Talk:List of Atlas Shrugged characters

NPOV
This article seems to have serious NPOV issues. Statements like "Dagny personifies the typical struggle within many capitalists: when to stop trying to change the socialist policies that impinge on capitalist freedoms" really don't belong in any Wikipedia article.

If these statements--and there are more than just the one I cite--are meant to reflect Rand's point of view, or some character's point of view, or what some Wikipedian believes was a thesis of Rand's in her composition of the book, that needs to be made explicit or the article will have POV problems.

Kinnan
Frank Kinnan, the union boss, is not mentioned in this list. Ill add a paragraph on him if that ok.

Groups names
I propose we place the "Looters", "Moochers", and "Strikers" sections at the top of the page and group the characters by their affiliation rather than randomly.


 * I think this sounds easier than it really is. I think one of the things that the author tried desperately to do, IMHO, was show that some who started in one group ended up in another (I think Cherryl and Tony, AKA "Wet Nurse", are good examples here.)  Also, the reader often doesn't know which group a character is in when they are introduced, and only through story development do we later realize where they really belong.  (Galt, Francisco and Ragnar come to mind as examples here, to varying degrees), so, at what point in the storyline would this article label them? Mkoistinen (talk) 21:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The part in Ragnar's section, "although 'skjold' means shield, not gold," does not have a diaeresis for the "o". I know that his name has a diaeresis, but don't know whether this particular word does. Any speakers of that language? Philip 2004-03-15

Bravo!
Bravo! Yeay for consolidating stubs! :) Martin

Brakeman
The Brakeman is not John Galt. For one, John Galt learned who Dagny Taggart was at a different setting, which he relates to her later. For another, in part III she meets the brakeman again, and speaks to him about the song he was whistling. Avi 22:23 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Though The Brakeman certainly isn't, I was under the (perhaps faulty) impression that the bum who speaks to Eddie Willers in the opening scene was John Galt. Also, perhaps the characters should be put in order of their last name instead of first? It took me a moment to realize it was in any order at all. D prime 03:18, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Suggest 18 possible wiki links for Characters in Atlas Shrugged.
An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Characters in Atlas Shrugged article: Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
 * Can link ten thousand: ...d that there should be a law limiting the sales of books to ten thousand copies. He is a member of the Looters. Balph Eubank app... (link to section)
 * Can link wake up: ... overall meaninglessness of her life. She regrets having to wake up every morning because she has to face another empty day. Sh... (link to section)
 * Can link Dime store: ...of Atlas Shrugged|sections]] 112 and 113. ==Cheryl Brooks== Dime store shopgirl who marries James Taggart after a chance encounter... (link to section)
 * Can link John Galt: ...Taggart after a chance encounter in her store the night the John Galt Line was deemed his greatest success.... (link to section)
 * Can link main character: ...ng end at the hands of Project X. ==Dagny Taggart== The main character in Atlas Shrugged (also the name of her namesake ''Mrs. Nat... (link to section)
 * Can link moral code: ...wrong and what the alternative might be. He is trapped by a moral code that makes him a willing victim, and rather than challenge ... (link to section)
 * Can link the common man: ... love with Dagny. Willers is generally assumed to represent the common man : someone who does not possess the promethian creative abili... (link to section)
 * Can link stock market: ... he began working at a copper foundry, and investing in the stock market . By the time he was twenty he had made enough to purchase t... (link to section)
 * Can link sexual desire: ...ate Rearden's virtues, and this appreciation evolves into a sexual desire . Rearden is torn by a contradiction because he accepts the ... (link to section)
 * Can link moral philosophy: ...her in almost every endeavor. As the novel progresses, the moral philosophy of the Looters is revealed: it is a code of nihilism. T... (link to section)
 * Can link feeling this: ...indulgence is a sign of moral weakness. She is incapable of feeling this kind of desire, which she believes testifies to her moral s... (link to section)
 * Can link court order: ... who mysteriously disappears in protest after he is given a court order to loan money to an incompetent loan applicant. Midas Mulli... (link to section)
 * Can link next men: ...ependent on, and with remarkable consistency, those are the next men to mysteriously disappear. Mystery Worker will turn out to ... (link to section)
 * Can link opera house: ..., but this time it was received to the greatest ovation the opera house had ever heard. It appears his critics felt he had paid his... (link to section)
 * Can link Patrick Henry: ...section]] 152. ==Dr. Robert Stadler== A former professor at Patrick Henry University, mentor to Francisco d'Anconia, ''John Galt'... (link to section)
 * Can link cocktail parties: ...The Metaphysical Contradictions of the Universe, and at cocktail parties . Dr. Pritchett appears in sec... ([[Characters_in_Atlas_Shrugged#Dr. Simon Pritchett|link to section)
 * Can link the President of the United States: ... The "Head of the State," which essentially means that he's the President of the United States, though he's never referred to as such. One of the Looters,... (link to section)
 * Can link public relations: ...uished look. He knows politics, however, and is a master of public relations and back-room deals. ... (link to section)

Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to &mdash; LinkBot 11:24, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I removed reference to apparently inccorect etymology claim that "mooch" might have come from the character named "Wesley Mouch." According to the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, 2000 the word Mooch comes from the Middle English word "mowchen." --Bchampion 11:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Merge?
I can't for the life of me imagine why it's worth noting every character who appeared in the book. Why aren't the major characters are part of the main article? Lucidish 23:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It think is is worth noting every character in the book. Atlas Shrugged is one of the longest books ever written. There are many characters in the book. Noting every character could help a reader place the significance of and give background to the character. As for merging, I don't see the need to distuingish between major and minor characters in this reference list. I would dispute any intention to merge this article with the main article of Atlas Shrugged.davidzuccaro 07:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, let's try that out and see how it goes. I'll change the merge proposal. Lucidish 01:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Other page has been redirected here so I'm getting rid of the merge tag. Lucidish 02:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Deletion Nomination
Was this article really nominated for deletion? The link at the top of the page ponts to a discussion about whether or not to delete "Things in atlas shrugged". Could I please be given a link to see the discussion?davidzuccaro 09:41, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know why, so I removed it Lucidish 20:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Transwiki proposal
I recommend that this page be transwiki'd to the Wikibooks section on Atlas Shrugged. This level of detail is far deeper than is normally appropriate in an encyclopedia article but would be very appropriate in Wikibooks. We can still provide cross-wiki links to aid readers who do want to dive into this level of detail. Rossami (talk) 12:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't wikibooks a collection of "free" books? This article is an encyclopedic reference article about the characters in Atlas Shrugged. davidzuccaro 09:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Stadler/Einstein
The article compares Stadler and Project X to Einstein and the bomb. First, what did Einstein have to do with the bomb? Second, did Rand even oppose the bomb? And third, this is speculation without a citation.


 * While we're speculating, Oppenheimer is a much more likely candidate than Einstein for Stadler's image.


 * I suspect Rand did oppose the bomb. If you read Capitalism.org, it says that although guns are fine, and are used for self-defense, nuclear-weapons can never be used for simple self-defense, and are therefore not so fine. Capitalism.org is a strictly Objectivist site. ~Allixpeeke (I'm not signed in right now)


 * In answer to the question regarding Einstein's involvement with the atomic bomb: Einstein and Leo Szilard wrote to President Roosevelt in 1939 opining that an atomic bomb of power sufficient to destroy a port was feasible in the immediate future. Einstein's reputation convinced Roosevelt to pursue uranium research and eventually order the Manhattan Project to develop the bomb. See Einstein-Szilard letter.


 * I do not know if Einstein, Oppenheimer, or someone else was the inspiration for Stadler. Pirate Dan 23:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Nikola Tesla was the basis for many charactors. The death ray was definetly based on work Tesla was conducting on at the time the book was written. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.224.144.112 (talk) 03:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No, Tesla wasn't working on a death ray at the time the book was written. Tesla died in 1943; Atlas Shrugged was published in 1957.  Pirate Dan (talk) 19:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Real-life references to John Galt
Anyone else think the trivia section crosses the line? (Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information) Dylan Lake (t · c · e) 07:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Stadler / Oppenheimer
"Rand left relatively few unpublished projects in any state of detail. Nothing became of a projected movie script for Hal Wallis which was to have told the story of the making of the atomic bomb, but editor Harriman argues plausibly that the extensive interviews she conducted with leading nuclear physicists left their mark on Atlas Shrugged: The sense of camaraderie among brilliant scientist-neighbors in rural Los Alamos, New Mexico, fondly recollected by many participants, helped suggest the idea of Galt's Gulch, while her interviews with J. Robert Oppenheimer led her to develop the character of Robert Stadler, the good-scientist-gone-bad."

http://www.reason.com/news/show/30499.html — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.237.34.67 (talk) 14:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

The origin of Cuffy Meigs?
Might Cuffy Meigs be based off of Henry Meiggs? Very loosely, but I just noticed a bit of similarity and thought I'd mention it.

