Talk:List of Band of Brothers episodes

asking for a third opinion
As anyone can see, Xeworlebi and myself are involved in an incredible stupid slow edit war. I'm not trying to wash myself off this, it's stupid of us both.

But: The edit I'm performing, debolding the series name, brings the article in line with the Manual of Style and with virtually all other episode lists.

That is my honest motivation to perform the edit: Because I firmly believe that is correct.

I can't tell what Xeworlebi's motivation for reverting this is, but (again: apart from the fact that we are both wrong in that it's an edit war and we both just keep reverting), his reverts are also incorrect, by bringing the article out of line with the Manual of Style, as well as with other episode lists.

The applicable section of the MoS is at MOS:BOLDTITLE:
 * If the page title is descriptive it does not need to appear verbatim in the main text, and even if it does it should not be in boldface.

The page title is "List of Band of Brothers episodes" and it would be mighty awkward to mindlessly bold the words in the title, along the lines of:
 * The following is a list of episodes of Band of Brothers, a ten-part television World War II miniseries based on the book of the same title written by historian and biographer Stephen Ambrose.

Some editors do that because they believe for some reason that each and every single article must have something bolded in the first sentence, which is simply not the case. Bolding the series name is incorrect because it is very simply not the page title, and also because it's a logically formatted as a wikilink (back to the series' own article). According to Manual of Style (linking):
 * Links should not be placed in the boldface reiteration of the title in the opening sentence of a lead.

Faced with the choice of either bolding the series name, which makes zero actual sense, or to format it as a wikilink, the choice is clear. We need that prominent link, and bolding makes absolutely no sense, quite to the contrary as the MoS explains.

I am posting here in the hope the Xeworlebi can be convinced by logic and reason, if not mindless persistence, that the content of his reverts is unequivocally plain wrong. Once more: I accept and don't contest that he and me both are involved in what must be one of the stupidest edit wars of all time. The reason I haven't tried to engage him at his talk page or the article talk at a much earlier point is that I have already come across Xeworlebi once, and in that instance, too, he kept restoring an unquivocally wrong version, and didn't respond at all to my attempts at contacting and reasonably discussing with him.

I'm trying WP:3 although an "opinion" is not actually what is needed here, more an additional voice to help Xeworlebi understand that the series name should simply not be in boldface, as is the case. --195.14.221.73 (talk) 15:48, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you have a user account? Is there any specific reason why you're not logged in? (Just a question)  Chzz  ► 16:04, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't have an account because I don't want one. --195.14.221.73 (talk) 16:13, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's your prerogative; no problem. Personally, I don't know quite why some people don't like having an account - it does save an awful lot of trouble, plus it protects your anonymity better. And means you can create user subpages, but mostly 'coz it makes it one hell of a lot easier to know who we're talking to (rather than IP's changing all the time). However...I won't keep harping on about it; it's absolutely your choice. Thanks for answering.  Chzz  ► 16:21, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Looking at the recent page history of this article, I get the feeling that having e.g. a watchlist would be a really bad idea for a guy like me. Having a dynamic IP address helps me detach and forget (in most cases, anyway :) --195.14.221.73 (talk) 16:28, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Hm, well, watchlists can be cheerfully ignored. I don't use 'em, at all. But one thing it does do - having an account - is, it avoids a lot of hassle. Rightly or wrongly (mostly wrongly), IP editors are seen as 'trouble', so you're at an immediate disadvantage. It may seem highly unfair, but the simple fact is, the majority of vandalism, and other kinds of disruption, is done by IPs, and the vast vast majority of "experienced" users have an account. I'm not saying it is right to have such preconceptions - whether right or wrong, it's simply true.  Chzz  ► 16:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I took a look at some featured lists, seeking inspiration. I decided that a) it didn't need the bold, and b) it didn't need the "the following is" stuff - because...well, it's superfluous.
 * So, I've changed it to just...

