Talk:Linux/Archive 29

WTF Penguin?!?
Mac has a freakin' apple, at least that makes sense, but what does Linux have, a penguin just sitting there, waiting to become sober? 10/22/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by L1QU1D5N4KE (talk • contribs) 20:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * For the answer to this question see Tux - Ahunt (talk) 20:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place to such discussion. 189.87.149.23 (talk)NeoStrider —Preceding undated comment added 11:34, 30 November 2009 (UTC).

j vm
.n. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.239.13 (talk) 07:51, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Great. You were saying?  You may want the article "jvm" (I love the simple questions).  &mdash;Aladdin Sane (talk) 08:08, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

What is a staging driver?
nouveau was accepted as a staging driver into Linux yesterday. What does that mean exactly? 85.131.29.222 (talk) 17:08, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * See this. man with one red shoe 20:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

MINIX vs Minix
In some areas of the article it says MINIX and others Minix. It should be consistant. The question is, which should it be? Unknowntbeast (talk) 00:19, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * In MINIX article is constantly used MINIX, we should do the same here. man with one red shoe 01:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree. I use the presumption that the editors of the other article have at least got that much correct; the spelling of whatever it is.  Sometimes I'm wrong.  Oh, well.  Even if it is incorrect, it can still be presumed as the "Wikipedia standard" for spelling that item or term.  &mdash;Aladdin Sane (talk) 02:11, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I made the change, even on the official site this is the used spelling: http://www.minix3.org/ man with one red shoe 02:18, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Version numbers
I see Linux version numbers in the infobox, although the article states that it is not about the kernel. I think N/A would be much better.

All too often people claim having problems with Linux 8.10 or the like. We should not add to the confusion. The distributions have version numbers, the kernel has and the different programs have, but there is no authority giving numbers to the "Linux OS" this article claims to be about.

--LPfi (talk) 13:20, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * While the article is not directly about the kernel, it's not like it's a separate and irrelevant issue. If you remove info about the Linux kernel in this article what does it remain? What will we describe in this page? This article is about the OS based on Linux kernel, that's what we talk about, thus the kernel version number is highly relevant. Oh, and by the way, hearsay and what mistakes people makes on the Interwabs is not relevant for an encyclopedia. man with one red shoe 14:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The article is not about the OS based on Linux kernel. It is about software development platform based Linux operating system. But the article is biased and irrelevant because the computer science books about operating system is against this article. Golftheman (talk) 09:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The kernel is certainly relevant for the article, yes. If the infobox said "latest version of the kernel" it would be relevant and correct (that is why I pointed it out here instead of removing the numbers). Now it reads more or less "This article is not about the kernel but about the OS. The latest release is 2.6.xx", which clearly suggests that it is the OS version numbers that are cited. Those who recognize the numbers as kernel version numbers are not mislead, but anyone new to Linux is.


 * And what mistakes people do is relevant for an encyclopedia. The encyclopedia should point out common misunderstandings and put its words so that they cannot be mistaken as supporting the misconceptions.


 * --LPfi (talk) 09:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * What about Tux then? This discussion was carried over and over again, it has decided to keep Tux and kernel version there because they are relevant, if you want you can change the text to make it clear. As for some mistakes that people make on forums is irrelevant, Wikipedia is about relevant source and encyclopedic information, the fact that you've seen a random person on a random page saying that they use Linux 8.10 is just as relevant as hearing your kid saying I don't know what idiocy and then rushing over to make it clear on Wikipedia that is not so. Remember, the key words are "reliable sources" that's what matters here. man with one red shoe 13:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The Tux is the official logo of the Linux operating system. GNU is a official logo for the GNU Project and it has nothing to do with the Linux operating system (aka monolithic kernel). If this article would be about reliable sources, the GNU information here would not state anything else than that GNU/Linux is propaganda and misinformatio what should not be used. But there is very strong emotions (and only such) about GNU/Linux so the technical fact about Linux can not exist on this article. So just by the current status, the Linux and Tux could be removed from this article because it would not make the article including more misinformation. And there is no pointing out the common misunderstanding about GNU/Linux = Linux. Yeah, that is about the GNU/Linux v. Linux but it will always be because the article itself is now biased and spreading misinformation and GNU propaganda and it will never be over until the computer science about operating systems gets changed so that GNU would really be part of the Linux when it comes about operating systems. Golftheman (talk) 09:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps this could be solved as simply as changing the infobox where it says "Latest stable release: 2.6.28 (December 24, 2008)" to read "Latest stable release: Kernel 2.6.28  (December 24, 2008)". That should eliminate the confusion. - Ahunt (talk) 14:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That would not make it better anyway. This article is just about Linux. It is a peace of software, not somekind mystical blackbox what can not be seen. If there would be technical people without biased viewpoint, all the GNU stuff would be removed from this article, actually the whole article would be removed and the Linux_kernel article would be renamed to this. The Linux release number is the only release number what has meaning for the OS. GNU has nothing to do with the Linux OS and that is so BIG misunderstanding in the whole article and the reason why the whole article should be removed. Golftheman (talk) 09:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * There is another problem with the version in the infobox OS template of this article and the Linux kernel, both indicate that the latest version is 2.6.2x, so we have to change both articles to update to the latest kernel version. We should only use one template, there is already one in this article Template:Latest_stable_software_release/Linux, but Linux kernel has another that is no in use in the article Template:Latest_stable_software_release/Linux_kernel. I think it is better if we use the one of Linux kernel because it is about the kernel, and in this article use the template to bring the information from Linux Kernel. So this would be like Ahunt said: Kernel

