Talk:Lindy Morrison

Sourcing
There's this for some of the information that's been removed. I'm not adding any of it due to the OTRS problems and note in the edit summary....FWIW the only source currently in the article looks like a self-published source to me in addition. One Night In Hackney 303  01:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Malicious misrepresentation of sources
I want to point out the malicious misrepresentation of two sources (by user Iam) in an edit of this articleon 18'th Dec 2007.

In this edit, user Iam makes claims and cites references which do not in any way support his claims, in what amounts to a malicious and underhanded attack on the reputation of Lindy Morrison.

Malicious because his hurtful claims could not be mistaken for accidental misinterpretations of those sources.

Underhanded because he attempted to slip the hurtful claims into the biography undetected, by marking his edits as minor.

He even had the effrontery to cite Wikipedia NPOV policy whilst inserting the following malicious lies into this article:

a) "Xero had the reputation of being banned from every club in Brisbane because of their low level of musicianship and shoplifting charges" when in fact the reference given THE GO-BETWEENS ARCHIVE supports neither claim. No mention of 'charges' nor does it make any claims about Xero's 'reputation'.

In fact there were no such charges and anyone claiming otherwise at Wikipedia in future best be able to produce a verifiable official document. It can't be done because there were no charges laid.

b) "securing the lowest number of votes ever for a Democrats candiate (sic) in New South Wales". The reference given is THE POLL BLUDGER. Anyone bothering to read that reference would find for themselves that the reference makes no such claim and in fact does not even mention the number of votes received by the Democratic candidate in the seat of Wentworth. The claim is also factually wrong.

Nothing but fabrication from the pen of Iam. I implore all contributors to check out his claims for themselves and join with me in condemning Iam for using Wikipedia in this despicable, underhanded and hurtful manner.

--Mark Ilsley (talk) 13:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Inaccuracy in Source used
I would also like to point out that Iam makes one further claim which is also untrue, that "she was replaced by a drum machine" in 1989. The reference given is FYFEOPEDIA.

There is some support for this interpretation of the facts in the source which claims that "Morrison's often bypassed in favour of a drum machine" during the recording of their last album, 16LL.

In fact it was LM's drum kit and not LM herself which was sometimes 'bypassed' on the recording of 16LL. Lindy programed the drum machine herself and so her (artistic) input was never 'bypassed'. She was there, she would know who programed the machine.

--Mark Ilsley (talk) 12:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Unprofessional conduct contrary to Wikipedia policy
I want to point out the unprofessional conduct by TheClashFan in twice reverting edits which sort to remove the malicious misrepresentation of sources inserted into this article by Iam on 18'th Dec 2007.

TheClashFan may or may not have known that the claims being made by Iam were malicious but the fact remains that he twice reverted edits which sort to remove these malicious claims despite the fact that the original references given by Iam did not support his claims.

I implore all contributors to read and check the references of all claims made in future and to refrain from restoring any claim which is poorly sourced.

This behaviour is to be used as grounds for a check for sockpuppet abuse.

--Mark Ilsley (talk) 13:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed restoration of previously deleted unsourced material.
I've located sources for the following material which was restored to the article by user Lindymorrison on her Revision as of 04:47, 24 March 2008 and then deleted by Daniel on his Revision as of 08:25, 24 March 2008and propose the restoration of the material.

re:

Before her time as a musician Lindy was active in Brisbane, employed by the Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islanders Legal Service, where she worked with Aboriginal activist Denis Walker to protect the rights of Aboriginal people.

She was later part of the Popular Theatre Troupe who protested against the Bjelke-Petersen led National Party government performing for free in public their sharply satirical political street theatre during a time when life in Queensland was felt to be strongly constrained by the government, select business groups, and political interests.

Morrison currently resides in Sydney with her daughter Lucinda. She works in community music [for example, the Wataboshi Festival ]. One of her part time jobs is as a community musician where she directs a group of intellectually disabled musicians known as The Junction House Band.

She also serves as a board member for the Phonographic Performance Company of Australia where she serves as a representative of registered Australian recording artists (or 'artist director', making contributions to changes in policy to benefit recording artists ) , and national casework coordinator of the benevolent society Support Act Ltd. She has also ventured into politics as an Australian Democrats candidate. She failed to win in the Federal seat of Wentworth and in the New South Wales (seat of Coogee)  state elections.

--Mark Ilsley (talk) 12:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed additional material (with references).
Lindy is also the sole author of a short workbook entitled "Australian women in rock and pop music" and made a 1 hour duration video to accompany it. Intended as student material it is housed in the National Library of Australia. Interviewees for the video include Kylie Minogue, Tina Arena and Wendy Matthews.

Lindy was also the artist in residence at South Sydney Youth Service (1998 - 2001) and was employed by TAFE as the head tutor for the music course run by SSYS. She also teaches contracts and copyright and music business modules at TAFE.

Lindy is also currently a Director on the Music Council of Australia Board.

--Mark Ilsley (talk) 02:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed infobox
As part of improving the quality of this article, I propose this infobox be added. I have used the current article to supply information but I have also added some new information.


