Talk:List of Charvet customers

Removed from the page
The following customers did not fit the last reorganization of the page. They could possibly go back to the "artists" or the "notable clients" section, depending on future research. Interestingly, at this point, there is no place for tycoons, which is probably because there inclusion would be tautologic. Racconish (talk) 12:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC) Updated  Racconish  Tk  10:09, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Paul Anka
 * Mark Birley
 * Henry Clay Frick
 * Gaston Gallimard
 * Jean-Claude Gaudin
 * Maurice Girodias
 * Pierre Hermé
 * Vernon Jordan
 * Jack Lang
 * Maurice Lobre
 * Peter Mayle
 * François Pinault
 * Sumner Welles
 * Jann Wenner
 * If they are notable enough to have their wikipedia articles, then they are notable enough to be listed here. Honestly now.  These were important people, or they wouldn't meet the notable requirements to have their own articles.  Some business tycoons have created more change in the world than someone simply born into a royal family, or even those elected president. Dream Focus (talk) 08:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In this "notable" section, I have tried to gather all clients of Charvet which were not only notable enough to have a dedicated article on Wikipedia - a condition met also by the customers I have removed, at least temporarily, from the article-, but also that had such a notable interest in Charvet that it became, if not a defining characteristic, something that could not left out of their biography, a condition met by David Tang for example. In doing so, I was trying to compell with the issue raised in WP:Overcategorization. The facts some people were sourced as customers and they are notable does not necessarily imply their relationship with Charvet is, per se, notable. To be notable, it has to be, for example, something they talk about, they consider themselves a defining trait. This is where I encountered a difficulty: Gaudin and Hermé, for example, have explained themselves in the articles sourced they are loyal customers; Birkley's patronage of Charvet was mentioned in his obituary. To some extent, it means they meet the criterion. But, on the other hand, Charvet has many loyal customers and I think we need something special in the relationship with the brand, or we'll run into a banana problem, like the little girl who said 'I know how to spell banana, but I don't know where to stop". The fact remains that the Afd discussion ended with a "no consensus", which means the matter is still not resolved. I am open, pending comments here, to see how much of the present article can be merged back into the main one, and if this provides an adequate solution to the issues raised in the Afd. Or, if others have suggestions, I'm open to reworking this article. Until such clarification, I suggest not to rename it. Thanks, Racconish (talk) 09:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable sources
Writing a defamatory article about a person and then making it a reference for a Wikipedia article doesn't make it a valid reference. "El Regional de Piura" writes defamatory articles and shouldn't be used here. Odalcet (talk) 17:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The editor of this article is not the journalist from the quoted newspaper. This is not a case of self reference. The quoted newspaper is a reliable source by WP's standards. It is referenced in WP's article on the Piura Region. Your negative appreciation is itself defamatory, if not backed by a qualified secondary source. Beside, being a customer of Charvet has nothing infamous. Thanks in any case for discussing instead of blanking.Racconish  Tk 18:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem is not Charvet shirts. The problem is the reference. What do you think of this:?

QUOTE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia#Removal_of_false_information

The Seigenthaler incident demonstrated that the subject of a biographical article must sometimes fix blatant lies about his own life. In May 2005, a user edited the biographical article on John Seigenthaler Sr. so that it contained several false and defamatory statements.[73] The inaccurate claims went unnoticed between May and September 2005 when they were discovered by Victor S. Johnson, Jr., a friend of Seigenthaler. Wikipedia content is often mirrored at sites such as Answers.com, which means that incorrect information can be replicated alongside correct information through a number of web sources. Such information can develop a misleading air of authority because of its presence at such sites END OF QUOTE

How do you know "El Regional de Piura" is a reliable source? Do you understand Spanish? Have you lived in Venezuela? Do you know President Chavez? "El Regional de Piura" (or at least that article) cannot be used to lie about President Chavez (or about any person, for that matter). If all those lies where about you, would you have the same opinion? Thank you for your time...