Latest stable software release/Linux kernel
 * . --KDesk (talk) 21:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Ubuntu/Linux on Windows?
Hello fellow editors, I'm not 100% sure if this is real/possible, but here is are some screens of Ubuntu/Linux running on Windows:

http://hacktolive.org/wiki/Portable_Ubuntu_for_Windows

Maybe if it is indeed true we should add some info about that in this page. I will leave it to an expert... Jerebin (talk) 00:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes it is legit, I just added that info. SF007 (talk) 00:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

It's perfectly possible, it uses Colinux Kernel man with one red shoe 03:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't you just dual-boot to Linux? --Technology is the future 17:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexSeibz (talk • contribs)


 * Not possible. The screenshot Ubuntu running on Windows is not about Linux operating system (= the kernel). It is a screenshot about Ubuntu distribution and more specific, a GNOME desktop environment themed by Canonical's own style, running in Windows. You can not see the Linux operating system (= the kernel) at that screenshot at all. And it is just more biased for Ubuntu promoting it as it would make it possible, while it is not. Golftheman (talk) 09:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Here, have a wikilink, it's on the house. We have an encyclopedia lying around here somewhere if you'd like to learn more.  &mdash;Aladdin Sane (talk) 09:41, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Constant removal of Linux on Windows image
It seems two editors are very interested in removing an image of without getting any consensus/opinion whatsoever first and claiming "there seems to be a consensus that this doesn't belong here" while there is not proof whatsoever that this is true. Please avoid removing that again without getting consensus, because from what an wikipedianist I know told me, consensus is one of the bases of the "wikipedia model" and the ones wanting to change the status quo are the ones that need to get consensus. Please try to be neutral (Neutral point of view) and not anti-windows. And also stop using weak arguments like "this is not a proper source" or "linux does not run on windows without Colinux", the information can be easily confirmed at the official website or other websites, like lifehacker, and the caption can be reworded to be accurate. Anyway, anyone has any good reasons not to keep this? I think that this is not only relevant, but VERY relevant. 85.240.105.138 (talk) 21:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention explanations for removal like "nfcc", that mean nothing... 85.240.105.138 (talk) 21:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for starting off this debate! I would like to say that I am opposed to including the CoLinux image, simply because this is an overview article and it cannot mention every application that can be run on Linux. I think it is fine to have the Cooperative Linux article, but that is where this image and caption belong, not in this article. - Ahunt (talk) 21:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly because it is an overview article is that I think it is relevant. This is not an application that runs on Linux, but a modified version of Linux Kernel that runs on Windows. Off course we can't list all types of machines that can run Linux, but we have an overview like "cellphones, supercomputers, etc...". I think this is quite relevant since it a bit different from what a Virtual Machine is, yet, it allows one OS to run alongside another... 85.240.105.138 (talk) 21:42, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not true. According to the CoLinux page, Windows and Linux are run in parallel like coroutines. From this it sounds like it is not running directly on Windows. Since it won't run on Windows without CoLinux, it doesn't actually run on Windows at all, but within a Windows app. So the connection is indirect and it should NOT be depicted here. Yworo (talk) 21:49, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You are arguing about words "It does not run on windows" vs "it runs in parallel to windows": this is not relevant, from a normal-user point of view people say that program "run on windows", even if they are not really running on the windows kernel or something like that... And of course it does not run without Colinux, just like the linux kernel by itself is useless and does not run on any hardware. That does not mean Linux is not related to the x86 architecture... Yes, it runs Windows inside a windows app, how else would it run? since we are talking about windows? Off course we could not just take the kernel and run it on windows like any other app. Anyway, I think this is relevant, and not "indirect", like you say...


