Talk:List of Ateneo de Manila University alumni

Recent changes
I've restored the list of people deleted by Hbent, for the reason that they are notable, particularly within the guidelines of WP:Stand-alone lists. Included in the list are national artists, public servants, and performing artists, all of whom have achieved some degree of renown in the Philippines and elsewhere. The recent changes go against a steady period of consensus and non-dispute. I will continue to restore their names if deletion is insisted without proof of non-notability. Rmcsamson (talk) 05:27, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know what isn't clear about "Selected lists of people should be selected for importance/notability in that category and should have Wikipedia articles (or the reasonable expectation of an article in the future)." If you think someone is sufficiently notable to be on the list here, write a wikipedia article about them, and then they can go back.  Otherwise, any reverting you do will be against policy. hbent (talk) 23:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Noted. Will begin writing the articles. By the way, if individuals belong to a common group, such as a band, will the band article suffice, or will each member need an article for himself? And by the way, there are several other lists like this one, I suggest you get cracking on those as well. Rmcsamson (talk) 06:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Talk
Should the Honoris Causa holders be separated into another table? Circa 1900 16:18, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter. They're still technically alumni.Rmcsamson 17:05, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, how about moving this to List of Ateneo de Manila University people/List of Ateneo de Manila University alumni as seen at Category:Lists of people by university in the United States? Circa 1900 06:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea. But that means we'll have to come up with another list of Ateneo de Manila University people (faculty, etc.).Rmcsamson 15:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I second that, same page, second table for the Honoris Causa. Ateneo is more about the culture of the school...growing up there affects your philosophy, which is the main point of listing alumni. ADMU 86. Maccess 14:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I beg to disagree, technically if you did not graduate or get a diploma from the school, you should not be considered part of its alumni.....you can make a separate page or category for those who attended but did not graduate but NEVER claim that they are alumni....
 * The wikipedia article on alumnus will help. -- Howard  the   Duck  11:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

by wikipedia standards, you may say so but that is an expanded definition, technically it degrades the definition since it degrades the value of the diploma earned by completing the necessary school requirements that certifies that you have indeed passed the standards of said school....unless Ateneo does not believe this....then okay I rest my case....


 * Well in any case, this is Wikipedia, so we use definitions by Wikipedia. Also, the article title says "people" not alumni, so perhaps even professors, the cooks at the canteen, even the security guards can be included here. -- Howard  the   Duck  11:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

i suggest that you reformat this page to categorize the people in the list and give priority to those who did graduate, then those who got honorary degrees, then lastly those who merely attended....


 * The prioritization is irrelevant. All of the people in the list are considered alumni. Rmcsamson 17:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The Ateneo Alumni Association defines "alumnus" as anyone who has attended any of the units (Grade School, High School, College/Loyola Schools & Professional Schools) for at least two years.


 * I think this is also expressed in the university by-laws. Rmcsamson 17:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The article says that Meliton B. Salazar Jr. got a DBA from the Ateneo. I'm pretty sure AGSB doesn't offer a DBA.

124.106.132.242 16:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The user, Rmcsamson, keeps deleting the entry about Joseph Estrada as the first Philippine President convicted of Plunder. Is he trying to edit history? Does he not want others to know the truth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.248.77 (talk • contribs) 02:46, 19 October 2007

Estrada was convicted of Plunder. It is not a matter of "opinion". It's a fact that he was convicted of Plunder.


 * Whether or not Joseph Estrada is "known as" the "first Philippine President convicted of plunder" is a matter of opinion. He IS known for being a popular movie actor and for becoming President. How that is likewise relevant to his listing as an alumnus of a school (strangely applied only particularly to THIS list by an anonymous user) has not been justified. Rmcsamson 04:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Rmcsamson again tried to delete the entry about Erap's Plunder conviction. It's a fact that Erap is known as the President convicted of plunder on September 12, 2007. Rmcsamson doesn't want others to know that Erap is the first president convicted of Plunder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.248.77 (talk) 20:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Estrada was convicted of Plunder. That's a fact. Can you name another Philippine president convicted of Plunder? Why should there be a need to "justify" something that's a statement of fact? Who should be the judge, you? (Rmcsamson?)


 * The issue here is whether or not the comment made about Joseph Estrada is appropriate given the overall context of the article. What the anonymous user has failed to justify is how such a comment fits within the rest of the article. Since Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, the comment has no place in this article. It is already covered and discussed in the article/page about Joseph Estrada, where it is actually relevant and appropriate.Rmcsamson 20:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

First, Rmcsamson said that Erap as the "First President convicted of Plunder" is a matter of "opinion", now he's saying that it has "no place in this article". The fact is that Erap has been convicted and is KNOWN AS the first president convicted of Plunder. Rmcsamson is only trying to hide this fact.