Odalcet (talk) 22:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I do not think I have to prove a newspaper is an acceptable secondary source. As indicated here, the author of the incriminated article is a regular journalist in this newspaper and a lecturer at the National University of Piura. He is also the former director of the newspaper. All this qualifies the incriminated article as an acceptable secondary source. On the other side, you are not proving anything, just ... defamating. If it would be notable this newspaper in general and this journalist in particular are defamating, there should be a secondary source to corroborate it. Unless you present a valid reason, other than your original research or personal conviction, there is no reason to blank this section of the article. Also, I have to insist there is nothing defamatory in being a Charvet customer. Your example is therefore not appropiate. Finally, please refrain from passing judgement on other editors, such as implying the article in question is being used to lie. At this point, I shall revert your blanking and ask you to kindly bring acceptable reasons here instead of blanking again. Thank you. Racconish  Tk 23:06, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course you have to prove a lie is not a lie.

The source referencing Hugo Chavez is attacking the President of Venezuela. This is not a reliable source. This information is false. elregionalpiura.com is not a reliable source. According to alexa.com, *elregionalpiura.com* has rank 554,039 and traffic rank in Peru of 4,787. *aporrea.org* has rank 11,334 and traffic rank 68 in Venezuela. Statistics make aporrea.com a more reliable source.

If *elregionalpiura.com* says Chavez uses Charvet shirts and *aporrea.com* says Chavez does NOT use Charvet shirts, the truth, according to Alexa's rankinkg, is in aporrea.com article. Then the information in *elregionalpiura.com* is false and defamatory.

The article from elregionalpiura.com is defamatory, insulting and full of lies about President Chavez. All this "facts" cannot be found in aporrea.com, a web page from Venezuela with much better rank than elregionalpiura.com. So aporrea.com is a reliable source and elregionalpiura.com is not a reliable source. This false information ("Hugo Chavez is a client of Charvet") is being used in Venezuela to attack the President of Venezuela. According to Wikipedia rules, "biographies that are unsourced and negative in tone, where there is no neutral version to revert to, should be deleted per speedy deletion criterion G10"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons

Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care. In the laws of many countries, simply repeating the defamatory claims of another is illegal, and there are special protections for people who are not public figures. Any such potentially damaging information about a private person may be cited if and only if: (1) it is corroborated by multiple, highly reliable sources; (2) the allegations are relevant to the subject's notability and; (3) the Wikipedia article states that the sources make certain "allegations", with the Wikipedia article taking no position on their truth.

Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material

Remove any unsourced material to which an editor objects in good faith; or which is a conjectural interpretation of the source (see Wikipedia:No original research); or that relies upon a source which does not meet the standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability (though see self published sources, below).

The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Editors who find themselves in edit wars over potentially defamatory information about living persons should bring the matter to the Biographies of Living Persons noticeboard. Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked.

Attack pages, i.e., biographies that are unsourced and negative in tone, where there is no neutral version to revert to, should be deleted per speedy deletion criterion G10. Administrators may remove such pages at once. Non-administrators cannot delete pages, and should tag them db-attack.