Ragnar Danneskjöld
Is his name at all a reference to Ragnar Redbeard of "Might is Right" fame? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_is_Right

Gertrude is not Rearden's mother's name
Gertrude is not Rearden's mother's name; Gertrude is the name of the new cook in the Rearden household. Go read Section 241. It's the fifth paragraph. Rearden's mother's name is never given, period. I'll fix it, if there are no objections? JamesQMurphy (talk) 01:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Fixed! JamesQMurphy (talk) 01:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment on articles for individual television episodes and characters
A request for comments has been started that could affect the inclusion or exclusion of episode and character, as well as other fiction articles. Please visit the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(fiction). Ikip (talk) 11:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Hammond
Lawrence Hammond isn't mentioned in this entry. I am not capable of doing it, so I hope someone who is will. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.235.31.94 (talk) 22:54, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. --RL0919 (talk) 17:20, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

John Galt Merger
A merge tag on the separate John Galt article that links to this page for discussion, but the editor that placed it didn't come here to put in a justification (perhaps because there is already discussion going on at Talk:John Galt (novelist) that includes this issue). Since the tag points here, I'm creating the section to discuss it. I oppose a merger, for reasons explained on the other talk page. --RL0919 (talk) 17:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I support a merger not only of this article, but of the other Ayn Rand character articles discussed in the Ayn Rand cross talk. See Ollie Garkey (talk) 04:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose on the grounds that the fictional character is notable beyond the pages of the book that spawned him, and that the character is rich enough to have its own article. --Karbinski (talk) 12:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose; there's so much about the Galt character in that article, none of which ought to be cut, that its inclusion here would make this article too long. I do think the treatment in this article should be expanded from a single line to a 5- or 6-sentence paragraph; but a full merge is inappropriate. TJRC (talk) 20:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the template from the John Galt article. --Karbinski (talk) 21:53, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

OR purge and moving forward.
I've cut about 8K of comparisons, interpretations, and speculations that go beyond what a reader would know from the book itself, all of it unsourced and most likely original research. I left in some interpretive material about a few major characters that I think could be sourced to academic works on the book, although most of it isn't cited currently. The article is obviously a magnet passers-by to put in their two cents about whatever character interests them.

My next thought is that a number of the characters on the main list probably belong on the "minor" list ("The unnamed newsstand owner" isn't minor?). My idea is to use an outside source, probably Gladstein's The New Ayn Rand Companion, to identify the major characters (thus giving the distinction a source beyond WP editorial opinion). That would allow more focus on providing sourced interpretive material about characters for whom such material is likely to exist. The rest would go to the "minor" list, with no interpretations and less extensive plot information than many of them have currently. Any objections or alternative ideas? --RL0919 (talk) 18:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * We could just delete all the truly minor ones. TallNapoleon (talk) 18:46, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm putting together a classification list based on the following: 1) whether the character is mentioned as a major or minor character by Gladstein or a commonly-used study guide (e.g., CliffsNotes, SparkNotes), or 2) if the character is the subject of an academic essay (e.g., in the Younkins and Mayhew anthologies). I need to double-check my work, but I believe there will be a dozen or so "major" characters (listed as major or made subject of an essay) and another 60 or so "minor" characters (listed as minor, not subject of an essay). Since there are 41 "major" and 54 "minor" characters in the current article, about 25 characters would get the axe, assuming we are going to have a list that is verifiable from secondary sources. --RL0919 (talk) 23:57, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I started implementing the new system, and it turns out that there are a number of characters listed in the secondary sources that weren't in the article. Which means that the list was never comprehensive, in spite of including totally trivial characters like unnamed waiters and bartenders. I added a few of the "missing" characters and will put the rest in soon. --RL0919 (talk) 02:45, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. The characters are now organized into "Major" and "Secondary" (I avoided "minor" so as not to invite re-insertion of trivial characters) based on explicit criteria that involve secondary sources.

