Talk:Lincoln/Vote

THIS POLL IS COMPLETED

Results

 * Lincoln itself should be a disambiguation page

Votes: 23 Support: 73.9%

Summary of Results

 * 1) Lincoln redirects to Lincoln (disambiguation) &mdash; 4
 * 2) Lincoln itself should be a disambiguation page &mdash; 17
 * 3) Lincoln should redirect to Abraham Lincoln with a link at top toLincoln (disambiguation) &mdash; 0
 * 4) Lincoln should continue to describe the city of Lincoln,Lincolnshire &mdash; 1
 * 5) Lincoln itself should be a disambiguation page (similar to #2); Revise disambiguation page so that Abraham Lincoln or Top 5 prominently noted at the top &mdash; 1

''The discussion below is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page). No further edits should be made to this page.

Intro
This survey is an attempt to resolve issues related to the nature of the Lincoln page and what article should reside there.

This poll will run for two weeks from July 07, 2005 to July 21, 2005.

Summary of Votes So Far
The choices are:
 * 1) Lincoln redirects to Lincoln (disambiguation) &mdash; 4
 * 2) Lincoln itself should be a disambiguation page &mdash; 17
 * 3) Lincoln should redirect to Abraham Lincoln with a link at top to Lincoln (disambiguation) &mdash; 0
 * 4) Lincoln should continue to describe the city of Lincoln, Lincolnshire &mdash; 1
 * 5) Lincoln itself should be a disambiguation page (similar to #2); Revise disambiguation page so that Abraham Lincoln or Top 5 prominently noted at the top &mdash; 1

Note: Only choices 1 and 4 were options when this vote began. Choice #5 recently added.

Issue
Lincoln, Lincolnshire is an entirely unsuitable first page for the Lincoln topic. Lincoln, Lincolnshire is a small city of some 86,000 of which most people are unfamiliar. The fact of the matter is that Lincoln, Lincolnshire is NOT the most notable Lincoln in existance. Lincoln, Nebraska is a city of 225,500 and is the capital of the state of Nebraska making it a much more notable city and more appropriate. Abraham Lincoln is by far the most well known use of the word Lincoln, and numerous other cities are listed under disambiguation which could be valid. At best the link is ambigious as to where it should point. At worst the current linking is wrong as there can be little doubt that Lincoln, Lincolnshire is the least notable of the three primary examples I have listed here. Since this discussion has failed to reach a consensus I am hereby creating a survey to attempt to find the best solution, based in part on the recommendations from the page Talk:Lincoln (disambiguation).

Proposal
It is proposed that Lincoln be made to redirect to Lincoln (disambiguation) instead, and the current material at Lincoln be moved to Lincoln, Lincolnshire. This course of action prevents unexpected direction to a page with unexpected content, and reaches a compromise on the subject of which Lincoln should be the primary article. There are many examples of this sort of decision being made for other pages. A vote of agree could be expected to have the following consequences:
 * 1) The current page at Lincoln will be moved to Lincoln, Lincolnshire with Lincoln redirecting to Lincoln (disambiguation).

A vote of disagree could be expected to have the following consequences:
 * 1) The current page at Lincoln will remain unchanged.

Okay, to reflect the full range of opinions, the choices are:
 * 1) Lincoln redirects to Lincoln (disambiguation)
 * 2) Lincoln itself should be a disambiguation page
 * 3) Lincoln should redirect to Abraham Lincoln with a link at top to Lincoln (disambiguation)
 * 4) Lincoln should continue to describe the city of Lincoln, Lincolnshire

Choice 1. Lincoln should redirect to Lincoln (disambiguation)

 * Agree - My points are listed above in the sections Issue and Proposal. Agriculture 7 July 2005 15:28 (UTC)
 * Agree - much more useful to go to disambiguous page geodynamo 7 July 2005 15:33 (UTC)
 * Agree - Lincoln, Lincolnshire is more in keeping with other city naming conventions. Shsilver 7 July 2005 15:40 (UTC)


 * 1) Agree - Seems rather obvious to me --Outlander 7 July 2005 15:43UTC)I am sticking with this opinion - --Outlander 14:16, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Agree - As I commented on Talk:Lincoln (disambiguation). Nicola79 7 July 2005 16:06 (UTC)
 * Agree - --Rogerd July 7, 2005 16:44 (UTC)
 * Agree As I commented on the Lincoln talk page Brendan OShea 7 July 2005 17:19 (UTC)
 * 1) Agree Johnh 7 July 2005 19:56 (UTC). I don't see that the penalty in redirecting to Lincoln (disambiguation) is great, so choice 1 seems cleanest.  Choice 2 not awful, though.  Choices 3 and 4 not consistent with my expectations (much worse than 1 or 2). Johnh 17:23, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Agree Seems pretty obvious. I have no strong opinion about whether Lincoln should redirect to Lincoln (disambiguation) or should be the actual disambiguation page. older&ne;wiser July 8, 2005 00:58 (UTC)
 * Agree RivGuySC 8 July 2005 03:54 (UTC)