Odalcet (talk) 06:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear Odalcet, What worries me in your reasoning is the sequence: "The source referencing Hugo Chavez is attacking the President of Venezuela. This is not a reliable source." In other words, it seems that for you the sheer fact this article criticizes Hugo Chavez qualifies it as an unreliable source. It is quite obvious in the contrary that the critical nature of a press article is not sufficient per se to establish it as untrue. Your second argument, the article statement on Charvet "cannot be found on aporrea.com [...] so aporrea.com is a reliable source and elregionalpiura.com is not", is also slightly biased: the absence of any mention of the shirtmaker in aporrea.com (I checked, nevertheless) does not predicate anything on the article by El Regional de Piura. If and only if aporrea.com would criticize the mention in El Regional would a reference to aporrea.com establish the untruthfulness of the article in El Regional. But the absence of any mention in aporrea.com just establishes that aporrea did not mention it. Thirdly, your last reasoning, that this information on Chavez is being "used in Venezuela to attack the President of Venezuela" also fails to demonstrate the untruthfulness of the article in El Regional: as already written in my previous answer, if El Regional is notably a dubious source, some qualified third party source should say it and if their statement is controversial, some qualified source should criticize it. Actually, I notice quite the opposite: El Regional is described in the Spanish Wikipedia as "the most important" regional digital newspaper, the information from El Regional is indirectly confirmed in this 3rd party source and I could not find any evidence of a controversy on the fact that Chavez wears Charvet shirts. Your reference to WP's policy is not appropriate as you cannot seriously pretend the reference you are not happy with is "unsourced". Please trust I am not stubborn and would yield to a valid reason, which you have failed so far to bring. In practical terms, I have replaced the simple reference by a note, stating that a certain article in the Peruvian press was followed by critics in Venezuela and allusions in the Venezuelan press. For the time being, I have used a quote from Diego Arria to illustrate the critics in Venezuela on the implications of his patronage of Charvet. It would be appreciated if you could help replace this primary source by a secondary source and/or add evidence of the existence of a controversy, not your opinion only. I am also asking for a third party's opinion to help resolve this dispute, adding a banner in this section. Finally, should my attempts to reach a consensus not meet your expectations, please note it is generally considered polite to exchange arguments instead of deleting, particularly in a context of ongoing vandalism of the page.  Cheers, Racconish  Tk 12:18, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your good will and quick response. I shall try to summarize the issue. This sub-article of Charvet Place Vendôme is a list of significant customers, particluarly heads of state. Entries in the list are all sourced. Basically, we are discussing here if it is appropriate or not to list Hugo Chavez as a customer of Charvet. I had initially included him in this list on the basis of an article published in a Peruvian digital newspaper, el regional de piura, stating in 2006 that Chavez "wears only" Charvet. This mention has been the object of a significant amount of vandalism and the article is currently semi protected. After blanking the section and having been asked to discuss here his reasons, Odalcet developped the following argumentation:
 * 1)"The source referencing Hugo Chavez [he means the media, el regional de piura] is attacking the President of Venezuela. This is not a reliable source."
 * 2)The mention of Chavez being a customer of Charvet "cannot be found on aporrea.com [a Venezuelan news portal described by the Spanish Wikipedia as defending the point of view of supporters of Chavez] so aporrea.com is a reliable source and elregionalpiura.com is not"
 * 3)The information is "being used in Venezuela to attack the President of Venezuela" and therefore qualifies for deletion as "unsourced and negative in tone".
 * To which I answered:
 * 1) El regional de piura is described in WP as "the most important" regional digital newspaper. The author of the article is the former director of this newspaper and a regular journalist. This, for me, qualifies the source as acceptable.
 * 2) I am not aware of any controversy of the fact that Chavez wears Charvet shirts. Quite the opposite: There has been allusions to it in a Venezuelan newspaper, Nueva Prensa.
 * 3) This uncontroversed fact has stirred critics, for example from Diego Arria, an opponent of Chavez. I have therefore replaced the sheer reference to the original Peruvian article by a sourced note stating this article had stirred critics and allusions in the Venezuelan press. I suggested Odalcet to help improve the sourcing of the note.
 * 4) I consider that listing Chavez as a customer of Charvet is not an attack on Chavez. He is far from being the sole head of the state in this list. No judgement is passed in the article on Chavez and it is in no way defamatory. If you will read the article, you will find another head of state, Charles Haughey, has been criticized for being a Charvet customer, the problem in his case being he was paying for them with public funds. In any case, there would have been no reason to refrain from putting him in the list: not only was he a customer of Charvet, but critics cristalysed around this patronage, to the extent he was nicknamed in the press "Charvet Charlie".
 * Again, I thank you for trying to help resolve our issue. Racconish  Tk 16:34, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: After careful consideration, I decided to remove the reference to the editorial in Nueva Prensa. The way it is worded, it can either relate to Chavez wearing Charvet shirts or to the socialist businessmen wearing them. Though I feel the ambiguity is deliberate, I think it is more appropriate to avoid such ambiguous statements here. This part of the sentence, the mention of allusions in the Venezuelan press, was not, in any case, the key point. Nevertheless, I would still appreciate if another editor could help better document this aspect. Racconish  Tk 20:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Here are some elements of proof.
 * Reputation for fact-checking and accuracy of El Regional de Piura. A Google search on "fuente:el regional de piura" (i.e. "source:el regional de piura") returns 8.300 hits, including encyclopedic publications such as this one or NGOs such as this one.
 * Editorial oversight of El Regional de Piura. This digital newspaper was started in 2002. It has a board of columnists with proven expertise, such as Eugenio D'Medina Lora, Rosa Venegas, editor of the weekly supplement of the Peruvian newspaper El Tiempo or Miguel Godos Curay, the author of the article (not an editorial) on Chavez.
 * Reliability and professionalism of Miguel Godos Curay. Before contributing to El Regional de Piura, Godos Curay had started in 1996 a newspaper in Sullana called La Primicia. He then launched La Nueva Primicia in 1998. He later has been the director of the local edition of Diario Correo, the 3rd newspaper in Peru, and is still writing in the national edition. Godos Curay is also the director of the Escuela de Comunicación de la Universidad Nacional de Piura, some of his suggestions to students for thesis here. He is considered here to be representative of a "new generation of [Peruvian] journalists". He was honored in 2009.
 * I would also like to add that the claim Chavez is a Charvet customer is not extraordinary: Brioni suits and Rolex watches are more expensive than Charvet shirts. There is also a primary source, clearly unacceptable but interesting, contemporary of the article. Racconish  Tk 22:42, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Dear Racconish: You say "it is generally considered polite to exchange arguments instead of deleting". You should write "I consider..." It's you who considers polite or impolite this citation about President Chavez. The problem is not President Chavez using or not using these shirts. The problem is El Regional de Piura. I wouldn't object if Charvet certifies about President Chavez using their shirts. I would end my objections after that certification and after the deletion of El Regional de Piura's reference.

In the same way you consider impolite a deletion in Wikipedia, I and the majority of habitants of this country, Venezuela, consider impolite your citation of El Regional de Piura. As I said before, the problem is not the shirts, the problem the impoliteness of that piece of trash (El Regional de Piura)

As you probably know, all Wikipedias (English, Spanish and all the others) suffer from certain serious problems. An example: Did you know that the Spanish Wikipedia is controlled by 80 bibliotecarians? ( http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bibliotecarios#Bibliotecarios_activos ) That means that each bibliotecarian is in charge of 6,598 articles. ( 556,670 articles / 80 bibliotecarians = 6,958). That's ridiculous. No one can do that kind of job!

That also means that certain Wikipedia articles are also garbage and cannot be used as a valid reference. There are hundreds (perhaps thousands) of pages in the World Wide Web discussing this kind of Wikipedia problems. Let's make the Wikipedia a better source of information.

My dear Racconish, you are not helping the Wikipedia using references like that Piura garbage. Get a certification of the shirt maker.

I'm not discussing if its appropriate to list Hugo Chavez as a customer of Charvet. The problem is that garbage of Piura.

You listed some elements of proof: Reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, editorial oversight, reliability and professionalism of M Godos Curay. The title of that garbage article is "La historia de un gorila encaramado".

I invite you to Venezuela. You will see for yourself that President Chavez is Homo Sapiens Sapiens, just like you and me (but not like M Godos Curay). President Chavez is not Gorilla Gorilla. If you cannot come to this beautiful country, you can take a look at CNN or any other "reliable source" and you will tha our President is a human being, just like you and me.

