Talk:Lincoln Highway/Archive 1

Marion Ohio Spur
Any thought of given space to discuss the 1920s attempted move of the road from its intended path from Galion, Ohio to Lima, Ohio via Marion, Ohio (Ohio Route 309)? Stu 20:09, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Washington?
would have used Bladensburg Turnpike from Baltimore - Maryland Avenue (began at Bladensburg) - somehow to Potomac Park past the Lincoln Memorial - somehow to Rockville Pike (Wisconsin Avenue from Georgetown) to Gettysburg --SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates! ) 15:55, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

1924 changes
 — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPUI (talk • contribs) 03:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * bypasses of Philly, Pittsburgh, Elkhart and Sacramento
 * detour between Rochester, PA and Canton, OH via Beaver Falls, PA and Alliance, OH
 * Marion, IA bypassed by Mount Vernon Shortcut, Mount Vernon, IA to Cedar Rapids, IA
 * Des Moines River Bridge opened west of Boone, IA, replaced Rose Ferry Bridge
 * rerouted west of Green River, WY

Nebraska
— Preceding unsigned comment added by SPUI (talk • contribs) 05:29, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Route before relocated next to the Union Pacific Railroad
 * Douglas Street Bridge in Omaha
 * Valley to Fremont on 276th Street - Pawnee Road? - 288th Street? - Dutch Hall Road - Old Highway 8

State highway numbers
— Preceding unsigned comment added by SPUI (talk • contribs) 08:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Route 1 (New Jersey pre-1927) and Route 13 (New Jersey pre-1927)
 * Pennsylvania Route 1 (1920s)
 * State Route 5 (Ohio)
 * State Route 2 (Indiana)
 * Illinois Route 22 and Illinois Route 6
 * Iowa 6
 * Highway 22 (Nebraska), Highway 38 (Nebraska), Highway 43 (Nebraska), Highway 58 (Nebraska), Highway 71 (Nebraska), Highway 82 (Nebraska), Highway 83 (Nebraska) and Highway 84 (Nebraska)
 * Wyoming - US 191 US 30 in other words, Interstate 80 as well as US 287 and Interstate 25
 * Utah - Portions of Interstate 15 and Interstate 80
 * State Route 2 (Nevada) and State Route 1 (Nevada)
 * Don't feel like dealing with California

Current definition in Illinois
--SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates! ) 16:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I didn't post the cleanup template, but I think this article is getting too big and needs to be broken up. If no one objects, I will try to do this in a couple of days. There should be a much shorter route description with a seperate article for the more detailed information. I had also considered starting a seperate article for the Lincoln Highway Association. If it can be fleshed out, I will try to do this also.Rt66lt 01:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Went ahead and created new article and moved routing information there.Rt66lt 01:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

For a few weeks over in my sandbox I've been paraphrasing and revising the Weingroff history article that drew the cleanup tag. In the next few minutes I'm going to nuke the History section and replace it with my version (scary, but it seems the right thing to do). It should bring the article length down to around 24K, much closer to the WP:SIZE happy zone. —RandallJones 01:22, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

There are two references to "BPR", apparently w/o antecedents. If the meaning is known, could it be included in the article? (If I've just missed it..., well, sorry.) PeteJacobsen 29 June 2006
 * Added "(BPR)" at first use. —RandallJones 20:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Indiana
--SPUI (T - C) 21:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Map
Could one of our resident Wikipedia cartologists draw up a map of this highway? That would be a great addition to the article. NTK 17:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Contact Paul Gilger at gilger@sonic.net. He is the Lincoln Highway association cartologist and has just completed the first ever electronic Lincoln Highway map available online using DeLorme mapping. It covers all 7700 miles of all alignments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.93.212.177 (talk) 15:04, 2 November 2006‎ (UTC)

GA comments
I note that this article is almost entirely sourced from the (presumably non-copyrighted) Federal Highway Administration essay linked to at the bottom of the page. I assume that this is acceptable, although it would be nice to see a little more original work put into the article.

