Talk:Lisa Nowak/Archive 3

Disagreement on editing the article to inlcude Nowak's attorney and the city he practices law in
I am attempting to edit the article in order to add the name of the attorney for Nowak who was successful through his efforts and preparation for an insanity defense in getting Nowak a plea deal to a lesser charge and only having to spend 1 day in jail. His name is Donald Lykkebak. I am also attempting to add Orlando as the location of Donald Lykkabak. I am in disagreement with an editor/administrator on the issue and he suggested I start this topic and see what other editors thought so we could resolve this matter and either edit the article or leave it as is. Lykkebak was notable before the Nowak case and I have strong evidence to support the assertion that his notability warrants his own biographic wikipedia page. He had previously received national media attention in the case of Ed Humphies. A young man who had mental health issues and was wrongfully accused and made the prime suspect in the Gainesville Ripper serial killings in the early 90's. This information has so far escaped its own page on wikipedia imo due to the fact that the media firestorm from that case was in the early 90s. Were a situation as compelling as that to arise today it surely would have made its way to the pages of Wikipedia. Wikepedia was not made until a decade after the case. Lykkebak has represented other high profile clients, the most notable being Lisa Nowak. I bring up Lykkabecks notability because it strengthens the case that he should be mentioned in the nowak bio article. His notability is certainly not the only reason I have for attempting to add him to the article. His importance to the story of Lisa Nowaks life is the main reason. As her attorney he was the most crucial player other than herself as the saga of her notorious case evolved. Over half the article on Lisa's life was dedicated to her notorious criminal case. bbb23 made the argument that "The attorney simply isn't important.". Here lies the crux of the disagreement I have with bbb23. I believe he is important enough to be on the page. Importance is something that cant be quantified with a number or magnitude scale with any precise degree. Therefore as a measuring stick as to what makes someone important enough to add as an attorney to a bio of a defendant I will buttress my argument with precedent from other wikipedia pages. I will show situations where the attorney was considered important enough for the editors to include in the article about the defendant. Obviously each situation is unique and other variables come into play, but after researching famous defendants as cataloged on wikipedia,I am convinced that wikipedia community practices are in line with including Lykkebak in Nowak's bio and to not do so would go against the grain of common practices across the community. exhibit A - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Caylee_Anthony "Lead counsel for the defense was Jose Baez, a Florida criminal defense attorney. Attorneys J. Cheney Mason, Dorothy Clay Sims, and Ann Finnell served as co-counsel" Although this was not a true bio page for Casey Anthony, the vast majority dealt with her legal case, much like the majority of Lisa Nowaks article was majorly dedicated to her legal case. Here the editors found all of the attorneys of the defendant important enough to include by name in the article.

exhibit B- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin "Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig were the first lawyers to represent George Zimmerman.[61][62] They withdrew from the case on April 10, 2012, because Zimmerman was no longer returning their calls. On April 11, 2012, it was announced that Zimmerman was represented by a new attorney, Mark M. O'Mara,[21] who is board-certified as a criminal trial specialist.[64] O'Mara pointed out that a small number of murder cases actually go to trial, with many cases resulting in a plea bargain. "We're not taking any possibilities off the table how this case gets resolved," he said. O'Mara described the intensely debated encounter between Martin and Zimmerman as resulting in "a deceased child," and also said, "Obviously, it was a horrible intersection of two young men's lives and it ended in tragedy."[65][66] George Zimmerman's defense team has set up a Twitter account, a Facebook page and a website with a defense fund registered with the Florida Division of Consumer Services. O'Mara stated on the website that "Using social media in a high-profile lawsuit is new, and relatively unprecedented, but that is only because social media itself is relatively new. We feel it would be irresponsible to ignore the robust online conversation, and we feel equally as strong about establishing a professional, responsible, and ethical approach to new media."

In this article Zimmerman and his criminal case dominate the content. Editors found his three attorneys important enough to mention by name and quoted O'Mara multiple times.

exhibit C -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Davis ---In this bio for Angela Davis her attorney in a criminal case against her was mentioned by name.

exhibit D - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph "Federal authorities charged him on October 14, 2003. Rudolph was defended by attorney Richard S. Jaffe." In this bio Eric's defense attorney was mentioned by name. Other than his case with Eric, Richard does not appear to be very notable after looking at a quick google search. Yet editors of this page felt it proper to include him.

exhibit E -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner In this bio editors found it appropriate to once again include Jared's defense attorney.

exhibit F - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr ---Another bio where the defense attorney was important enough to the editors to name

exhibit G - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Polk ---Defense attorney named

exhibit H - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson --- Attorney named

exhibit I - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winona_Ryder ---Her defense attorney was named

exhibit J - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush_Limbaugh ---Defense attorney named

exhibit K http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kennedy_Smith - defense attorney named

exhibit L http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Francis - defense attorney named and quoted

exhibit M http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helio_Castroneves - defense attorney named

exhibit N http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Brando - a defense attorney was named

exhibit O http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gotti_Jr. - Gotti's tax attorney and three of his criminal defense attorneys were mentioned by name

exhibit P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian His defense attorney was named and quoted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_and_Loeb This bio covered the lives of two men and mentioned the defense attorney of both men

These articles incontrovertibly show the wide acceptance of wikipedia editors in viewing defense attorneys as important enough to mention in the bios of people who have very high profile criminal cases brought against them.