So, your elements of proof are completely useless. Have a nice day, dear Racconish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Odalcet (talk • contribs) 06:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear Odacet,


 * First of all, I must apologize for an inappropriate expression. I certainly should not have written "it is generally considered polite to exchange arguments instead of deleting". I did not mean to limit your - or anybody's - right to edit by imposing a condition of prior submission on the talk page. I rather meant that it seems to me that in a situation of editorial conflict, we should rather work together to find a consensus, which is why I have been trying to improve the reference to Chavez and asking for a third opinion. The mention "generally considered" was a reference to this.


 * Your general criticism of Wikipedia could be due to a misunderstanding: the Spanish Wikipedia calls bibliotecaros what is referred to here as administrators, not editors. The sheer fact we are discussing this here, with a 30, is a proof of the robust model of Wikipedia.


 * I would like to point out 2 reasons why your suggestion of asking a certification to Charvet is irrealistic:
 * As indicated in the article, Charvet declines to comment on its customers.
 * As suggested here, it is highly probable that Hugo Chavez does notshop himself abroad for his Charvet shirts but sends some other person. The retailer - is it Charvet in Paris or a another store, like Bergdorf Goodman in New York? - is probably not even aware who the final consumer is.


 * If I read you correctly, you could accept the elements of proof I provided, but find them "useless" because they are polluted by the insult of calling your president a gorilla. Hence your sentence: "I'm not discussing if its appropriate to list Hugo Chavez as a customer of Charvet. The problem is that garbage of Piura." Let me quote you the 1st words of Godos Curay's article: Caretas nicknamed him "Simon Gorilla".... He is actually making a reference to an article published in 2001 by the Peruvian magazine Caretas, titled "Chavez, the Simon Gorilla". I think this sourced reference is more a proof of thoroughness from the journalist than anything else.


 * What is not accurate is the Diego Arria's comment on the price of Charvet shirts: he multiplied it by 20! I have therefore corrected it in my note. I think the mention of his comment, with this word of caution is nevertheless useful in the article, as an example of Venezuelan polemics around Chavez' tastes. I could also have made a development on Time's assessment of Chavez beeing poorly dressed, Chavez' comments on Castro's elegance, but I tried to keep it short. Nevertheless, I think the sensitive issue here is not the original article by Godos Curay (after all, more costly patronages, to Brioni and Rolex, have been proven to be true), but what is said about its implications. Can you accept my last edition about the reactions in Venezuela?


 * Besides Godos Curay's article, pictures like this one convince me Chavez wears Charvet shirts, which is not unusual for a head of state. It seems to me appropriate to mention him in this list. I personally do not find it shocking that a head of state dresses according to his function. I think the fact this patronage is a matter of polemics also fits precisely the purpose of this article. Therefore, I think it would be benefitial to the encyclopedia to try together to find a middle ground between my editor's interest and you legitimate national pride. Could we please try to collaborate on this?


 * Cheers, Racconish  Tk 14:22, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