Choice 2. Lincoln itself should be a disambiguation page

 * 1) Agree And I agree with Taxman's comment below. DJ Clayworth 7 July 2005 17:16 (UTC)
 * 2) Agree, but and Lincoln should be the actual disambiguation page; no need for a Lincoln (disambiguation). &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 08:16, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Agree. The "Lincoln" page should not be a redirect. It should be the disambiguation page.  Going through redirects increases response time (on a human scale), so the most typed form should be the main page.  "Lincoln (disambiguation)" if not deleted would redirect to "Lincoln".  And, of course, the current content of the page should be moved to "Lincoln, Lincolnshire". -R. S. Shaw 7 July 2005 19:19 (UTC)
 * 4) Agree -this seems like a much neater way of doing it. PeterLean 08:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Agree. Disambig page should be at Lincoln itself, which goes in line with Wikipedia policy on the matter.  Grue  08:51, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Agree. Having considered the options, I'm changing my vote. Nicola79 11:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) Agree. Lincoln should be a disambiguation page.  Agree with R.S. Shaw's comments. Shsilver 11:34, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 8) 'Agree. Having a common word be a redirect is just poor practice. See my comments below. - Taxman Talk 11:54, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * 9) Agree. The disambiguation page should be located at Lincoln, and Lincoln (disambiguation) should redirect to it. Not the other way round. I cannot see why you would want it to happen the other way round - what are the advantages? -- Joolz 12:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 10) Agree Either way works fine for me actually, I just wish to see it be a disambiguation page. Agriculture 15:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 11) Agree - There are too many famous Lincolns. This is the cleanest way.  --SFoskett 15:56, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * 12) Agree - The only US President whose last name links to his page is Eisenhower, who requires no disambiguation. --Rogerd 17:14, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * 13) Agree - changing my vote following expansion of choices & research on % for other hits--JimWae 17:25, 2005 July 20 (UTC)
 * 14) Agree - refining vote Brendan OShea 18:06, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 15) Agree Pavel Vozenilek 19:37, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 16) Agree-after considering the clarified options, I think this one best addresses all concerns. I have canceled my earlier vote above. RivGuySC 00:37, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 17) Agree Seems pretty obvious. I have no strong opinion about whether Lincoln should redirect to Lincoln (disambiguation) or should be the actual disambiguation page. older&ne;wiser July 8, 2005 00:58 (UTC)
 * Since Lowellian has asked a couple of times for clarification, I'm adding my vote here also. It makes no difference to me whether the disambiguation page is at Lincoln or at Lincoln (disambiguation). older&ne;wiser 01:13, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Choice 3. Lincoln should redirect to Abraham Lincoln with a link at top to Lincoln (disambiguation)

 * Agree - but Lincoln should redirect to Abraham Lincoln, with link at top of that page to a Lincoln (disambiguation) page--JimWae 2005 July 7 16:22 (UTC)
 * Er, agree means you agree with this proposal, not a different one. DJ Clayworth 7 July 2005 17:16 (UTC)
 * The problem is this poll was set up with a false choice, giving only two options, when there are several possible other options. &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 08:16, July 20, 2005 (UTC)


 * Disagree -people searching for Abraham Lincoln will probably type "Abraham Lincoln" and there are several significant other "Lincoln"s which people may be looking for. Lincoln should be the disambiguos page with links to all the possible Lincolns. PeterLean 08:48, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Disagree - The only US President whose last name links to his page is Eisenhower, who requires no disambiguation. The rest either link to a disambig page, or to another use... Washington goes to the US State, Ford goes to the car, Cleveland goes to the city in Ohio, while Kennedy, Johnson, Adams, Nixon, Clinton, Roosevelt, Wilson, Taft, Van Buren, Fillmore and Truman all go to disambiguation pages--Rogerd 17:22, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Choice 4. Lincoln should continue to describe the city of Lincoln, Lincolnshire

 * 1) Agree - this is the most common usage and a disambiguation page adds to response time. We wouldn't consider disambiguating the London article to include every podunk town around the world that is also named London, and nor should we in this case. Rangerdude 7 July 2005 19:47 (UTC)
 * Dude, are you on crack?  Grue  7 July 2005 19:55 (UTC)
 * Type "Lincoln" into Google. There are six entirely different items on the first page alone.  Three are Abraham Lincoln, three are Lincoln University, and the Lincoln automobile and Lincoln, Lincolnshire, while first and second respectively, only each get one link.  Sounds like at least four VERY common meanings for "Lincoln".  --SFoskett July 7, 2005 21:32 (UTC)
 * 1) Obviously.  It's been around for several hundred years more than the others. Dunc|&#9786; 18:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Choice 5. Lincoln itself should be a disambiguation page &mdash; (similar to #2) Revise disambiguation page so that Abraham Lincoln or Top 5 prominently noted at the top

