Talk:List of Arsenal F.C. managers

Information to be verified
I've found out the following information on Arsenal Managers: I can't update the managers' records yet due to not knowing Elcoat's exact date of starting.--Goonerak (talk) 18:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thomas Mitchell resigned week commencing 20 February 1898 on 10 March 1898
 * I haven't found out who was caretaker manager yet.
 * Sunderland manager Bob Campbell applied for and was offered the job. He accepted the job on 18 March 1898 but changed his mind before taking up the post.
 * George Elcoat started sometime during the week commencing 11 April 1898.
 * There were three games played that week, it's not yet clear if he was in charge for any of these games.
 * George Elcoat resigned on 10 March 1899 week commencing 20 February 1899.
 * He was in charge for the game v Burton Swifts on 18 February 1899 but not for the game v Burslem Port Vale on 25 February 1899.
 * Vice-chairman Arthur Kennedy became caretaker secretary-manager for the remainder of the season.


 * Just checking... Re Mitchell - there was no Port Value match on 20 February 1898 - that was in 1899. Can you double check? The ones I have listed are Grimsby Town on the 12th (won 4-1) and Newton Heath on the 26th (lost 5-1).
 * Elcoat - would this mean the April 11 1898 match v. Burton Swifts be counted in his record? Or is this what you're not sure on? Qwghlm (talk) 00:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I've updated the notes above so that it makes sense.--Goonerak (talk) 17:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Why you correct me mattythewhite Erick Valentino Krisdianto (talk) 02:01, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Phil Kelso and George Morrell
One of the things that intrigued me was the fact that George Morrell started the day after Phil Kelso left. Even more so that this happened during the season. I've found out that Kelso offered his resignation to the board in December 1906 but withdrew it in January 1907. He had to give three month's notice as per his contract. My guess is that he offered his resignation once again in November 1907 and this was accepted. This gave the board 3 months to find a successor (i.e. Morrell) and they could give him a definite start date. According to a report in the Kentish Independent, Kelso was employed by the club until 15 February 1908 so there was an overlap with Morrell. However, Morrell was in control of the team from 10 February.Goonerak (talk) 19:07, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Arsenal's first manager
At the half-yearly general meeting of the club, it was proposed by Lieutenant Chase that the club should employ a manager. This means that Hollis was never the club's manager. By the time of the AGM in June 1897, Thomas Mitchell had been appointed secretary-manager and spoke at the AGM.Goonerak (talk) 19:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The North Eastern Daily Gazette reported on 13 March 1897 that "Mr T. B. Mitchell, for twelve years secretary of the Blackburn Rovers' Club has been appointed secretary and team manager of the Woolwich Arsenal Football Club, at a salary much larger than that he received at Blackburn. Mr Mitchell resigned the secretaryship of the Rovers because of difference of opinion with the committee on the training of the men."Goonerak (talk) 19:00, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