 * You said that Linux kernel is useless alone and does not run on the hardware? That is just BS. The linux kernel is monolithic. It is the complete operating system. And no one use just the operating system for anything else than operating the hardware and controlling the software on the computer. It has no other purpose to exist. You can run linux kernel alone on pure hardware, without any other software because the linux kernel is the operating system. And technically the CoLinux is not running top of the NT (operating system in Windows) but side of it. Even that you can see it as a window in the Windows shell, it does not make it run top of it. It is like saying that using a terminal on plasma-desktop to connect to screen on remote server is saying that program running on shell is running on that computer and not in the server. Golftheman (talk) 09:32, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, what nfcc meant was that the image is non-free. An screenshot of Linux falls under the GNU GPL. However a screenshot of Windows is not free, it contains material copyright by Microsoft. By Wikipedia rules, such a non-free image can only appear on an article related to its copyright holder. The image could be put in the article on Windows, for example, but it can't be used here. The same issue arises with the images of book covers. They can't just be used anywhere, but only on an article about the book. Yworo (talk) 21:58, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please, that is utterly untrue, we have fair-use you know? "such a non-free image can only appear on an article related to its copyright holder" <-- This is not true and the wikipedia policy says nothing about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content_criteria

No it's not. It's to protect Wikipedia and it's taken seriously. Go ahead and ask at MCQ if you like. As for consensus, it's current 2 to 1 against in this discussion. In actuallity, the consensus against is much higher, as the image has been removed mutiple times by multiple editors with accounts since it was first added, for a number of different reasons, but primarily because of it's non-free status. Yworo (talk) 22:09, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Let me just point you to the article about utorrent: the image contains parts of the windows interface and it is still under fair-use. This is case is also clearly fair-use.

I was the one that uploaded that to use on the CoLinux article! I can't really give my opinion if the image should be in this article, since I don't know too much about the Linux kernel (still a bit of a Linux newbie!). I think that if it is in fact the Linux kernel alongside Windows it is a notable achievement. However, if it is just a program to "mimic Linux" (similar to wine), then I don't think it should be here. Also: please avoid edit-wars and respect Consensus - SF007 (talk) 22:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is de facto the Linux Kernel and not an app that "mimics linux".

85.x.x.x: Please don't intersperse comments. You should not break up other's comments, but always add your comments at the end. And all comments should be signed. You've made a mess of the discussion. The uTorrent article only shows the application window, it doesn't show the taskbar or other Windows specific content. There's a reason for that. Yworo (talk) 22:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * this wiki-language is a mess, sorry if I broke someth... And regarding the non-free image, we can easily crop the image to show only the app, or even make a new one. see? "non-free" problem solved! 85.244.232.37 (talk) 22:52, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The screenshot does not belong in an article that does not mention the concept of running Linux on Windows. If it did mention it, we probably wouldn't need a screenshot to explain it, which means the screenshot would violate the "No free equivalent" rule at Non-free content. Also, there is no need at all to use a screenshot that includes the non-free Firefox logo. - Josh (talk | contribs) 22:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Also there are other considerations, like undue weight. The market share of Linux running on Windows is practically nil, so including the image is giving undue emphasis to something hardly anyone does with Linux. You are welcome to show that I'm wrong by showing that running Linux on Windows using CoLinux has a substantial market share of the Linux market. Yworo (talk) 22:57, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If we crop the image (or take a new screenshot) the image is considered "free" so that is not an issue. Just like the google chrome image. Not to mention that CoLinux is relevant, so relevant even LifeHacker talks about it. Not to mention that removing the image just due to licensing is a very weak argument (due to fair-use and the fact we can crop the image, etc...) 85.244.232.37 (talk) 23:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a lot of non-free content to crop out of the image. The leftovers wouldn't really be useful. File:Google Chrome.png's licensing information is inaccurate; the image includes a Windows titlebar. - Josh (talk | contribs) 23:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The google chrome image is not cropped and yet is is accepted... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.112.248 (talk) 23:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The Google Chrome screenshot being used on Google Chrome is acceptable, because that article is about Chrome and it is impossible to show (a released version of) Chrome without showing Windows. We certainly can and do show Linux without showing non-free software such as Windows or the Firefox logo. - Josh (talk | contribs) 00:05, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The consensus is clearly against including the image. None of us have been or are likely to be swayed by your arguments. And there are several other users who have not commented in this discussion who have removed the image giving one or another of these reasons for its removal. This is what I meant when I said the consensus was against it, I could tell from the number of different users who had removed it, compared to a single ip user edit warring to attempt to include it. Yworo (talk) 23:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Including you also "edit-warring"... And there were me and other user adding it, and two users (you and Fasach Nua) trying to remove it without gathering consensus first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.241.112.248 (talk) 00:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Consensus does not have to be gotten on the talk page. See Consensus as a result of the editing process. None of the editors except you violated the 3RR rule, which prohibits a single user from making more than 3 reverts in a 24 hour period. See the flowchart... The fact that you can't keep the image in the article indicates that those who oppose it outnumber those who support it. I think that's pretty simple math. Yworo (talk) 00:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think at this point we can say that there is no consensus to include this image, regadless of the non-free status of the image. I have yet to see anyone support including it, with the exception of User:85.241.112.248 (etc). - Ahunt (talk) 00:09, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the image, after reading more about the topic, it seems CoLinux uses in fact the Linux kernel, so I think the image is appropriate. - SF007 (talk) 00:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