As I now see it, Racconish has moved much closer towards proving that El Regional is a reliable source, though I still do not think that s/he is quite there yet, while Odalcet still has not offered any substantial proof that El Regional is unreliable. Just because a source is critical of a subject, or even insults or makes fun of the subject, doesn't prove that the source is inaccurate in the facts that it asserts. Understand that I am not contending that El Regional is reliable — it may well be that El Regional has no better reputation for accuracy and fact–checking than the Weekly World News — or is not reliable, I frankly don't know anything about it except what I've learned while working on this case. I'm merely saying that Racconish is, through offering sources, much closer to proving that El Regional is reliable than Odalcet is to proving that it is not reliable, through calling it names and complaining about it being critical of Chavez without offering any sources showing that it is unreliable. (The burden of proof is, of course, still on Racconish to prove reliability, not on Odalcet to disprove it, but if Racconish accomplishes that — and he's very close, in my opinion, to doing so — then the burden shifts to Odalcet to prove that it's not reliable.) Rather than any additional reverts, I suggest that this be taken to either the reliable sources noticeboard, WP:RSN, or the biographies of living persons noticeboard, WP:BLPN (but not both, either at the same time or sequentially, which would be improper for this reason). —  T RANSPORTER M AN  ( TALK ) 15:42, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Let me please try to convince you completely.
 * Though I agree on the need to appreciate the general reliability of the media, El Regional de Piura, I think there are other important aspects. I explained above why I considered the author, Godos Curay as a reliable journalist. Another angle to consider is the content of the information. For example, was the information on Chavez written by Godos Curay and published by El Regional de Piura in May 2006 a "scoop" or was this information already available, totally or partially? It is my claim that most of Godos Curay's assertions on Chavez' dressing style were available from other reliable sources before he published his article.
 * The book referred to by TransporterMan, written by Alberto Barrera Tyska, a Venezuelan journalist writing in El Nacional, and Cristina Marcano, a noted biographer of Chavez, was published in 2004. Portions were available on the internet before 2006:
 * On the web site of their Venezuelan publisher, in March 2005, a passage described Chavez as "wearing designer clothes and using Cartier watches".
 * Another extract published in January 2006 here said: "[After 2003 Chavez] started to order all his suits from the Italian company Brioni, who sent them directly from New York. Roland Carreño, Venezuelan fashion expert, commented on Chavez's clothing during a television appearance by the President, in mid-2004: he wore a Lanvin suit at $ 3,000, a Pancaldi tie at $ 300 and a Cartier watch."
 * In 2005, Olga Wornat, described here as "one of Latin America's best known investigative journalists", published a book called Cronicas Malditas with a chapter on Chavez where she wrote: "Roland Carreño, the star reporter of the events section of the newspaper El Nacional, Caracas, said: "As far as dressing, the commander keeps, as elsewhere, a double standard ... When visiting the townships, he wears sport clothes, which make him look more like a Cuban boxing coach than a head of state. But when he is away from the mob, he becomes a man of gabardine suits at $ 1,000, shirts of Italian cotton or marcella, with a monogram embroidered on the cuff or on the side, cufflinks of silver, Mont Blanc pens, watches by Cartier, his favorites, or Bulgari".
 * In her radio program Trincheras published on the internet in March 2005, the Venezuelan journalist Eleonora Bruzual said Chavez found "the shirts from Place Vendôme irresistible". (Note: Charvet's full name is Charvet Place Vendôme. As indicated here the company is closely associated with the Place Vendôme in Paris and it is the only remaining clothing company on Place Vendôme.)
 * Finally, in a book published in 2006 in Venezuela, Michael Rowan, a journalist living in Caracas, referred to Chavez "speaking of his Rolex watches on television only 2 monthes after having taken the presidency".
 * At this point, I hope you can share my opinion that Godos Curay's sentences challenged by Odalcet ("He uses only Italian Brioni suits and shirts from Charvet, the French brand favored by Charles de Gaulle. He has a collection of watches by Cartier, Rolex and Bulgari".) were supported by available and reliable sources. Consequently, I hope to have demonstrated El Regional de Piura is a sufficiently reliable media and Godos Curay a sufficiently reliable journalist for the specific reference in the article.
 * Cheers, <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 10:06, 30 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Note. Aporrea.org, suggested by Odalcet as a "more reliable source", is nevertheless considered here as "Venezuelan-government-controlled" and therefore not reliable.