It is definitely woefully under-referenced. There are quite a few direct quotations and mentions of sources that have no citations, and in order to reach GA status, all of these really need to be cited.

There's also a picture that's currently covering the table of contents, and needs to be moved. MLilburne 12:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

GA failure
I’m sorry, but I must fail this article’s GA nomination. There are a number of problems, as per What is a good article? that keep Lincoln Highway from being a Good Article.


 * 2: This article is, as MLilburne accurately states above, "woefully under-referenced". For an article of this length to have only five references and one additional source is unacceptable if an article is to be rated as a GA or higher. Huge portions of the article are completely unsourced, so how can the reader know that sections such as "Federal highways" or "Since 1940" are even remotely factual? Heck, the first sentence of "History" states that "In 1912, America's highways were just emerging from fifty years of extremely slow growth." According to whom? There's also an external jump to the Portland Cement Association for no particular reason.
 * 6: While there is no direct violation of the image criteria as stated in WP:WIAGA, per se, there are problems with the images. For one, there are far too many images. The different highways that partly make up Lincoln Highway do not need their own images, especially in the lead. There’s a photo covering the Table of Contents, which is obviously a huge issue. The panoramic image of the highway’s route simply distracts from the article. One image near the bottom of the article has been deleted.

Good luck on this article and all other editing, and I hope the problems I have mentioned above can be fixed. -- Kicking222 14:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem with External Link
On Jan 22, 2007, the link given as 1915 Video of Opening of Lincoln Highway points to www.wikipedia-mirror.co.za/lincolnhighway which produced an apparently random page that is nothing to do with Lincoln Highway and is different with every reload. For that reason I deleted it. At a later date, if anyone reading this discussion clicks the link in this paragraph and finds it is working, it should be restored. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.133.128.60 (talk) 11:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

Routing Information Incorrect?
The route of the Lincoln on this page does not match the article that it is linked to, specifically in Illinois. the lincoln NEVER entered Chicago or Illinois on Route 20, as far as I know. It entered on Sauk Trail first, then U.S. Route 30 where it crosses the border between Indiana and Illinois.

I will change this information myself soon unless someone contradicts me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.107.140.130 (talk) 23:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

1891 Mississippi River bridge
I found the photo Wagon_Bridge_Fulton_Illinois_1891.jpg, but that's all I know about it. It fits the location and timing for the Lincoln Highway bridge across the Mississippi, but didn't want to attach that photo to the article without someone else judging if it might be the Highway's bridge. I already attached the photo to the article for the current Highway bridge there, as that bridge mentions what is probably this 1891 bridge, but this Highway article is a little removed from that topic so didn't want to tinker here. -- SEWilco (talk) 03:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

First Highway...?
Was the Lincoln Highway first or the Yellowstone Trail? (http://www.yellowstonetrail.org/id2.htm) Would the question be one of semantics? Long sections of neither roadway would have, by today's standards, been considered a “highway” for decades. There does not seem to be an article in the Wikipedia on the Yellowstone Trail (which was meant more as an auto highway than what we would today understand by a trail...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zajacd01 (talk • contribs) 02:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

-The question of the "first highway" is nearly impossible to determine. There were roads (which could be called "highways") in colonial times and before. The REAL question is what was the first transcontinental highway--one that goes from coast to coast. The Lincoln Highway claims this status--but some others say the Yellowstone Trail might've been first. As per Brian Butko's book on the Lincoln Highway, the Yellowstone Trail's (YT) first goal when it was established in 1912 was to "establish and map a route from Minneapolis/St. Paul to Yellowstone Park" and it was only in 1914 when the group (the Yellowstone Trail Associaton or YTA) began to consider making the YT a coast-to-coast route. In 1915 the YT connected Chicago and Seattle--still not transcontinental. On January 14, 1917 the YTA announced that their trail was finally a transcontinetal route--"From Plymouth Rock to Puget Sound"

Meanwhile, the Lincoln Highway Association (LHA) formed in 1913 and marked the highway throughout 1914--while the YT was still just a (comparatively) short link between Minneapolis and Yellowstone.