A number of things about the removal of Image:Ubuntu on Windows - Firefox vs Firefox.png caused red flags for me. The first removal by Fasach Nua I assumed was due to the removal of the Non-free image rationale templates from the image. However, after further research and the second removal by Fasach Nua, I can no longer assume good faith. Fasach Nua has a clear bias against non-free content and has history of removing non-free images from articles for no reason other than they have a non-free template of some kind. This can be seen in their talk page history and contributions. The subsequent removals of this image by Yworo with edit summaries such as "there seems to be a consensus that this doesn't belong here; take to talk" when this has not been brought up on the talk page I found just as strange due to the fact that Yworo has been active on Wikipedia for less than two months and mainly seems to make semi-automated edits to remove the phrases "it is important to note that" and "Ironically, the" from large numbers of articles. As for the actual free vs non-free status of this image, it is actually rather complicated and this image is probably more free than non-free. Mozilla Firefox itself is free software but the Firefox logo is not free. However, since the Firefox logo is not the main subject of discussion it is considered to be de minimis and it does not make the image itself non-free. Firefox is also probably the best application to show as a side by side comparison of both versions running simultaneously on different operating systems on the same machine due to familiarity, availability, and the fact that it can display the operating system information in its About window. Screenshots of software running on Microsoft Windows are also not automatically considered to be non-free, although there are people who think that is the case. The Windows user interface and icons are not the main subject of discussion and are also considered de minimis (this particular issue has come up numerous times on Commons and it tends to divide editors). As for whether or not this image should be present on Linux, I'd say it does belong. That said, if this image is to be considered non-free, there should be a few sentences that actually describe what it is that this image is showing vs it just being eye candy (it seems like there used to be, but they may have been edited out). If the image is considered free, then it can be included without any copyright issues, eye candy or not. --Tothwolf (talk) 04:19, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Please restrict your comments to the content being disputed. Editor's opinions or how they choose to edit are not relevant to the discussion. Yworo (talk) 16:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Quack, quack, WP:DUCK. --Tothwolf (talk) 22:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why a Duck? Yworo (talk) 01:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep: I am not a great "techie", but having Linux/Ubuntu running alongside Microsoft Windows without the problems of a traditional Virtual Machine seems a great/important achievement. Jerebin (talk) 23:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Omit - non-free image, undue weight. Yworo (talk) 00:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - not significant enough to be in the Linux article. - Ahunt (talk) 00:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation
"(commonly pronounced /ˈlɪnʌks/, LI-nuks in English[4][5], also pronounced /ˈlɪnʊks/[6])"

Here in Canada, almost everyone I know pronounces it /ˈlɪnəks/ or /ˈlɪnɪks/. I think that /ˈlɪnʌks/ is a transcription error of somebody who confused /ə/ for /ʌ/. Amirite? --69.165.150.132 (talk) 02:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Most likely, yes. They were probably thinking of the vowel they'd use if producing the word carefully (as in /fʌkɪŋ/, which would more often be pronounced closer to /fəkɪn/), except this is about the common pronunciation a proper name, so we should probably go with what people actually say, which should be the version with a schwa (personally, I never say /ˈlɪnʊks/ in English). -- 134.95.158.199 (talk) 18:01, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Automate archiving?
Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days.--Oneiros (talk) 20:21, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * No objection to auto-archiving. From a "rough feel" of where the conversations tail off, and my own personal preference as to how much remains, I recommend 120 days.  &mdash;Aladdin Sane (talk) 21:24, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * So long? I'll configure it to keep ten threads.--Oneiros (talk) 22:02, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I've no doubt compromise can be reached. :-)  &mdash;Aladdin Sane (talk) 22:37, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've set it up with 60 days and ten threads. The bots should start in the next 24h.--Oneiros (talk) 17:13, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * after User:Thumperward changed the parameters.--Oneiros (talk) 19:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

up until now I've been manually archiving the talk here: I've avoided this article because I became fed up of being harrassed by editors both on- and off-wiki for ideological reasons, but I pop in now and then. I've re-adjusted the parameters of the archiving to match those of the existing archives. If there's any further discussion on this then please consider pinging me before, y'know, picking an entirely new archiving strategy on 24 hours' notice. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:27, 21 January 2010 (UTC)