14:22, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Copy of Exchange from Biography of Living Persons Page
Ths page appears to be repeatedly edited (by a single editor: 81-200-176-13) to remove information that might be considered inconvenient to the subject of the article. Not long ago, the mere existence of her third husband was edited out (though I have re-inserted that reference and -- for now -- it seems to be sticking). The presently-active disagreement relates to the article's coverage of a dispute between Mrs. Safra and Lady Colin Campbell over a novel written by Lady Campbell (Empress Bianca). The article discusses in some detail that fact that, following representations from Mrs Safra's lawyers, the novel's UK publishers issued an apology to Mrs. Safra and withdrew the book from publication. My efforts to add to the section the (well-sourced) information that a revised version of the novel was subsequently published in the US (and is still available) have been repeatedly deleted by User 81.200.176.13, with the statement that the information is "not relevant". I have posted an invitation to seek a negotiated resolution on both the other editor's own page and on the discussion page for the article in question, but have received no response from User 81.200.176.13. 18:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)Nandt1 (talk) 18:30, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You have got to be kidding me. The only reference for this stuff is "www.amazon.com".  Thanks for bringing this to our attention -- I have now removed both of the sections related to this issue.  They can be readded when someone produces proper sources for them -- do have a look at WP:RS and WP:BLP.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:38, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Not kidding. But let me try to sure we are all clear about the specific point for which Amazon was used as evidence.  The factual point that I sought to establish with my edit was whether the book in question was published on such-and-such a date and whether it is currently available.  A listing on Amazon surely provides any reasonable person with precisely this evidence. As to the rest of the story, that was as I found it. Nandt1 (talk) 23:45, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I see you've not only edited out the reference to the book -- which was at the center of the dispute -- but also the entire section dealing with all her husband's death as well, which as far as I know was not currently being disputed...?Nandt1 (talk) 23:51, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That's correct -- there's no place for unsourced negative material like that. There would be no problem with including it if it can be referenced with proper sources.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:55, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Ummm, having just said that, I now see that, after a "properly sourced" account of the husband's death was subsequently added to the article, you deleted that too! This time around, you said that it was too much detail on the husband!! I think you may be missing the point that, for 99 percent of readers, it is the husband's prominence, and his very bizarre death, that make Lily Safra newsworthy at all, rather than the many paragraphs of her charitable gifts and awards that you have left alone! This is a ridiculous article and has now been made even sillier. I give up on it. Maybe someone else can now give it a try. Nandt1 (talk) 13:15, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be a sadness. Stick with it. You are right in saying that her husband's death made her newsworthy. Also she has recently featured in the news regarding a deposit on a house she has not sold. Kittybrewster   &#9742;  13:45, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Improving Lily Safra's page
To Nomoskedasticity and other contributors :

Thank you for your feedback on Lily Safra's page about the controversies part. I didn't know that there was a trend away from having such a part.

Though, I think this page must be improved. There's a lot of gossips on it (a lot of informations are coming from a fictionnal book or a non official - and controversial - biography), surrounded by a flood of laudatory informations that really should be more neutral.

The point of making a "controversies part" was to clear the page a bit, before making several improvements. What would you suggest ? Let's give a try to make a worthly and objective Wikipedia page for Lily Safra at last. (Lightsword (talk) 20:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC))
 * If you think there is scope for improvements here, perhaps you could suggest specific improvements, one at a time. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:29, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I've made some changes to the page. According to the policies WP:CHALLENGE and WP:BURDEN, the parts i've removed should be correctly sourced (especially because they sound like gossips). Inline citations should be added and the references should be precised by the editor of this content. (Lightsword (talk) 21:19, 9 November 2010 (UTC))
 * Whoa -- hang on there, cowboy -- those parts did have a reference: they were all sourced to the book by Isabel Vincent, Gilded Lily. What exactly is amiss here, in your view?  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:22, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Maybe i've been a bit direct! But my view here is that we had before some parts with several sentences, expressing the most disputed ideas on all the page, proved only by one book : Isabel Vincent, Gilded Lily, and there's neither inline citation nor page number. That's a bit weak, don't you think ? Usually, on other pages, this kind of material is justified with several books/articles, etc. (Lightsword (talk) 07:50, 10 November 2010 (UTC))
 * Ah -- well, no, it isn't weak, it's entirely normal, I see no reason to doubt that source. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:16, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100726124715/http://www.brandeis.edu:80/trustees/hdr.html to http://www.brandeis.edu/trustees/hdr.html

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