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External links modified
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Color
Please enlighten me - what about MOS:DTT requires this color scheme? At the very least it should be minimized, it's very distracting and overwhelms the table to make an ultimately minor distinction. I don't think we need italics either or to indicate caretakers who got the job permanently. Furthermore I think it's obviously much more helpful to simply write "caretaker" than to use a symbol. Lazer-kitty (talk) 19:09, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If you don't want to engage in this discussion then I'm just going to revert it back, but there's nothing I see in MOS:DTT that suggestions color in data tables is encouraged. If anything it's explicitly made clear that color presents accessibility problems if not accompanied by text or symbols. And again, I don't understand why the caretaker manager indicator is so important that it must entirely dominate the table. Lazer-kitty (talk) 13:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
 * , Just because I haven't replied quickly doesn't mean I don't want to offer feedback. I'm not on Wikipedia 24/7 and I haven't edited much this year. Essentially you are arguing WP:IDONTLIKEIT; it might seem excessive to have italics and colour, but it has been standard practice to include them in lists on Wikipedia. MOS:DTT does state that colour needs text and symbols, which are included. Because this has passed featured list assessment I'm wary to remove the symbols and colour scheme. If you have an issue with how the table is presented, I'd advise you to bring the discussion here → WT:FOOTY, because if we're going to get rid of italics and colour on one list, then you have to be consistent and changes must happen across the board. Lemonade51 (talk) 15:43, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It's fine if you're not here 24/7, but I'm not going to live my life by your schedule. If you have a problem with my edits you are free to discuss them as I have done here; don't just blindly revert them and then disappear for days.
 * Your original revert comment referenced MOS:DTT as if it requires we use colors. In fact, it requires symbols because colors are an inaccessible way of displaying information. This policy supports my changes.
 * I checked several other managerial lists before making these changes; none used colors. If you are concerned about consistency across lists then you agree with me.
 * I'm going to make the same changes again. If you dislike them, keep discussing here. Do not simply revert them. Lazer-kitty (talk) 14:37, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * List of Manchester United F.C. managers uses the exact same caretaker notation I have added here and it is also a featured list. Just FYI. Lazer-kitty (talk) 14:46, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * As I said, take it up with WT:FOOTY. If they agree with your stance then by all means I'm happy for the colours to be removed. Furthermore, that list you referenced was promoted years ago – criterion has considerably changed since then. List of Liverpool F.C. managers has a colour scheme, so does List of Norwich City F.C. managers. So you obviously didn't check that well. Lemonade51 (talk) 17:23, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not taking up anything with WP:FOOTY. This color scheme is not standard and not required by the wikiproject. You are lying and you will stop. Lazer-kitty (talk) 21:21, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Aston Villa F.C. managers
 * List of Sheffield United F.C. managers
 * List of Southampton F.C. managers
 * List of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. managers
 * List of Watford F.C. managers
 * List of West Ham United F.C. managers
 * List of Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C. managers
 * List of Everton F.C. managers
 * List of Leicester City F.C. managers
 * List of Manchester City F.C. managers
 * List of Newcastle United F.C. managers
 * List of Manchester United F.C. managers
 * List of Chelsea F.C. managers
 * 13 other manager lists, some of them FL, all without colors. There is no standard layout for these lists - both as evidenced by the lack of consistency between them, and by the nonexistent policy related to them on WP:FOOTY. Lazer-kitty (talk) 21:34, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Where did I state lists require colours? I said the criterion for getting lists up to featured standard have changed and MOS:DTT is more or less a prerequisite. You are right that there isn't a universal layout but for this particular one I happen to think colours were fine. If it was a problem it would've been flagged up during the FLC, wouldn't you think? But none of the editors seemed that miffed about it.

Essentially what you are trying to do is close down any sort of conversation which isn't what Wikipedia is about. I suggested you to go to WT:FOOTY, raise your concern there and get involved because what you are infering is part of a wider issue. Should List of European Cup and UEFA Champions League finals have a colour scheme for instance? You don't for whatever reason want to engage in a community discussion which tells me you think you know what's right. It could be that you are but you aren't willing for anyone to validate your opinion other than yourself. As I said if the wikiproject come to an agreement that the colour scheme is unnecessary than I'll listen. As it is I'm sorry but the list format stays how it was when it got promoted. If you got a problem with that, by all means, flag or report me but do not revert. Lemonade51 (talk) 01:02, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * There is no reason to discuss this among WP:FOOTY as there is no project standard for list layouts, and your repeated suggestion otherwise is a blatant lie. I included other list examples EXACTLY AS YOU DID to prove that 1. there is no WP:FOOTY standard 2. there are featured lists without colors 3. your suggestion that we need to be consistent among such lists actually supports my changes. And yet again you lie, lie, lie to get your way.
 * I am going to keep reverting because I'm not going to let your disruptive editing get in the way of me improving wikipedia. You are the problem here and you need to step aside. Lazer-kitty (talk) 13:26, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * And you need to stop spamming MOS:DTT at me because it DOES NOT suggest, in any way shape or form, that we must use colors in tables. Lazer-kitty (talk) 13:34, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * As an outsider who stumbled across this, may I suggest observing WP:BRD before we descend into a full scale edit war? Kosack (talk) 14:20, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * My mistake. Have opened a discussion on the Wikiproject, for your benefit as much as mine. And once more you seem unable to grasp the finer points to my argument. If one user thinks the list is fine without colour, and the other disagrees you find a solution. In this case the best cause of action is reaching out to the Wikiproject and getting another person's input. Lemonade51 (talk) 14:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC)