Talk:Lions' Den (militant group)

Name
Lion's Den = Den of Lion

Lions' Den = Den of Lions Selfstudier (talk) 21:32, 20 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Moved. Selfstudier (talk) 14:19, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Undiscussed move and repeated move after reversion

 * curprev 12:19, 26 October 2022 Selfstudier talk contribs m 552 bytes 0  Selfstudier moved page Talk:Lions' Den (group) to Talk:Lions' Den over a redirect without leaving a redirect undothank
 * curprev 11:56, 24 October 2022 Dunutubble talk contribs m 552 bytes 0  Dunutubble moved page Talk:Lions' Den to Talk:Lions' Den (group): Can easily be mixed up with Lion's Den undothank
 * curprev 14:19, 22 October 2022 Selfstudier talk contribs 552 bytes +104  →Name: Reply undothank Tags: Reply Source
 * curprev 14:17, 22 October 2022 Selfstudier talk contribs m 448 bytes 0  Selfstudier moved page Talk:Lion's Den (group) to Talk:Lions' Den without leaving a redirect: Possessive plural and disambiguation not needed undothank
 * thanks for catching this move by Selfstudier. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:40, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the article was set up with the wrong title in the first place ('s) instead of (s') (see section above where I raised this), the latter doesn't need disambiguation, whereas the first would have done. Selfstudier (talk) 16:52, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 26 October 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved to Lions' Den (militant group). per discussion consensus. In assembled editors, WP:PRECISE and WP:DEFINING were the most convincing arguments which received a plurality of support. WP:DIFFPUNCT is a fair point, but was less convincing to editors here, who pointed out the ambiguity of punctuation in this case is extremely confusing to our readers, given that the militancy of this group is one of its defining characteristics. I will also retarget the redirect to Lion's Den per this discussion. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Shibboleth ink  (♔ ♕) 18:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Lions' Den → Lions' Den (group) – Can easily be mixed up with Lion's Den and Lions' den. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 12:40, 26 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 17:38, 5 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose The disamb page Lion's Den is for instances with 's. This is s' and there is no other instance (the Lions' den mentioned above (small d) was a redirect to Daniel in the lions' den, idk why, so I have redirected it to this article instead), then the best procedure is a hatnote, which I have now added.Selfstudier (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Why would you redirect lions' den to the militant group? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:30, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Why would you redirect lions' den to the militant group? Where did I do that? Selfstudier (talk) 16:59, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * here :curprev 16:31, 26 October 2022 In ictu oculi talk contribs 38 bytes +14  Undid revision 1118339621 by Selfstudier (talk) undo Tags: Redirect target changed Undo curprev 13:22, 26 October 2022 Selfstudier talk contribs  24 bytes −14  This is the right article undothank Tags: Redirect target changed Reverted 10 November 2012 curprev 01:59, 10 November 2012 Pmj talk contribs  38 bytes +38  ←Redirected page to Daniel in the lions' den thank ]In ictu oculi (talk) 17:33, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Lions' den (note L, not l) was a redirect, and now you have reverted it to, Daniel in the lions' den, which is obvious nonsense. I had changed it to redirect to this article, which is logical (it could also just be deleted). Selfstudier (talk) 17:51, 26 October 2022 (UTC)