 * Associated_acts
 * Morrison's band list from the article (except The Rainy Season) is supported by The Go-Betweens entry at Australian Rock Database (ARDb). I've reordered the listing chronologically, adding The Rainy Season last.


 * Years_active
 * May need further work, I'm not sure if Morrison's professional music career has been continuous or interrupted since 1994. Start date is from her PPCA profile. Her membership in The Go-Betweens is given as 1980–1989 by ARDb. The Go-Betweens website discography for Morrison (Go discog) shows her external releases from 1981–2002. PPCA profile indicates Morrison still performs hence I propose leaving Years_active open-ended, as is, unless a reliable reference can be found to show that Morrison has ceased performing.


 * Labels
 * From ARDb & Go discog sites.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Minor edit: Xero > Xero.Shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Unencyclopaedic language
This article reads like if it was written by a one-eyed fanboy. Note wikipedia guidelines Manual_of_Style_(biographies). At various times Belinda Morrison is referred to as "Lindy" in the article - it is standard practice to write surname only after the full name has already been mentioned at the beginning. JoannaMinogue (talk) 09:22, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

In reply: Well, fuck the the Style Police then. The Manual of Style guidelines to which you refer, are just that, guidelines and are not required.

Whether the style conventions I have adopted here are the most appropriate for this particular article is rather a fine point to take up with one as inexperienced as I at the Wikipedia game. I think rather that you behave like a bully to inexperienced contributors.

If you prefer to defer to other conventions, then I will not contest or revert. I will not devote myself to the obtuse petty objections from one such as you when there is so much more to be done.

However if you make any substantive changes of fact, you will then find me very well equipped for the fight that you so obviously spoil for.

And one further thing, 'Lindy' is simply the name by which the subject is most commonly known. Abundant respect leads me to use that name, not adulation.

And whilst we are quoting provisions at each other, Madam, I would remind you that unlike the guidelines contained in the Manual of Style, the provisions within the No_personal_attacks policy statement, are not optional. Mark Ilsley (talk) 21:24, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "Whether the style conventions I have addopted here" - You don't "own" the article regardless of what *you* may think. Guidelines are there for a reason. Majority of biographies on wikipedia are written in 3rd person, with surname in text, not first name. JoannaMinogue (talk) 08:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Methinks you are rather too *sly* to ascribe me an improper modus operandi in the face my earlier capitulation on the matter of style.Mark Ilsley (talk) 11:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason guidelines are there Madam, is to act as a guide. They are not provided for the purpose of acting as a pretext for making personal attacks on contributors. Which is exactly what you have done.Mark Ilsley (talk) 11:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I will not be bullied into changing my style. Ask nicely next time you want something.Mark Ilsley (talk) 11:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Get off MY BACK.Mark Ilsley (talk) 11:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You pretty much lost moral ground on this discussion by engaging in the same thing you've accused me of - personal attack (also evident in your previous rant against another editor User:Iam). If your style includes the spelling and grammatical errors which have plagued the article, and witnessed on this very Talk page, there is no hope of this article being improved to any encyclopaedic standard. And no I don't have to ask you for "permission", as you Mr. Ilsley do not own this article, despite appearing to make this your own walled garden. JoannaMinogue (talk) 23:59, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I asked you to get off my back and you refuse, so now I make it all about you.

Problems
I have put a few problem tags on this article. A lot of it is speculative or irrelevant. The tone also needs work. My first thought was to stub the article, but I think this is a bit too drastic. I am going to have a go at pruning it a bit. --DanielRigal (talk) 21:41, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I am going to have to gut quite a bit of the stuff about the Aboriginal Legal Services because it strays far away from the subject. I think this material might be possible to rescue and be used in a separate article about the organisation. --DanielRigal (talk) 21:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * To make it easier to reuse the stuff I am removing I am only going to comment it out. This will be a mix of stuff which is excessive here but possibly useful elsewhere, and stuff that needs to be rewritten or summarised. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:21, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I am now getting a bit worried. The main thing she is noted for is the Go Betweens, right? But there is next to nothing about that here or in the Go Betweens article. Is she really more noted for the other stuff? If so, the intro needs to be rewritten. If not, then somebody needs to add stuff about her time in the Go Betweens. I an not able to do this, so I have left the section empty and marked for expansion. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:21, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. I have done as much as I can. I think it is an improvement but there is a lot more to do. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:04, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You've done some fantastic editing Daniel. You may wish to have a look at these two links though -

JoannaMinogue (talk) 02:30, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reference 11: leads to a page with no content (http://bushtelegraph.wordpress.com/recent/#comment-3305)
 * Reference 22: page not found (https://mail.cofa.unsw.edu.au/pipermail/master-art-admin/2003-May/pdfmnqtR20H13.pdf). Thanks.

No Problems
I think I drew reasonable inferences about friendships, allegiances, conflicts of loyalty, philosophical and sociological beliefs/practices, as well as drawing together the chronology of known facts into a cohesive and well supported narration of the subjects life. That's my style. That's the way I wrote it.