 * The anonymous user has failed to address the issue of the propriety of the comment made vis-a-vis the context of the rest of the article, seeing as how it is directly addressed in the Joseph Estrada article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. The anonymous user's failure to ensure that this edit has been made to all other articles related to Joseph Estrada listed as an alumnus of an institution belies the anonymous user's bias and lack of discrimination. Rmcsamson 04:19, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Stating the fact is not "vandalism". Rmcsamson is resorting to ad hominem attacks against the user to justify his desire to hide Erap's Plunder conviction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.248.77 (talk) 04:58, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The anonymous user continues to fail to justify including the comment within the context of the rest of the article. The claim of resorting to personal attacks incriminates the anonymous user. Rmcsamson 10:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Rmcsamson continues to ignore the fact that Erap is known as the President convicted of Plunder on September 12, 2007, which is within the context of the article under the known as caterogy. In order to justify his desire to hide this fact, Rmcsamson used the words "bias and lack of discrimination" against the user. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.248.77 (talk) 12:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The anonymous user has continuously failed to address the issue of the propriety of the comment made vis-a-vis the context of the rest of the article, seeing as how it is directly addressed in the Joseph Estrada article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. The anonymous user's failure to ensure that this edit has been made to all other articles related to Joseph Estrada listed as an alumnus of an institution belies the anonymous user's bias and lack of discrimination. Rmcsamson 14:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

User Rmcsamson has repeatedly attempted to hide the fact that Erap has been convicted of Plunder. This fact is directly related to the "known as" category. Rmcsamson, an ateneo alumnus, is obviously attempting to sanitize the "known as" information by removing anything he sees as a negative even though it's the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.248.77 (talk) 14:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The anonymous user has continuously failed to address the issue of the propriety of the comment made vis-a-vis the context of the rest of the article, seeing as how it is directly addressed in the Joseph Estrada article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. The anonymous user's failure to ensure that this edit has been made to all other articles related to Joseph Estrada listed as an alumnus of an institution, limiting its efforts to this particular article and this particular article alone, belies the anonymous user's malice, bias, and lack of discrimination. Rmcsamson 14:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

User Rmcsamson has added the word "malice" in his attack against this user. It does not make sense that the user should edit other articles first in order for others to know the fact that Joseph Estrada has been convicted of Plunder and is directly related to the "known as" category of the article. Facts are independent of personality; whether the person is this user or Rmcsamson. Rmcsamson is attempting to make this a personal issue.


 * The anonymous user has continuously failed to address the issue of the propriety of the comment made vis-a-vis the context of the rest of the article, seeing as how it is directly addressed in the Joseph Estrada article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. The anonymous user's failure to ensure that this edit has been made to all other articles related to Joseph Estrada listed as an alumnus of an institution, limiting its efforts to this particular article and this particular article alone, belies the anonymous user's malice, bias, and lack of discrimination. Rmcsamson 14:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

User Rmcsamson has added the word "malice" in his attack against this user. It does not make sense that the user should edit other articles first in order for others to know the fact that Joseph Estrada has been convicted of Plunder and is directly related to the "known as" category of the article. Facts are independent of personality; whether the person is this user or Rmcsamson. Rmcsamson is attempting to make this a personal issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.248.77 (talk) 15:12, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * : The anonymous user has continuously failed to address the issue of the propriety of the comment made vis-a-vis the context of the rest of the article, seeing as how it is directly addressed in the Joseph Estrada article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. The anonymous user's failure to ensure that this edit has been made to all other articles related to Joseph Estrada listed as an alumnus of an institution, limiting its efforts to this particular article and this particular article alone, belies the anonymous user's malice, bias, and lack of discrimination. This is merely underscored by its indiscriminate resorting to personal attacks when confronted with the issue. The issue, as has been pointed out earlier, has already been defined for discussion. Rmcsamson 14:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've blocked the anonymous user for going over the 3 revert rule, however I would advise that you should avoid using terms such as "malice". Addhoc 15:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Will keep that in mind. Thanks. Rmcsamson 15:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, Rmcsamson is ignoring that the fact regarding Joseph Estrada's Plunder conviction is directly related to the "known as" category of this article. Despite this information, he still claims that the factual information of Estrada's Plunder conviction "does not ddress the issue of the propriety of the comment made vis-a-vis the context of the rest of the article, seeing as how it is directly addressed in the Joseph Estrada article".