 * You seem to be edit-warring. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:41, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * My first move was to correct the wrong title ('s instead of s'). and since it doesn't need disambiguation in the absence of any other instance, I removed the "group" designation (which would also be wrong even if disambig applied). Selfstudier (talk) 17:03, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support - Void RM and return to stable title per |Lions_Den_Match|Lion%27s_Den|Lions%27_den|The_Lions%27_Den|Lion%27s_Den_(mixed_martial_arts)|Lion%27s_Den_(2008_film)|Lion%27s_Den_(1988_film) PAGEVIEWS or better Lions' Den (militant group) this article clearly isn't a Primary Topic given so many minutely different titles. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:55, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * All the disambig titles are 's not s', this is a new article that was set up with the wrong name ('s instead of the correct s' which I correctly changed it to) just two weeks ago so there is no stable title and page views over two weeks are irrelevant. Selfstudier (talk) 16:57, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The above pageviews analysis omitted a couple of key pages pertinent to this discussion. I've added them to the list, and extended the duration to 30 days: |Lions_Den_Match|Lion%27s_Den|Lions%27_den|The_Lions%27_Den|Lion%27s_Den_(mixed_martial_arts)|Lion%27s_Den_(2008_film)|Lion%27s_Den_(1988_film)|Lions%27_Den|Daniel_in_the_lions%27_den Better pageviews analysis – wbm1058 (talk) 13:52, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: The navigation is very messy around the various iterations of the capitalization and position of the apostrophe. It's a veritable rabbit warren of dodgy redirects and more naturally lends itself to confusion than clarity. Take also "Lions Den" with capitalization but no apostrophe - this goes to a mixed martial arts page. Caution on the side of disambiguation. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:06, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe but can be handled with hatnotes and dodgy redirects like that one and the Daniel one should be cleaned up. Otherwise you have to have a disamb page that covers all the variants and not just the 's. Selfstudier (talk) 21:16, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know if there is any policy or any guidelines around the 's/s' divide in naming, or any past precedent in naming/redirect discussions? Iskandar323 (talk) 21:54, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The nearest other page I can find is a book, The Lions' Den, which is not disambiguated but has a hatnote as follows:
 * -For the biblical episode, see Daniel in the lions' den
 * -For other uses, see Lion's Den
 * As I mentioned already, I think the first is just nonsense, people searching for lions den (in any form) are imo unlikely to be searching for the biblical account and the second is the same as the hatnote I added to this article. If it is good enough there, I don't see why it would not be good enough here. The WP:DAB essay doesn't really help but suggests common sense. Selfstudier (talk) 10:47, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should probably be all or nothing. If it's deemed that there should be no distinction between capitalization and apostrophe, then Lions' den, as well as the 2019 book The Lions' Den, should also go to the central redirect as well. But at the moment there are some versions that have survived redirection/disambiguation. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:38, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * A disambiguation page for Lion's Den is necessary because so many different cases of 's.
 * But for the possessive s', there is only this article and the book (ignoring the dodgy Lions' den redirect to Daniel). If someone arrives at either of those and it wasn't what they were looking for, the hatnote will send them to the disambiguation page so they can choose. Selfstudier (talk) 12:13, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The 2019 is currently also appearing on the disambiguation page, even with the other apostrophe position, so there's no consistency. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:17, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't really have a problem with those links appearing on the disambiguation page, only with whether the two pages with s' need disambiguation in their title. Selfstudier (talk) 12:53, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose: The combination of capitalization and a final rather than penultimate apostrophe is reasonably disambiguated and readers should be able to arrive direct to this page (especially given the subject's rising relevance) rather than navigate the already tortuously cluttered Lion's Den disambiguation page before arriving back here. It's unclear who that would serve. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:05, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment I've redirected Lions' den and Lions Den to the dab page, as it doesn't make sense for them to all go to different targets. I think Lions' Den should also redirect to the dab, but no strong preference for it. Natg 19 (talk) 01:11, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment - following a note on my talk page, it appears I made an error in reading the punctuation of the original title of this page. To avoid confusion I'll therefore relist to allow discussion to continue. I will review this further in the coming days and may cast a !vote and another editor can close. Cheers &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 17:38, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment While I do not believe that this title really requires disambiguation and that a hatnote is sufficient, should it turn out that the final consensus is nevertheless for disambiguation, then we need an alternative to "group", which could mean anything, perhaps something like (Palestinian faction).Selfstudier (talk) 18:19, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:PRECISE. There are few cases where WP:DIFFPUNCT is actually practical, and this is clearly not one of them.  I have no opposition to using something more specific than "(group)".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:15, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Then The Lions' Den should also be disambiguated as (book)? Selfstudier (talk) 22:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Selfstudier, per WP:SUBTITLES, When the most commonly used name is ambiguous, the full title and subtitle might be suitable to be used as a form of natural disambiguation (see WP:NATURALDIS). That page was moved off the title The Lions' Den: Zionism and the Left from Hannah Arendt to Noam Chomsky on 25 December 2019 with the move summary giving WP:SUBTITLE as the reason for the move. The same reason could be used to justify moving it back to the original title. – wbm1058 (talk) 21:37, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Support Lions' Den (militant group). Disambiguating by the position of the apostrophe is ludicrous. Completely unhelpful to our readers. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:28, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Palestinian militant groups is the WP:DEFINING category for this topic, so (militant group) seems appropriate for disambiguation. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Correcting the logo picture of the lions' den group
The logo used in the wikipedia article of the lions' den does not fully match with their official logo that is used by themselves in their marches and events (source: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/10/26/who-are-the-lions-den-armed-group-in-occupied-west-bank-explainer ) nor with the one used to represent themselves in their official communication channels such as the one in telegram. Difference can be observed in the font of the Arabic text on the logo and the presence of a shadow figure holding a slingshot and a weapon, among other things.

I suggest the logo be changed to the one they officially use for themselves. I have uploaded their official logo to wikimedia here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D8%B4%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%B1_%D8%B9%D8%B1%D9%8A%D9%86_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%AF.png BobaDoda1 (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Excessive timeline
The timeline in the article is way too detailed. How is a flag photo and a bunch of bullets being fired without harming anyone notable enough to deserve mention in a Wikipedia article? The timeline should be turned into a prose section, in my opinion. Mucube (talk • contribs) 17:05, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

25 October
The source says "At least three who died have been identified as members of Lion's Den, including a senior commander and founder of the group, Wadi al-Houh, 31. Israeli media say all five belonged to it although, according to locals two of those killed were civilians uninvolved in the fighting." Our article should represent the disagreement rather than what it currently says, which is "Three Lions' Den militants were killed, including leader and co-founder Wadee al-Houh. Two Palestinian civilians were also killed in the nearby areas."

We can't use Wikipedia's voice to take the side of "according to locals" nor "Israeli media." Instead both should be mentioned, as the source does. FrankForAllAndBirds (talk) 14:57, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 November 2023
Delete :Funding The group receives undisclosed amounts of funds from Hamas.[15]

The source is unreliable and biased and non backed-up information is dangerous in the current context. Wedonttoleratecorruption (talk) 21:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Indeed. It was based on an opinion piece. It has been removed now. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Insignia
File:Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades Flag.gif Non-free USGov-IEEPA sanctions
 * Would their logo be usable under the same logic as the above?
 * I was considering re-drawing it from news photos of patches, but maybe that's redundant?
 * Irtapil (talk) 21:13, 3 January 2024 (UTC)