 * 1) Agree - it is impossible to find Abraham Lincoln (by far the most common usage and importance) on the disambiguation page. This proposal places it prominently at the top. --Noitall 04:06, July 21, 2005 (UTC)  I revised this to include a Top 5 at the top of the page. --Noitall 04:24, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * I move that this choice is non-unique, and furthermore could artificially disrupt our attempt at consensus. This sort of decision, i.e. what to do with the ordering on the disambiguation page, has nothing to do with the matter at hand and should be resolved after this vote has concluded. Agriculture 14:24, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with what Agriculture says here. This is a subset of choice #2. &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 04:06, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Comments

 * Uh guys, Lincoln should definitely be moved to Lincoln, Lincolnshire, but making Lincoln a redirect to a disambig page is awful. If you're going to do that, just make Lincoln the disambig page itself. Lincoln should either be the location of the most common, most important thing people would look for about the subject, or it should itself be a disambiguation page to the various things that topic could be. - Taxman Talk July 7, 2005 16:03 (UTC)


 * I'd think it would be easier to have it redirect to the disambig page, as it makes future changes easier, and leaves no confusing as to whether or not it is a disambiguation page. This is fairly common in Wikipedia right now. Agriculture 7 July 2005 17:11 (UTC)
 * No, there is nothing easier about it. It's just a wasted redirect, especially for such a popular topic. Future changes aren't very hard, you just move pages and create them as needed. - Taxman Talk 13:22, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * I strongly agree with Taxman. &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 08:20, July 20, 2005 (UTC) And disagree with Agriculture. &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 08:29, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Point conceeded. Agriculture 15:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)


 * False choice: This proposal [Note: "This proposal" is referring to the original proposal which only had two choices. &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 21:37, July 20, 2005 (UTC)] is a false choice. What about people who think (1) Lincoln should redirect to Abraham Lincoln or (2) Lincoln should be the disambiguation page instead of Lincoln (disambiguation)? &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 08:23, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, I have set up the third choice of wanting to make Lincoln itself a disambiguation rather than having Lincoln redirect to Lincoln (disambiguation). I have moved some votes to this choice wherein the voters clearly expressed that they preferred this. &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 08:27, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, given that User:JimWae expressed this preference, I've also added the fourth choice of wanting to make Lincoln redirect to Abraham Lincoln, with a disambiguation message on top linking to Lincoln (disambiguation). &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 08:35, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * User:Rangerdude attempts to claim that Lincoln, Lincolnshire is the most common use of the term Lincoln, I am curious what his backing is for this statement. Most people outside of the United Kingdom are unfamiliar with Lincoln, Lincolnshire as it is a very minor town of only 86,000 people.  Given the fame of US President Abraham Lincoln, and the size and importance of the Nebraska capitol Lincoln, Nebraska I find it hard to believe he can back this statement up with facts.  A search on google reveals the following:
 * 1 Lincoln Auto's, An american car manufacturer (Sponsored Link)
 * 2 Lincoln, Nebraska
 * 3 Lincoln Auto's
 * 4 Lincoln, Lincolnshire
 * 5 Lincoln University, Pennsylvania
 * 6 Lincoln University, New Zealand
 * 7 Lincoln Electric
 * 8 Abraham Lincoln
 * 9 Lincoln University, UK
 * 10 Abraham Lincoln

Inspecting for the number of links for a given reference returned by google we get the following (parenthetical numbers are precentage of total links returned for lincoln (41,400,000) represented),
 * Lincoln, Nebraska - 6,950,000 (17%)
 * Abraham Lincoln - 4,320,000 (10%)
 * Lincoln, Lincolnshire - 743,000 (2%)

I think this clearly makes the point against Lincoln, Lincolnshire, but I am curious to hear your reasoning. Agriculture 8 July 2005 02:58 (UTC)


 * This search is conclusive to me - there are too many important and popular "Lincoln" items to have Lincoln be anything more than a disambiguation page. If one item was, say, 30 or 40% of the total, it would be a different situation, but there is no clear main "Lincoln".  --SFoskett 16:04, July 20, 2005 (UTC)


 * The Lincoln page should be a disambiguation page - but the present Lincoln (disambiguation) page needs several edits to make THE 5 or so most common hits close to the top. It is presently far too difficult to navigate. --JimWae 04:08, 2005 July 21 (UTC)
 * I cleaned up the Lincoln (disambiguation) page to put the most common Lincolns at the top. --Swid 18:37, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * For the record, the Google representation for references related to Abraham Lincoln is 36,100,000 (or more than 7 times references related to Lincoln, NE).   --Noitall 21:05, July 22, 2005 (UTC)