Talk:List of Atlantic Coast Conference football champions

1983
Changing 1983 champions from Maryland to Clemson. Clemson had a better conference record (7-0) than the Terps (5-2), and the Tigers even beat them during the season (Source: College Football Reference). Additionally, Clemson had a better overall record: 9-1-1 compared with 8-4. Also, the 1983 NCAA Division I-A football season article states Clemson as the ACC champs.

I can't find concrete proof, but I see no reason why Maryland would have been given the championship over Clemson (this was before an ACC championship game). My guess is just a mistake in typing it into the table with so many alternating Clemson/Maryland entries, so I'm gonna go ahead and change it unless there's any objections or citations to the contrary. Thanks. Strikehold (talk) 11:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Gwguffey: Sorry, I didn't see your changes, before I edited the page. I reverted it after I saw your work. The source you cite says Clemson was ineligble for ACC championship... Anyone have any idea why? Also, the 1983 NCAA Division I-A football season article probably needs to be revised, as it claims Clemson were '83 ACC champions. Thanks for clearing that up, Gw. Strikehold (talk) 21:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Here we go, according to a Google cache of a Tiger Times editorial (http://www.thetigernews.com/news/2004/10/22/Sports/83.Maryland.Game.Was.A.Crucial.Win-1991538.shtml) it was unnamed 'recruiting violations in 1982' that cost them an 83 bowl game and additional punishment from the ACC:
 * "However, recruiting violations led the NCAA to put Clemson on probation. The penalties prevented Clemson from having any televised games (a penalty which the NCAA today is reluctant to give) and prevented the Tigers from participating in a post-season bowl game. While these restrictions were acceptable for the NCAA, anti-Clemson ACC schools banded together and tacked on an extra year to further punish the Tigers. It is no secret that many ACC schools disliked Clemson. The textile college with a military history contrasted with the North Carolina schools and Virginia, who thought of themselves as the pinnacle of American education (that is, wannabe Ivy Leaguers) and hated the success of Clemson football..."
 * Heh... Strikehold (talk) 22:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

the '83 & '84 Clemson eligibility notes
1)I feel the '83 note borders on having issues with WP:NPOV. Here is its current form:"Clemson was ineligible for conference title. Although, they won all seven ACC match-ups, including against Maryland, these wins do not officially count toward the conference numbers. Officially, Maryland finished with a perfect conference record (5-0)"

How about something along these lines? "As Clemson was ineligible for conference title, their wins did not officially count toward the conference numbers. Hence, Maryland finished with a perfect conference record (5-0)"

I feel it's important to note that there is an oddity here, but it needs to read in a more neutral manner.

2) After mulling it over, I think that the case could be made that the '84 note (both mine and User:Strikehold's) do not belong there at all as the topic of this list is the champions, not who would have come in 2nd, eligible or not. Should year's note be removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gwguffey (talk • contribs) 03:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Gwguffey, Ref note 1: I can see where you're coming from about this bordering on NPOV. Your phrasing does sound more neutral, except it's main problem is it doesn't convey that Clemson would have won the ACC in 1983 had it not been for their ineligibility. For 1983, I would favor something along the lines of...


 * "Clemson finished undefeated in the ACC, but was ineligible for the 1983 conference title. Therefore the championship was awarded to Maryland, with only one ACC loss, which was against Clemson and therefore not counted against its record."


 * I realize that's a little ungainly, but that's about as best I can get it including all the relavent information in it.


 * Ref note 2: As for 1984, I agree this is not an article about runners-up, but in this instance it is important to either: (1) Have the note regarding Clemson's ineligibility accompanied by a mention that it did not affect the ACC championship in the end (whereas it did in 1983). That is to say, they wouldn't have won anyway, even if they were eligible. Maryland had a better ACC (5-0 vs. 5-2) and overall (9-3 vs. 7-4) record, and in fact beat Clemson quite handily (41-23) that year. Or (2) remove the notation about Clemson entirely, because their ineligibility did not affect the championship outcome at all. My recommendation for this year would be to remove the Clemson note altogether.
 * Strikehold (talk) 04:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Good points, Strikehold. Here are my thoughts:


 * Ref note 1: Ah, my disagreement is with the phrase "with only one ACC loss". While Maryland did lose to Clemson, it was not an ACC loss because of the ineligibility.  The ACC media guide shows that Clemson played 6 ACC opponents in '83, but no ACC games. Hence their record was 0-0 in the conference. So, Maryland did not lose an an ACC game despite losing to an ACC opponent.  How about:


 * "Clemson finished undefeated against ACC opponents, but was ineligible for the 1983 conference title. Therefore, the championship was awarded to Maryland, whose loss to Clemson did not count against its conference record."


 * Ref note 2: Agreed on removing entire note on '84. Done.
 * -Gwguffey (talk) 06:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Gwguffey, think we've got it now. I agree with you and like your phrasing for the notation. I'll go ahead and put it in. Strikehold (talk) 07:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The graph of members and years joined appears as if Virginia was a charter member. They were admitted several months after the league was created. WBF — Preceding unsigned comment added by BillFloyd (talk • contribs) 17:35, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

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