However, I concede that without further confirmation to support my conclusions (perhaps, drawing on the subjects own words in these matters) some of the removed material may be regarded as concluded or supposed from evidence insufficient to ensure reliability. Whilst the encyclopedic standards of evidential support have generally not been very high at Wikipedia in that past, now is as good a time to start as any:

For example, one of my contentions was that Lindy had remained true to Roison's philosophy of "working withing the system to change it", all her life. As you can see from the newly added list of Community Based Projects, this philosophy certainly seems to have remained with her post the ALS years.

Moreover, I believe I will be able to show that one of the most enduring aspects of her work during the 'Go-Between' years was an effort to reform the music industry by working from within it! This is one of the most enduring themes of her life. As for some of the material that has been removed citing relevance, I will seek it's restoration. Particularly as regards the internal machinations of the ALS. These events, whilst certainly part of the so far unwritten history of the ALS, are also part of the life story of the subject. I completely reject the integrity of the strict segregation of subject matter that has been imposed on this article. If such a policy is taken to logical conclusion, it might be used to remove any information of events which could be included as part of the subject matter of another article.

More on this latter.

As regards to the concerns about the lack of information about the subjects role as drummer in the band 'The Go-Betweens', I am sure that more than enough material can be found in David Nichols book. I personally have no intention of drawing on it any further. My interests lay in other areas.

I do however, reject any contention that Wikipedia articles should be about what is best known or about the subject matter. If that were true, not only would Wikipedia become a very dull read, it would also be a delinquent documentary of facts. Many facts are not well known. Ipso facto.

I also take exception to user DanielRigal's flagrantly biased implementation of Wikipedia policy by selectively removing material characterised as a personal attack on one editor (JoannaMinogue) whilst seemingly ignoring epithets given by her to an unnamed contributor. This could not be more starkly in opposition to the stated Wikipedia policies of both even-handedness in settling disputes, and of not commenting on contributors.

I suggest that DanielRigal and JoannaMinogue are in collusion on this matter and are starkly in contravention of wikipedia policy in their actions to date.

Mark Ilsley (talk) 14:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have in no way communicated with JoannaMinogue and her only communication with me is that which you see here on this page. I removed the attack section here because it was blatantly abusive and unconstructive in a way that her comments were not. I was doing you a favour by removing something that could have got you into trouble. Go back in the page History and reread what you wrote and ask yourself whether it really presents you in a favourable light? Please read the header at the top of this page for advice in how to conduct discussion on a talk page. --DanielRigal (talk) 16:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know Daniel either in real life or on here personally. However edits by yourself such as adding "and certifiably is a living Saint." is hardly encyclopaedic and highlights what I was saying earlier about your editing. If you wish to write praises of a person, wikipedia is not the place for it WP:NOTSOAPBOX. Furthermore I would like to know what Mark Ilsley's involvement is with Lindy Morrison as it could likely be a WP:COI issue here. JoannaMinogue (talk) 03:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Inaccuracy in Music career (1).
The sentence "Forster and McLennan wrote all the tracks, they alternated lead vocal duties, except "People Know" which had Morrison on vocals and James Freud (Models) guesting on saxophone.[16][17]" is misleading. The word "except" is not appropriate. Forster sings the lead vocal on "People Know", so the inference that he (or McLennan) did not sing lead vocal on that track is completely wrong.

The credit to Lindy on the Album notes (note [16] in this article) is accurate as written on the inner sleeve, but the suggestion that Forster (or McLennan) did not actually sing the lead vocal is misleading.

The credit is for backing vocal only (on that track) and as anyone could confirm, it is barely audible in the original mix as released.

I suggest the following wording should be adopted. "Forster and McLennan wrote all the lyrics, alternating on lead vocals. Morrison sings backing vocals on "People Know", a track which also features James Freud (Models) guesting on saxophone.[16][17]"

The substitution of the word "lyrics" for "tracks" is not insubstantial either. The fact of the matter is that the label clearly states "All songs are joint person & group compositions".

Mark Ilsley (talk) 15:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Omission in Music career (2).
Morrison also gets equal credit for all musical compositions on "Before Hollywood" and some credit for all musical compositions on "Very Quick on the Eye ~ Brisbane, 1981"

Mark Ilsley (talk) 15:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070901050345/https://mail.cofa.unsw.edu.au/pipermail/master-art-admin/2003-May/pdfmnqtR20H13.pdf to https://mail.cofa.unsw.edu.au/pipermail/master-art-admin/2003-May/pdfmnqtR20H13.pdf
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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110320092637/http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au:80/resources/nswelectionsanalysis/2003/Coogee.htm to http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/resources/nswelectionsanalysis/2003/Coogee.htm
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Spring Hill Fair
I am taking out this sentence from the section on the Social work.

"Spring Hill Fair would later become the name of The Go-Betweens 3'rd studio album (1984) although it isn't clear that this is a reference to the Uniting Church hall on Leichhardt Street."

The Spring Hill Fair was an annual event. It was not confined to one church hall. Robert Forster's memoir, Grant & I, makes it clear that it was Grant McLennan who named the album, after the event. See also the Wikipedia article on the album which uses other sources to explain exactly why the album was so named, without any reference to a church hall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vonhangman (talk • contribs) 06:37, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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