Hope this helps clear up your confusion.


 * Besides, there's no contradiction in claims. The weblink listed above starts off with the following claim: "The Yellowstone Trail was  the first transcontinental automobile highway in the United States through the northern tier of states" (emphasis added).  This means that they're not claiming to be the first, but rather, the first through the northern reaches of the US. Unschool 02:37, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

What about the Old National Trails Road? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Old_Trails_Highway gives an "established" date of 1912; before the date on this page for the Lincoln Highway. While that article states that the route wasn't determined for some period of time; this appears to be the case for the Lincoln Highway as well. Since a precise claim in either case might be hard to verify, shouldn't this article say "one of the first transcontinental highways"? Jpgs (talk) 19:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

When was it fully paved?

 * I skimmed through this article but didn't find an answer. Seems like a significant, relevant question.
 * I'm removing the "inappropriate tone" box. There has been no discussion and the perceived problems, aren't ennumerated.

Calamitybrook (talk) 17:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Registered Historic Place????
If this is a Registered Historic Place why is this not mentioned in the article with a citation? Vegaswikian (talk) 23:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I like to know why the person who have written about the Lincoln HWY did not say that rout 40 did go by Highland Ill —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.126.23 (talk) 19:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Dough4872 and Imzadi 1979 — Why?
Why are you guys denuding the Lincoln Highway article? I, for one, like the shields and the cities list. Why this need to erase? — HarringtonSmith (talk) 02:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I won't speak to the shields, as I didn't make that change, and well, I don't agree nor disagree with it. The change I made is to eliminate the "Major cities" list from the infobox. That list has been deprecated for WP:USRD as discussed on the project talk page last year. Even if it weren't a deprecated parameter, that list made the infobox, which should be a short summary of the article, almost longer in length than the article itself. The lists were eliminated in part because there wasn't a good set of criteria to decide what cities are "major" and which aren't. The cities should already be listed in the prose. The list as it was, is both excessive, and deprecated. Imzadi1979 (talk) 03:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the prompt response, Imzadi. I can't disagree that the list was, well, overcomprehensive, but it was handier (for this user at least) to browse than having to slog through the prosaic text. Seems that a population criterion should be easy to come up with for a more manageable list. — HarringtonSmith (talk) 04:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)


 * That was rejected as a criterion. What is a major city based on population? 40K? 100K? 1M? Do we exclude cities based on population, even though they might be the major population center for an area? San Francisco actually has a small population, even though it's the core city (or one of the core cities) for a major population center. As stated on standards page:


 * "In the past, a second infobox entitled 'Major cities' was sometimes added to articles to list several prominent cities as part of the route description. However, no published secondary sources have been found that are useful for determining the inclusion or exclusion of a particular city within the box. Due to the lack of such sources, practical standards can not be set. Basing guidelines on criteria such as population, local prominence, or number of junctions/interchanges becomes a subjective exercise and a source of contention. Therefore, the use of 'Major cities' boxes has been deprecated by consensus, and similar lists should not be used in articles. Major cities should not appear outside of the article prose, except in conjunction with a major intersection or terminus entry in the article's infobox or junction table."


 * That's why I've removed it completely. The consensus about the secondary infobox also applies to the parameter used in infobox road. The parameter hasn't be deleted from the template because the template is used by other countries who have different article standards. Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow — didn't realize it was so involved. Thanks for explaining it to me! — HarringtonSmith (talk) 05:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I removed the shields from the infobox as it was taking up space and looked sloppy. ---Dough4872 02:53, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


