Talk:List of Brave Witches episodes

BD/DVD delays
This was confirmed on ANN recently. Should we mention it in the article itself? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:10, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Episode summaries
During my recent copyedit run-throughs on the list, I've noticed there were some what I thought to be run-on sentences in the episode summaries and I have removed them. Although the summaries added in by Wonchop are very good, I think we should improve upon them by further copyediting, such as replacing redundant words like "in order to" and "all of" in addition to removing any potential run-on sentences, as well as editing for grammar, syntax and consistency. I also think that semicolons can be used when connecting two similar ideas (it all depends on who's using them). In some cases for the sentence structure, fragments or shortened sentences can be allowable through the use of poetic license as well. As a reminder, when we add summaries, the recommended word count is 100 to 200 words per WP:MOSTV. If you have any other thoughts or suggestions on how to improve them, please post here. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:25, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * This all sounds good to me, as long as the summaries still reiterate the most salient plot points. One other thing I'd do is try to make the summaries accessible by wikilinking terms that readers might not know. (you could also wikilink character names to a character list). Opencooper (talk) 23:34, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Size-wise they look fine. All under 200 words. AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 21:39, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

I tend to go by the belief that fewer sentences are better than shorter ones, as those tend to read a lot like children's story books. There's also times where trying to correct these summaries end up giving completely wrong information (for example, Hikari going to join the Brave Witches in episode 1 is incorrect). Basically, they need to be read like you can say them in a human voice, and not, y'know, use "in the aftermath" fifty times. Wonchop (talk) 20:47, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I understand where you're coming from, but I'm also getting a little concerned about some of the wordings myself (i.e. identifying possible issues with potential run-on sentences, no puffery, and trimming down excessively formal phrases and words, e.g., due to the fact that for "because" and utilize for "use"; etc.). Given that I have been a copyeditor for 10 years, I often edit articles for prose tightening, grammar checking and keeping it in compliance with the 100-200 word limit. When I copyedit summaries, I make sure that I reiterate the most salient plot points (i.e. Hikari joining the Brave Witches after her sister gets seriously injured), correct downright wrong information, and remove superfluous/redundant words (like "this ends up exhausting", "manages to", "in order to" and "in the year"; "however" and "also" can be removed as well). However, in any case, summaries can be hard to read if all of the details in sentences are merged into one whole paragraph. Still, I thought such matters on wording issues may be resolved by consensus between other editors like us and other uninvolved users. Since the plot summary for the series is an overview of the series, WP:TVPLOT says to "avoid minutiae like dialogue, scene-by-scene breakdowns, individual jokes and technical detail," which we always try our best to follow. In the case of Brave Witches, the plot isn't really that deep that it needs an elaborate summary. As a sidenote, I've personally had disagreements with plot summary issues myself, especially in film and TV series articles.
 * If there are specific concerns with any further copyedits, we can make some suggestions here and incorporate them on the main page. If it's necessary, I think we should ask for assistance from other editors on the talk page of the main project to get some further ideas or request a copyedit from a third-party user at WP:GOCE rather than reverting each other again and leading to a potential edit war (which is forbidden) per the WP:BRD guidelines. In the meantime, I'll ask uninvolved third-party editors as well as on WT:TV for their input on the matter and see if we can come up with a compromise. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:10, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for bringing this discussion to my attention, but as someone who opposes the strict wording of WP:MOSTV when it comes to the word limit I am not sure what I can add here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:43, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I was asked to join this discussion but don't know what exactly the issue is - if you have specific things you want me to comment on, please reply with that (and ping me as I'm not watching this page).--IDVtalk 01:21, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

FL push?
Once the episodes have finished airing (which will probably be in January 2017 given that the DVDs/Blu-Rays are to be released in six volumes and I suspect that it will be two episodes each), we are going to be coming across some complications probably over the next couple of months, that need to be resolved before I take this list to FL along with List of Strike Witches episodes.

As part of the FL push, we should also make the theme music a separate paragraph as with some FLs such as List of One Piece episodes (season 5). We also need a separate paragraph to combine the broadcast, simulcast and possible English releases as well. Any thoughts or objections? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:48, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Lead paragraph
As mentioned above, the lead is all merged into a single paragraph and I would propose that the lead should be separated into at least two or three paragraphs. The music should be in a separate paragraph as well. If there are any objections, please let me know here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:18, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * There's no real reason for seperate paragraphs as everything can be summed up in 5-6 sentences at most (Article definition, plot summary, airdate and streaming, home video release, theme music). Articles are not required to strictly follow the examples of other lists (basically WP:OTHERSTUFF) and there's a lot of instances where multiple sentences can be easily summed up in just one (for example: "The series began airing in Japan on October 5, 2016 and is being simulcast by Crunchyroll.") Just like how the episode summaries are meant to be kept as brief as possible, the same should go for the rest of the article. Wonchop (talk) 22:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I know, Wonchop, and while I agree with most of your changes and ideas, I thought such matters on a possible FL would be discussed on the talk page. Also, I feel that music composers for any anime series and designers are also important. A good example of a lead section for an episode FL would be the Code Geass episode articles (they are FLs). Meanwhile, I already started a relevant discussion on lead paragraphs over at WT:ANIME. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:33, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


 * My two cents. When making episode lists I do this:
 * 1st paragraph: Adress what the studio who made the staff (requires source)+premise (unsourced)
 * 2:Where and when did it premiere? English licensing? (ref)
 * 3:Home media:DVD+Bluray? (ref)
 * 4: Music themes (does not need ref as far as I know)
 * After the episode list, I make a table of DVDs/Blu-ray. Hope this helps.Tintor2 (talk) 23:11, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm generally less about the whole FL thing and simply about making a clear and concise article. Just at a glance, one of the recent versions had three paragraphs all beginning with Brave Witches, which just looks bad. The main thing here is that this is a pretty small article currently only covering a one-cour series, so it doesn't really benefit from artificial expansion (ie. splitting a perfectly good sentence into two fragmented ones). Your format is probably better suited for lists covering multiple episodes (such as the Strike Witches one), where there are more broadcasting details and theme songs to warrant individual paragraphs. Wonchop (talk) 21:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * While I can respect Wonchop's points about how clear and concise the article should be and that it is a one-coir season, we may want to help follow the general formatting of how the lead should work as described by Tintor2 and I still intend to bring this article up to FL status once the series finishes its run. I had to split it up into two paragraphs to follow the general formatting. Also, I feel that some of the long sentences didn't make much sense. Anyway, or FL models, I would also recommend using List of Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion episodes and List of Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2 episodes (both are FLs) as models. As for the paragraphs in the lead section, the relevant Lead section guideline recommends that one or two paragraphs should be used for less than 15,000 characters, two or three for 15,000–30,000 characters, and three or four paragraphs for more than 30,000 characters. Since the characters is 18,000, I think we should keep it between two or three paragraphs. Unless someone objects, I think we should take this matter about the paragraphs up to WT:MOS-ANIME. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I think the two paragraphs that exist right now look fine. It should definitely not be just one paragraph. ··· 日本穣 ·  投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 23:54, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Two paragraphs is fine. It's mainly the wording I'm having issues with, both in the heading and the summaries. There's a lot of instances where a sentence is split into two for no reason, making it come off more like a children's storybook than actual English, some of which actually change the intended meaning or make things less clear. Other times there's just way too much unneccessary detail that comes off as filler (do we really need to emphasis that Crunchyroll is an American country, or use "broadcasting" over "airing"?) Wonchop (talk) 15:22, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Regarding the sentence situation in the summaries, I've clearly explained my reasonings for copyediting the summaries in the episode summaries section. Basically, there's nothing wrong with copyediting the summaries, as long as they still reiterate the most important plot points. Also, "Broadcasting" and "airing" are the same thing but usually, I go with using the "broadcasting" terminology. As for the airdates, we usually go by what the general reference says (in this case, Tokyo MX's official website) and when the date is announced we should remove the TBA template as I usually do when the airdate is announced on the official website. I plan to take this list to peer review, and as I have said previously, I intend to take it to FL. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:11, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

I've started a proposal section for the lead section below so we can incorporate some ideas and suggestions in it. Please discuss there. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:59, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Proposal
Since the lead should be at least between two to three paragraphs, I'm listing the below proposal for the lead:
 * Brave Witches is an anime series produced as a spin-off of the Strike Witches mixed media franchise created by Humikane Shimada. Set during the Neuroi invasion in an alternate 1940s Europe, the series follows the adventures of the Fuso witch Hikari Karibuchi and the 502nd Joint Fighter Wing, also known as the titular Brave Witches. Traveling to Europe along with her sister Takami, Hikari joins the Brave Witches when her sister gets seriously injured in battle. The series was directed by Kazuhiro Takamura and written by the scriptwriting team Striker Unit with Seikou Nagaoka serving as music composer.
 * Brave Witches initially ran on Tokyo Metropolitan Television from October 5 through December 28, 2016 in Japan and is being released on Blu-ray and DVD in six compilations, each containing two episodes, by Kadokawa between February 24 and July 28, 2017, with a special edition volume being released on August 25, 2017. The series was streamed on Crunchyroll as it aired in Japan. Two pieces of theme music are used: an opening theme and an ending theme. The opening theme is lit. "Tomorrow's Wings" (アシタノツバサ) performed by Yoko Ishida and the ending theme is "Little Wing ~Spirit of Lindberg~" performed by the series' voice actresses as their characters.

The Nihongo3 template can be used for direct translations that are not in official English, such as theme songs. Also, Striker Unit is a team consisting of multiple screenwriters for the series, so that should be noted as well. The paragraphs regarding the broadcasting and DVD release dates would make more sense if they were easily merged together for the Japanese releases. Obviously, the Crunchyroll part might need to be split into a separate paragraph. As for the ending theme, we should note that the voice actresses are also credited as their characters. There will probably be major issues with the lead paragraphs if the series is to licensed for an English language home media release in North America, which will probably happen soon. If anyone else wants to add ideas or suggestions to it, please do so below and I will incorporate it in the article. Thanks. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:36, 21 December 2016 (UTC)


 * There's no need to split the Crunchyroll info, as its streaming pertains to the broadcasting. Also you shouldn't use past tense to refer to future events (ie. it hasn't finished airing yet.) Wonchop (talk) 20:41, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I was just planning to propose the lead it in advance when the series is finished, since we have only a week before it is over. Also, I think it's redundant to use years when mentioning release dates and broadcast dates. I thought that in some cases for the sentence structure, fragments or shortened sentences can be allowable through the use of poetic license as well depending on who is writing it. Thoughts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:46, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * They just look bad, though. There's a difference between "can" and "should". Wonchop (talk) 20:51, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I know, Wonchop, but I was only trying to get some ideas. When the events do happen (in this case, if the airdate is finished), then we must write it in past or present tense depending on the situation. For now, any statements on English-language releases in North America can be considered speculation per WP:CRYSTAL.
 * As for the current lead regarding the broadcast, I think it would make more sense if we use "premiered on [date] on [television network] in Japan" instead of "began airing in Japan on [television network] from [date]" until it finishes on December 28 (or 29th since it airs after midnight). Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:58, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Now that the series is over, I think it's definitely time to do some minor revamping of the lead and we'll work on it more when the series gets licensed in North America. I'm discussing this matter with AngusWOOF as well. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:51, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Timezones
Per WP:MOSANIME: "For shows that are broadcast on or after midnight in their country of origin, use the actual airdate instead of the advertised media date. For example, an episode advertised for April 2, 2015 at "24:30" or "深夜00:30" has an actual airdate of April 3, 2015 at 12:30am, so use "April 3, 2015". Add a footnote if the cited references cannot sufficiently explain the situation." According to Tokyo MX's official website, the show actually broadcasts at "25:35-26:05", which is basically 01:35-02:05 on Thursdays in Japan, so I think we should change the release dates over to the actual one per the MOS, which started on October 6, 2016 in that country. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:04, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

After a discussion with AngusWOOF, I've boldly made the change myself. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:39, 22 December 2016 (UTC)