Italics and section references
Currently, there are two inconsistently implemented "features" to the list, and I'm not sure that either are necessary or helpful: My inclination is to cut out all the italics and the section references, but perhaps others see value in them. If they are to be kept, they really ought to be implemented more consistently. Thoughts? --RL0919 (talk) 20:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Sometimes in the entry about a given character, the names of other characters on the list will be in italics, presumably to let the reader know that this is another character from the list. Since most names mentioned in an entry will be names of other characters, this seems pointless to me.
 * 2) Some entries (typically older ones) have references to the "sections" a character appears in, with the word 'section' wikilinked to a soft redirect that eventually leads to a Wikibooks page on the structure of the novel. This strikes me as problematic for a couple of reasons. First, it is difficult to create and maintain due to the novel's length and the number of different characters. Second, it seems to be original research. Even the section numbering is a wiki-invention; it isn't used in the novel itself or in secondary sources.
 * OK, lacking any reasons to keep it, I removed the character name italics. If anyone else reads this talk page, I really would like to get some feedback on the "section" links. I don't want to arbitrarily axe a potentially useful feature, but it seems problematic to me for the reasons mentioned above. --RL0919 (talk) 15:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Two things. First, whatever the history, those section numbers do nothing to help navigate the wikibooks entry.  Secondly, indexing wikibooks shouldn't be a feature of an encyclopedic article.  The second one is a weak reason to remove them, but I believe the first is strong and sufficient. --Karbinski (talk) 16:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, they're all gone now. --RL0919 (talk) 23:15, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Major Changes
I'm planning on editing this article and implementing some major changes. Right now, I'm thinking about incorporating these ideas:
 * Reorganize information and edit list entries to better reflect emphasis given to them in the text. For example, the entry for Ragnar Danneskjold is the longest out of all the major characters, yet he is given (with the exception of Hugh Akston) the least textual space out of the listed major characters. To accommodate this, I plan on giving lengthier treatment to the most important characters (Dagny, Rearden, and Francisco), and shrinking Danneskjold.

Any thoughts or further suggestions are welcome. Brandonk2009 (talk) 06:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * For the secondary characters, I plan on removing inconsequential figures who really serve as background figures rather than characters. I could list numerous examples.
 * Divide the secondary characters into various divisions. I haven't finalized any division yet, but I'm definitely thinking about setting aside the secondary characters who reside in Galt's Gulch. My reason for this is simple, it emphasizes how Rand viewed this professions and roles as important in our society and crucial for a rational society. Another possible division, which would contrast with the secondary characters in Galt's Gulch, would be the characters comprising the cultural elite (primarily Lillian's crowd). Each division would have some information (reference and cited) about their significance in their novel.
 * Finally, I want to tweak some of the criteria used to determine major-secondary-minor characters as stated in the reference section. These changes will not be major however.


 * Alphabetizing by last name and balancing the amount of space given to characters both seem appropriate and needed. For the inclusion/classification criteria, the main concern I have is that it be something based on secondary sources. Otherwise we have editors doing original research to determine how characters should be included/classified, which leads either to subjective decisions about what gets included or to a sprawling, all-inclusive list with unnamed "Bartender" and "Waiter" characters listed alongside more significant characters. --RL0919 (talk) 13:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with you concern on the use of secondary characters. I agree to use them. My problem with how this list currently stands is that we have the "major" characters, and then we have "secondary" characters. Secondary to whom? Most of the problematic characters are sourced to Gladsteins "A compendium of Characters" in The New Ayn Rand Companion. What I propose is to cut Gladstein's book as a source of characters. I defend that action based on the fact that Gladstein was not classifying by the role the characters play in Atlas Shrugged (i.e. major vs. secondary), but rather classifying the characters based on their moral status within the corpus of Rand's fiction. The point being that since this list is classifying by a different standard, the usefulness of Gladstein's work is diminished. I'm currently in the process of checking which characters would actually be cut if you pull Gladstein as a source completely. Nothing changes in the Major character category, several are cut out of the secondary (the most unfortunate being the Starnes siblings). This was going to be my final action on this article, because this could be contentious (and I haven't quite made up my mind). When the list reaches that stage, I'm open for a vote. By then, the changes that I want and care about will have been taken care of, and if other editors feel that the useless, unnecessary characters should remain, I'll let them make that decision. [Note: I noticed that I removed some important secondary characters mentioned in Cliffnotes, I plan on reinserting them soon.] Brandon K 06:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brandonk2009 (talk • contribs)