Lisa's article does mention the names of her parents, husband, victim, an air force officer, a navy officer, two nasa staff members, and the former lover. I would assert that the name of her attorney would be more important than the name of every one of them except her husband, her victim, and her former lover. Only two people were quoted in the whole article, a nasa staffer who was named, and lisas attorney who was not named. If the man warrants quoting than surely his name warrants mentioning. It would be very easy to reference countless articles which would establish precedent that when peoples quotes are included in wikipedia articles that their names are also mentioned. For these reasons I logically conclude that his name can and should be in the article. The last edit I am attempting to make would be to specify the Attorneys location as Orlando. I believe this fits with the format of the article because Orlando was cited as the location of the airport, the city she was arrested in, the location of a judge who made a ruling, and the location of the arresting police. bbb23 made another argument that " An attorney is acting as an agent for his client. To some extent, he merges with the client. He generally has no independent noteworthiness with respect to the client's case. It is natural for Nowak's family and the people involved in her problems to be mentioned in the article." I would deduce that by saying "it is natural" that he meant natural to the practices and standards of the wikipedia community editors. I think I have more than proved that it is also natural to include the attorneys name in a situation such as this. BBB23 says that "to some extent, he merges with the client" and I would submit that the extent of merging was not of a magnitude sufficient to sway the minds of the editors involved in the articles referenced in the exhibits above. My intent is only to be logical in my reasoning and arguments and I appreciate bbb23s insight into the matter. I welcome any comments, counter arguments, or supporting arguments. I am new to this process so hopefully I have approached it in a manner acceptable to the community, but if I have not it is due to lack of experience, not lack of respect. Smoaktim (talk) 05:00, 25 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smoaktim (talk • contribs) 04:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * A few brief comments. Smoaktim has been wonderfully cooperative in this process. My view is that the attorney in Nowak's case is not sufficiently notable to make inclusion of his name noteworthy. Nor has he done anything special in the case that other attorneys would not have done - and that have been reported in secondary sources - to warrant inclusion. As for the list of other articles that Smoaktim has compiled (you got to give him credit for all this work), I looked at a few randomly. In some cases, the attorney is notable (we have an article on the attorney), e.g., Mark Geragos for Winona Ryder. In other cases, the attorney was quoted by a secondary source, and the quote was arguably important. To the extent there are articles like the Nowak article where a non-notable attorney is mentioned by name with no real justification, my only reply is WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Record sealed - should we alter this?
The record in her case was sealed: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-01-18/news/os-lisa-nowak-love-triangle-sealed-20120118_1_lisa-nowak-shipman-with-pepper-spray-shipman-and-oefelein

I have some sympathy for someone in that position, that once their case is over, if the record gets sealed because a court determined that that's in the interests of justice, they should be able to move on.

The judge's order isn't binding on wiki, but should we perhaps trim-out or tone-down the article a bit, maybe leave out some personal details, just out of respect for this?

The details may have been notable at the time, but this whole incident is barely remembered.

Does wikipedia have a policy on this?

I suggest paring it back to she was an astronaut; she had her mission; she was accused of stalking someone; she pleaded guilty to a lesser charge; she was discharged from the Navy; the record of her case has been sealed.

Djcheburashka (talk) 05:47, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Lisa Nowak. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070929105244/http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/orl-mnowak0207may02,0,2172150.story?coll=sfla-news-florida to http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/orl-mnowak0207may02,0,2172150.story?coll=sfla-news-florida

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 06:14, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Lisa Nowak. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071026011659/http://apnews.myway.com:80/article/20070919/D8ROJMJ00.html to http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070919/D8ROJMJ00.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150721111651/http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20090302/BREAKINGNEWS/90302013/1006/NEWS01 to http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20090302/BREAKINGNEWS/90302013/1006/NEWS01

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 21:20, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Lisa Nowak. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110606220213/http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20090402/NEWS02/904020331/1006/NEWS01 to http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20090402/NEWS02/904020331/1006/NEWS01
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100418065042/http://www.google.com:80/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gWQm10mFUVswAuT1qGmomy6HLkDAD9BSRAUO0 to http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gWQm10mFUVswAuT1qGmomy6HLkDAD9BSRAUO0

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 10:01, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just modified 4 external links on Lisa Nowak. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/ceb/2007/09/02/oped/mayette.q..tabada.matamata.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070610190305/http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/view/columns/3618016.html to http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/view/columns/3618016.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080105203944/http://www.wesh.com/news/14498841/detail.html to http://www.wesh.com/news/14498841/detail.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091112021659/http://www.click2houston.com/news/21570150/detail.html to http://www.click2houston.com/news/21570150/detail.html
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20120904134454/http://www.firstcoastnews.com/rss/article/196697/3/New-Former-Astronaut-Lisa-Nowak-wants-Record-Sealed to http://www.firstcoastnews.com/rss/article/196697/3/New-Former-Astronaut-Lisa-Nowak-wants-Record-Sealed

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External links modified
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I have just modified one external link on Lisa Nowak. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/orl-pdf-nowakaffidavit,0,1599643.acrobat?coll=orl-home-headlines
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070208053338/http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/orl-bk-nasaastronaut0507feb05,0,6104316.story?coll=orl-home-headlines to http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/orl-bk-nasaastronaut0507feb05,0,6104316.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

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External links modified
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I have just modified 2 external links on Lisa Nowak. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071031030225/http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-mastmain0707feb07,0,4924087.story to http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-mastmain0707feb07,0,4924087.story
 * Added tag to http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-lisa-nowak-hearing-090908,0,2006179.story
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081024094120/http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/orl-lisa-nowak-102108,0,4558714.story to http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/orl-lisa-nowak-102108,0,4558714.story

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Timeline Issues
I came to this page while looking up something totally different. I read through part of the article and noted timeline discrepancies.

According to the article she had an affair after she was divorced, but was separated after the kidnapping". The article also says that she received a medal after being discharged.

I think that someone with more knowledge and or interest in this subject should do a review of the dates.

Thank You — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bap1961 (talk • contribs) 07:20, 20 December 2019 (UTC)