 * <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 15:31, 30 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Let me begin by repeating what I said at the beginning: "The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached." Having given that reminder, let me say that my opinion is that Racconish has, by a slim margin, met his burden to prove that El Regional is reliable. Consensus must still, however, be obtained between Racconish and Odalcet on that point, either by agreement or by surrender, or by reference to one of the noticeboards I mentioned above. Regards,  T RANSPORTER M AN  ( TALK ) 21:27, 31 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. In any case, your third opinion was very helpful. My additionnal research of sources on the subject has led me to the conclusion it would be more appropriate to:
 * Put the issue of Chavez' Charvet shirt in relationship with the symbolic value given to his red shirts.
 * Quote in the article not only Godos Curay but other relevant and complementary sources, in particular Bruzual, Wornat and Barreta.
 * Quote a less polemic source than Arria to present critics in Venezuela.
 * I rewrite the note accordingly, as neutrally as possible, hoping this redaction will contribute to a consensus.


 * Cheers, <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 22:26, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not only about national pride. It's about using reliable sources and it's about Wikipedia strong and weak points. If you delete your reference about El Regional de Piura, I'll stop deleting that lie. It will be YOUR opinion and not El Regional de Piura's opinion.

If you post a reference to President Chavez, you will have to state clearly that is based on El Regional de Piura, an unreliable source that is calling names on President Chavez. It's not me who is calling names. A little reference number is not enough. As you can see in El Noticiero Digital, that lie is being used for attacking President Chavez. Your are responsible for that.

Here in Venezuela, the references to Charvet shirts have been extracted from your posting in Wikipedia because El Regional de Piura is a little, obscure Peruvian "newspaper". The Wikipedia is not obscure but the Wikipedia is not perfect, it has errors. Your reference to Chavez shirts is an error. No direct references have been made to this remote and obscure source of lies. If there are any references, they have been extracted, again, from your article. You are the main source of all that lies. Dear Racconish, you made a mistake. Your are telling lies about President Chavez. Please correct this.

Odalcet (talk) 11:49, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear Odalcet,
 * According to the 30 above, I have met my burden to prove the reliability of Godos Curay's article. Consequentely, the burden has shifted to you to prove the contrary. Are you intending to do it?
 * Also, this source is not anymore the only reference used in the note on Chavez. Are you intending to acknowledge it?
 * Could you kindly clarify your viewpoint on these issues? If not, your new statement in the article ,that "the reference to the President of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, it's being disputed as an unreliable source because is defamatory and insulting", would be unsustained.
 * While at it, could you clarify whether you consider my edit an "error" or a "lie"?
 * Thanks, <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 15:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

You have only one reference and that reference is false, is a lie. The other references are all invalid, just as the first one. Here is why:

(7) - Venezuela decides term limits today

Link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Magazine:

No reference to President Chavez shirts

(8) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Charvet_customers#cite_note-13

Who is "joacoramon"? Who is Pedro Lastra? Now you will tell me they are "very reliable"?

(9) - http://www.gentiuno.com/articulo.asp?articulo=2185

Who is "gentiuno.com"? Alexa ranking: 440,469 (world), 4,263 (Venezuela). This is not a valid source. This piece of trash says "las camisas de la Place Vendome le son irresistibles". It doesn't say President Chavez uses that shirts ("use" is not the same as "like"). I like Ferraris Testarossa but I'm not the owner of a Ferrari Testarossa. I like Angelina Jolie but I'm not Angelina's husband.

(10) - How can Godos Curay, living in Peru, know that Hugo Chavez uses Charvet shirts? How can you prove that Godos Curay has been near President Hugo Chavez?. How far can you be from a shirt owner and still know that person is using Charvet shirts? Are there ultrasonic Charvet detectors? Are that shirts radioactive? Are this shirts made with chemical tracers? Is Godos Curay a Chavez minister? Does he have x-ray vision? Godos Curay cannot prove that President Chavez uses Charvet shirts. Does President Obama use Charvet shirts?. Will you call Godos Curay? Michele Obama knows that, Godos Curay does not. You have to be near a person just to know what shirts is he is using, what kind of watches, what type of shoes. A person living in Piura cannot say what shirts are using a person in Caracas. And if that person is the President of Venezuela (or the President of any country) it's extremely difficult to be near that person, near enough to say "He is using Charvet shirts!".