 * : : The anonymous user has continuously failed to address the issue of the propriety of the comment made vis-a-vis the context of the rest of the article, seeing as how it is directly addressed in the Joseph Estrada article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. The anonymous user's has not ensured that this edit has been made to all other articles related to Joseph Estrada listed as an alumnus of an institution, and instead chose to limit its efforts to this particular article and this particular article alone The issue, as has been pointed out earlier, has already been defined for discussion. Rmcsamson 15:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The anonymous user's IP address has shifted, so I've protected the article. Addhoc 15:38, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Please address the fact that this user is not posting anything untrue. The fact that Joseph Estrada is known as the President convicted of Plunder is mentioned in the Wikipedia article Trial of Joseph Estrada. This article has a "known as" category, and Joseph Estrada is known for his Plunder conviction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.247.70 (talk) 15:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Factual accuracy has never been the issue. The issue has been relevance or propriety in the context of the rest of the article. And again, while Joseph Estrada has been convicted of plunder, whether or not he is "known as" such is a matter of opinion, and assuming that it can be considered such, this still is not responsive to the earlier query regarding relevance. Hence, the clarification of the table categories. This also does not explain why the anonymous user has limited its conduct to this particular article. Rmcsamson 15:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Rmcsamson removed the entry referring to Joseph Estrada's inclusion in the List of Ateneo de Manila University people in the Joseph Estrada article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.247.70 (talk) 15:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's irrelevant in that article's lead. Rmcsamson 15:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Joseph Estrada's inclusion in the List of ateneo de manila university people has been moved to the "Early life and career" section, right before the reference about his dropping out of college. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.247.70 (talk) 16:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Rmcsamson removed the reference to Estrada's inclusion in the List of Ateneo de Manila University people from the Joseph Estrada article. He claims that the information is redundant despite the fact that not all ateneo alumni are on the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.247.70 (talk) 16:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course not all alumni are in the list. This article used to be called a list of "notable alumni," but has since been changed for NPOV. Rmcsamson 16:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Now, RmcSamson is saying that the posting the fact that Estrada is on the List of Ateneo de Manila University people is "vandalism". (see: Joseph Estrada article) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.247.70 (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This is irrelevant to THIS article. Rmcsamson 16:34, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

This is releveant since this shows the fact that Rmcsamson is attempting to hide the connection between Estrada's Plunder conviction and his inclusion in the List of Ateneo de Manila University people.


 * If so, discuss the connection in the appropriate article, explaining why it is not redundant.Rmcsamson 16:38, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The user has explained in the appropriate article, but Rmcsamson keeps deleting the entry by either claiming "redundancy" or "vandalism". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.247.70 (talk) 16:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The "explanation" does not illustrate the connection mentioned. Rmcsamson 16:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Rmcsamson says:

"The preceding sentences are quoted for the anonymous user's convenience: "Joseph Estrada attended the Ateneo de Manila for his elementary education, graduating in 1951. He went on to attend high school at the same institution, but was expelled during his second year of for non-academic reasons." The information in these sentences is the same information related to Joseph Estrada in the article the anonymous user insists, without basis, on linking as a sentence in this paragraph. This is redundant.Rmcsamson 16:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)"

The issue is the fact that Estrada is included in the notable people list as stated in List of Ateneo de Manila University people, not the fact that both articles talk about his elementary education and expulsion.


 * The anonymous user has failed to address the issue of redundancy. Rmcsamson 16:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Rmcsamson refuses to understand that the issue is Estrada's inclusion in the "notable people" list, and not "redundancy" or "vandalism" as he claims.


 * The anonymous user has failed to address the issue of redundancy, or to draw the connection which it claims exists. It instead insists on vandalism and resorting to personal attacks. Rmcsamson 16:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Rmscamson has implicitly acknowledged that Joseph Estrada is "known as" the President convicted of Plunder, but has now changed the category heading to Positions held / Career / Achievement. In a previous statement, Rmcsamson said that "Whether or not Joseph Estrada is 'known as' the 'first Philippine President convicted of plunder' is a matter of opinion." In a succeeding statement, Rmcsamson said that "Factual accuracy has never been the issue." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.2.247.70 (talk) 19:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The anonymous user has failed to address any of the issues raised: redundancy, vandalism. It has likewise failed to draw any connection which it claims exists. The anonymous user has continuously failed to address the issue of the propriety of the comment made vis-a-vis the context of the rest of the article, seeing as how it is directly addressed in the Joseph Estrada article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. The anonymous user's has not ensured that this edit has been made to all other articles related to Joseph Estrada listed as an alumnus of an institution, and instead chose to limit its efforts to this particular article and this particular article alone. Instead of addressing these issues in a manner consistent with Wikipedia policy, the anonymous user has simply resorted to vandalism and personal attacks. Rmcsamson 06:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

One good way to find out if it really is appropriate is for looking for other articles: for example, it's well known Richard Nixon is the only U.S. president to resign. Does Whittier College and Duke University School of Law mention that? No. -- Howard  the   Duck  14:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposing rename
I propose renaming (moving) this to List of Ateneo de Manila University alumni. What do you think? People is a bit of an odd word in an article title, I think. User: (talk • contribs • count) 11:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "People" is broader than just calling the people in this list "alumni," because not everybody in the list is a graduate. Other lists for other universities' people go by a similar title. Rmcsamson (talk) 12:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

re: List of ADMU people
i think Dingdong Dantes is also an alumni of ADMU (Interdisciplinary Studies and Communication Arts major) as shown in his article..why is he not on the list or is it really complete? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leighmarian (talk • contribs) 19:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

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