 * There's a photograph at the top of this very page that has the same look as those shields. I didn't revert the edit, but I thought it enhanced the look of the article; now, it's just so much gray real estate. — HarringtonSmith (talk) 03:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That photo is a real photo that is meant to be a project banner. Having the shields for all the routes the Lincoln Highway follows makes it look clunky. The only shield that needs to be conveyed in the infobox is the one for the Lincoln Highway, since that is what this article is about. In addition, the shields that were infobox were only a few of the routes that followed the highway, there are more that were technically missing. Therefore, I felt it was best to remove the shields entirely. ---Dough4872 03:43, 3 March 2010 (UTC)


 * If avoiding clunky is a goal, why not do something with that incredibly unwieldy Table of Contents. — HarringtonSmith (talk) 04:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Lincoln Highway as first route
The "reference" number 1 is actually original research, not a verifiable and reliable source. Many statements made in this note are incorrect. The National Old Trails Road was conceived as early as 1911. Its full route was not only decided by 1914 at the second NOTR convention, but it was mapped and completely signed from Kansas City to Los Angeles by the Automobile Club of Southern California by 1915. The routes used in the National Old Trails Road were actually in use as wagon roads: the National Road, the first federally funded American road; the Boone's Lick Trail; the Santa Fe Trail; El Camino Real in New Mexico; and the Beale Wagon road through Arizona were all pioneer and freight trails. The Boone's Lick Road was marked by the Daughters of the American Revolution in 1913, and they marked the Santa Fe Trail route in 1911-1912. The Lincoln Highway may have determined its route very early, but much of the road did not actually exist. This was especially true in Utah. In addition, the Lincoln Highway route changed, while the National Old Trails Road maintained its route (with its alternate through Gallup, New Mexico) after 1913-14. In addition, there were other earlier routes that are often ignored. Anton Westgard established and mapped several early transcontinental routes (circa 1910-1912) that were actually driven. The Northwest Trail eventually became the routing of U.S. 10, and was identical to the Yellowstone Trail west of Miles City, MT (A.A.A map copyright 1913). His Southern Route became the Southern National Highway, a very early all-weather road, which later evolved into the Lee Highway. Westgard's most famous route, the Trail to Sunset, was laid out in 1910, and was perhaps the first transcontinental route completely mapped with strip maps by A.A.A. (copyright 1911). It is largely identical to the early National Old Trails Road. The Midland Trail, routed and named by Westgard, also dates from the 1911-1912 period. So, in other words, the universal claim by Lincoln Highway enthusiasts that it was the first transcontinental highway, is an oversimplification. Most of these early highways evolved at nearly the same time, none were entirely static, and the National Old Trails Road probably has a better claim to being first. Some source reference articles. - Parsa (talk) 17:04, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

America's Highways Reference
It may be of interest to the maintainers of this page to know that I recently posted a PDF copy of the 1977 Federal Highway Administration book "America's Highways 1776-1976" at the Internet Archive. This is a primary source used by most of the historical accounts of the US highway system. --BenFranske (talk) 06:53, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

"Notable" local streets for Category:Lincoln Highway
— Preceding unsigned comment added by SPUI (talk • contribs) 20:37, 27 February 2006
 * San Francisco
 * California Street
 * Market Street
 * Hyde Street Pier (1928)
 * East Bay
 * Foothill Boulevard
 * MacArthur Boulevard
 * Castro Valley Boulevard
 * Berkeley Pier (1928)
 * Sacramento
 * Stockton Boulevard
 * Auburn Boulevard
 * Folsom Boulevard
 * Omaha-Council Bluffs
 * Douglas Street Bridge
 * Clinton-Fulton
 * Lyons-Fulton Bridge
 * Canton
 * Tuscarawas Street
 * Pittsburgh
 * Ohio River Boulevard, Penn-Lincoln Parkway West, Penn-Lincoln Parkway East, George Westinghouse Bridge (bypasses)
 * Manchester Bridge
 * Point Bridge
 * Bigelow Boulevard
 * Baum Boulevard
 * Boulevard of the Allies
 * Forbes Avenue
 * Philadelphia
 * Lancaster Avenue
 * Market Street
 * Market Street Ferry (1913)
 * Broad Street
 * City Avenue
 * Ridge Avenue
 * Hunting Park Avenue
 * Roosevelt Boulevard
 * Trenton
 * Calhoun Street Bridge
 * Lower Trenton Bridge
 * Newark
 * Frelinghuysen Avenue
 * Broad Street
 * Market Street
 * Jersey City
 * John F. Kennedy Boulevard
 * Holland Tunnel (1928)
 * New York
 * Edgewater Ferry
 * 42nd Street

Some suggestions to improve the article
Imzadi1979 (talk) 06:17, 3 March 2010‎
 * 1) The article should be using summary style. The Routing section should be broken into subsections by state(s). Other multi-state highways have sub articles by state.
 * 2) It's perfectly acceptable, and in fact preferable, to use abbreviations in the article. The very first time a US Highway is mentioned, it could be  or  . Also, there are probably state-detail articles for all the US Highways already, and if they don't exist, the redirects should be in place already.
 * 3) This article should be in full prose, not bulleted lists of highways that make up the routing.
 * 4) The hatnotes at the top of the Routing and History sections makes it look like those section were directly lifted from the articles. If it wasn't the case (and it shouldn't be that way), then those hatnotes should be removed, and converted to footnotes as appropriate.
 * 5) Please note that US Numbered Highways are not "Federal Highways". They are all state highways with common numbers and shields.
 * 6) All direct quotes need to have references, or they need to be removed from the article.
 * 7) Boldface text should not appear outside of the Lead section normally. It should only be used for the subject and other names that redirect to this article. Wikilinks and bolding should not be mixed.
 * 8) The Music and Literature sections should have their subsections eliminated. They all separate off single paragraphs, when they could just be one section of many paragraphs. Actually, I'd make these two sections, and the Radio, Television and Film sections all subsections of a "Popular culture" section. The medical reference could be reworked as part of an introduction to the top of this section. Something like "The Lincoln Highway has as history of being the subject of music, books and films. In the field of medicine, the Carotid sheath, which is the deep layer of the deep cervical fascia... " would be appropriate to start the whole section on popular culture.
 * 9) There are footnotes that are references and some that are explanatory notes. There is a way to separate them.  will produce a superscript with a number like [note 1] and then using the   attribute in the reflist template will group them all below, separate of the main references list.
 * 10) One further set of comments here is in order about linking.
 * 11) A lot of the wikilinks can be eliminated. Common terms do not need to be linked.
 * 12) There lists in the lead that consist only of wikilinks. These should be paired down or eliminated. All of the states through which the highway passes should be mentioned elsewhere in the article, so a list of them all, forming a river of bluelinks in the lead is excessive. Three other auto trail names are sufficient in a sentence.
 * 13) There are lot of external links in the middle of the article prose. These should be removed and placed in the External links or Further reading sections, or used as references in footnotes.
 * 14) Some of the external links included really should be links to other articles on Wikipedia, like the Lincoln Highway Association National Mapping Committee link in the Mapping section. That could be a piped like like
 * 15) Song links should be eliminated completely. Where appropriate, 30-second sound clips can be created and uploaded and included in the article using the listen template. If you want a sample of how that looks, the Ferris State University article has clips of the school's fight song and alma mater song included in the article. {P.S. Songs, like article titles or chapter titles, are usually set in quotes, not italics. Italics is reserved for the full work, like an album, book or magazine title.

Request Additional detail - challenge of breaking new ground for roads (technical) and eminent domain
Proposing an idea for this article. Are there any experts who know about the following two subjects related to this article? - eminent domain - how much land did the government need to acquire to build this highway, and how did they go about it? - technical - is there another wiki article that can give high level detail about historic road building? The challenge of clearing stumps, draining/diverting water, removing organic top soil, putting in a solid road bed? Particularly with 1913's technology? Thanks for considering! January2009 (talk) 13:47, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

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