Band of Brothers, a ten-part television World War II miniseries...
 * Let's see what happens with that.  Chzz  ► 16:11, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Let's see. (I was just in the middle of editing this section because I read WP:DR and it suggests trying WP:EAR before WP:3. But I'm happy to try it this way now that you've already responded.) --195.14.221.73 (talk) 16:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure; I'll be watching what happens; I'll try and help resolve it. Are you happy with my amended version?  Chzz  ► 16:16, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Perfectly happy, yes. --195.14.221.73 (talk) 16:19, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, let's see what happens then; maybe we can avoid having to get it protected, etc. -I've already mentioned this on User talk:Xeworlebi. If necessary, we'll get some more opinions here to build a consensus.
 * Note, if it does get changed again, I'm not going to change it back or anything - and I suggest everyone else does the same - ie, live with the "wrong version" while we sort it out. (See wrong version!).
 * By the way...it's not the most stupid edit-war, by a long stretch; just browse WP:LAMEST.
 * But of course, the most important thing is to remember it's "just a wiki" - doesn't actually matter. That, and, to stay calm and drink lots of tea :-) But then, I would say that, 'coz I'm English.
 * Incidentally, I have no idea what Band of Brothers even is; I think I've heard the name, but never seen it or anything. So at least I should be neutral. Hope I can help.  Chzz  ► 16:30, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Looking through many of the featured episode lists' history, there's one trend I see, which is that most of the bold removal was done by a mysterious IP hopping user, many by persistent removal, until someone gave up. The subject of an article is bolded, even what you quote says that simple descriptions may be bolded. "Use as few links as possible before", since linking is vital here it would make no sense not to. Bolding the subject in the lead makes perfect sense, if it doesn't you might want to start now and slow remove all the bolding everywhere, and you won't be halfway when we're all dead. Also, please do not make up stuff like saying I did not respond to you calling me and idiot last time.  X  eworlebi (talk) 17:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Xeworlebi, thanks for responding. OK, so, we have a difference of opinion; let's stick to discussing the content of the article though, not other users. I'll try to get more opinions here - that should help.  Chzz  ► 17:56, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Request for opinions
We have some disagreement over the bolding of the first part of this article.

Myself, and the IP user above, think it should be;

Band of Brothers, a ten-part television World War II miniseries...

Xeworlebi disagrees - and, presumably (correct this if I'm wrong) thinks it should be, as it was previously,

The following is a list of episodes of Band of Brothers, a ten-part television World War II miniseries...

In order to reach a consensus, I'd appreciate any opinions, below. Many thanks,  Chzz  ► 17:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC) I've asked for input on WT:MOS  and WT:TV   Chzz  ►  17:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Support Chzz's version (subject debolded, but linked, and at front of article).  "The following is a list" is verbose, makes an infinite actor the subject of the sentence vice the specific "Band of Brothers", moves the bolding far from the eye, and gives you a trivial insight (hey, here is a list) vice getting into the actual subject of the content itself.  TCO (talk) 18:14, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Note, I do think that bolding can make sense in some lists, where the list IS the article (for instance State reptiles). Of course, here this is a list that is essentially a daughter of an article on the subject itself. TCO  18:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say neither. You want to make it clear as soon as you can what the subject is. "The following is a list of episodes" is unnecessarily wordy and doesn't introduce what Band of Brothers is easily. The first example, meanwhile, waxes on about what the series was adapted from, who exec produced it, et cetera--which is irrelevant for this part. The number of episodes and when they aired are far more crucial for the article. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 19:07, 4 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Support Chzz's version, linked and not bolded.
 * In WP:LEAD
 * WP:BEGINNING says, "If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence.$[footnote with example]$ However, [...]. Similarly, [...]" The However bit which I elided there contains the title of an example article which could just as easily be the title of the list article being discussed here. I'll restate that below with that substitution. Also, I take the Similarly bit which I elided as clarifying the "However" bit rather than the first sentence, so I'll also restate that below:
 * However, if the article title is merely descriptive—such as List of Band of Brothers episodes—the title does not need to appear verbatim in the main text. Where an article title is of the type "List of ...", a clearer and more informative introduction to the list is better than verbatim repetition of the title.
 * BEGINNING also says, "If the page is a list, do not introduce the list as 'This is a list of X' or 'This list of Xs...'." I take those examples as being similar enough to "The following is a list of episodes of Band of Brothers" to apply the do not.
 * WP:BOLDTITLE says, in part, Links : Use as few links as possible before and in the bolded title. Wtmitchell (talk • contribs) 03:07, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Support Chzz's version — My opinion comes from experience, not any guideline I've actually seen, but the bolding would seem to be only if the title of the article were repeated. For example, "This is a list of Band of Brothers episodes". Since neither Chzz/IP's nor Xeworlebi's options do this, then there shouldn't be any bolding at all. – Kerαu noςco pia ◁ gala xies 02:32, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You're correct as far as most cases go (although there are exceptions to that as well, along the lines of this). Let me add though that repeating the page title verbatim just so that it can be bolded as some people do is also a bad idea. --213.196.219.178 (talk) 12:54, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Very good point : ) – Kerαu noςco pia ◁ gala xies 22:15, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

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