 * Gladstein was the only secondary source to mention a number of the lesser characters, so that would definitely thin the list. When I first moved from the old, unsourced list to new approach of requiring a mention in secondary sources, there were even more characters listed than there are now. I was trying to be conservative about how many characters got deleted, so I went with a relatively inclusive set of criteria. If the consensus is to be more restrictive, I've got no problem with that. As to the section naming, I'm open to changing it. For example, we could go with Major/Minor, Primary/Secondary, Major/Other, etc. --RL0919 (talk) 20:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Danneskjöld: Pirate or Privateer?
An editor has repeatedly changed the description of Ragnar Danneskjöld from "pirate" to "privateer", offering edit summary arguments such as, "This character is identified in the story and by the author as a privateer. To call him a pirate demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of the meaning and purpose of the novel." This is simply false. A search of the e-book text produces zero instances of "privateer", while the character is called a pirate in the book at least nine times. Rand also refers to him as a pirate in other works. More importantly, the character is called a pirate in independent reliable sources such as Gladstein's Ayn Rand, Heller's Ayn Rand and the World She Made, and essays from Feminist Interpretations of Ayn Rand, Essays on Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, and Atlas Shrugged: A Philosophical and Literary Companion. Since I do not want to be edit warring with the IP, I would ask for other editors to weigh in. --RL0919 (talk) 04:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Would someone please comment? The IP will not stop. --RL0919 (talk) 06:16, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * "74.201.26.150" is wrong, totally; it is the term "privateer" which appears nowhere in AS, whereas "pirate" does in many locations describing Danneskjold, even when protagonists are musing to themselves; e.g.: Centennial Edition: "But the odd, glowing warmth in his mind, like the feel of a distant handshake, was the thought that in a secret safe of his bedroom there lay a bar of solid gold, given to him by a gold-haired pirate...." Etc. Rand used "pirate" deliberately; and the last instance occurs during Galt's speech:"'When you failed to give recognition to man's mind and attempted to rule human beings by force—those who submitted had no mind to surrender; those who had, were men who don't submit. Thus the man of productive genius assumed in your world the disguise of a playboy and became a destroyer of wealth, choosing to annihilate his fortune rather than surrender it to guns. Thus the thinker, the man of reason, assumed in your world the role of a pirate, to defend his values by force against your force, rather than submit to the rule of brutality."(Note that a "privateer" is distinguished from a "pirate" by having a legal "letter of marque" from a government to raid enemy shipping -- Danneskjold neither had nor sought such disingenuous frills.)--Froglich (talk) 08:22, 14 May 2013 (UTC)


 * You are correct. A pirate is a criminal. I privateer is essentially a mercenary licensed by a government to attack the enemy. If the old days of "Pirates of the Caribbean" if you were a priate and captured, you would be executed. If you were a privateer and captured by the enemy, you were treated as a prisoner of war. Eric Cable  |  Talk  12:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The other Mike Mulligan
Midas Mulligan's real name is "Michael", which would be "Mike" for short.

Almost two decades before Ayn Rand published Atlas Shrugged, and seven years before she even started writing notes for it, another woman author wrote a children's book Mike Mulligan and His Steam Shovel by Virginia Lee Burton. In this book, a steam-shovel operator, Mike Mulligan, pits his obsolescent technology against the more modern diesel power shovels. He, and the steam shovel, wind up trapped in the hole that is supposed to be the foundation for the new town hall. However, a child's suggestion leads them to use the steam shovel's boiler as the central heating unit for the new building, and Mike takes a new job as the janitor to tend to it.

Is there some hidden agendum in this selection of names? Josh-Levin@ieee.org (talk) 22:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Richard Halley
Added Sergei Rachmaninoff as source for character Richard Halley. Rachmaninoff had a bad first presentation to audience, was a Russian living in USA, took a couple of years to be recognized and his Piano Concertos were acclaimed as full of life. Rand loved his music and the 2nd Piano Concerto. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.113.197.44 (talk) 23:04, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

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