(11) - This reference is invalid. Says "Wornat Olga" but points to "Marta Maria Sahagun Jimenez". No reference to Charvet shirts. Did Olga Wornat live with Chavez? Did you read the comments to this article? Do the readers think she's one of Latinamerica's best investigative journalists? They say "garbage interview... this is pure fiction, pure gossip. It is a great disappointment that people as Olga Wornat and David Puente use the media to disqualify a person lying on their personal life"

(12) - Marcano Cristina. No reference to Charvet shirts

The following references are mine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_biography_controversy

The incident raised questions about the reliability of Wikipedia and other websites with user-generated content that lack the legal accountability of traditional newspapers and published materials.[3] After the incident, Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales stated that the encyclopedia had barred unregistered users from creating new articles.

...

In reaction to the controversy, The New York Times business editor Larry Ingrassia sent out a memo to his entire staff commenting on the reliability of Wikipedia and writing, "We shouldn't be using it to check any information that goes into the newspaper."[12] Several other publications commented on the incident, often criticizing Wikipedia and its open editing model as unreliable, citing the Seigenthaler incident as evidence.

...

The scientific journal Nature published a (not peer-reviewed) study comparing the accuracy of Wikipedia and the Encyclopædia Britannica in 42 hard sciences related articles in December 2005. The Wikipedia articles studied were found to contain four serious errors and 162 factual errors, while the Encyclopædia Britannica also contained four serious errors and 123 factual errors.[13] From this, the journal drew the conclusion "that such high-profile examples (like the Seigenthaler and Curry situations) are the exception rather than the rule."

He stated that one problem was that Wikipedia's use had grown faster than its self-monitoring system could comfortably handle, and that therefore new page creation would be deliberately restricted to account-holders only, addressing one of Seigenthaler's main criticisms.

He also gave his opinion that encyclopedias as a whole (whether print or online) were not usually appropriate for primary sources and should not be relied upon as authoritative (as some were doing), but that nonetheless Wikipedia was more reliable as "background reading" on subjects than most online sources. He stated that Wikipedia was a "work in progress."

http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/

If an admin has a political or personal agenda, he can do a fair amount of damage with the special editing tools available to him. The victim may not even find out that this is happening until it's too late. From Wikipedia, the material is spread like a virus by search engines and other scrapers, and the damage is amplified by orders of magnitude. There is no recourse for the victim, and no one can be held accountable. Once it's all over the web, no one has the power to put it back into the bottle.

http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/usatoday.html

I do have an interest in letting as many people as possible know that, while Wikipedia may provide a great deal of factual information, it also is a flawed and irresponsible research tool. What purports to be helpful fact may well be harmful fiction. And, there is no way to tell the difference.

I also have an interest in unmasking my "biographer" and confronting him or her. Others who are defamed may feel differently than I about suing for libel.

And so, we live in a universe of new media with phenomenal, evolving opportunities for worldwide communications and research at our fingertips — but populated by anonymous, volunteer vandals with poison-pen intellects. No one is immune to similar attacks by mean-spirited acquaintances, vicious pranksters or total strangers.

When I was a child, my mother once lectured me on the evils of "gossip." She held a feather pillow in her hands and said, "If I tear this open, the feathers will fly to the four winds, and I never could get them back in the pillow. That's how it is when you spread mean things about people."

For me that pillow is a metaphor for Wikipedia.

Odalcet (talk) 03:34, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear Odalcet, let me try to answer each of the issues you raised.


 * Time Magazine. You point out there is no explicit mention of his shirts in the article. Granted, but inconclusive. The article is illustrated by a picture of Chavez wearing a red long sleeve shirt above a red T shirt and refers to "the head-to-toe combos he sports during his weekly TV show". This search in Google news archive returned 54 hits. In other words, a red shirt is part of Chavez' outfit when impersonating socialism. If such would not be the case, his Charvet shirts would not be an issue and we would not be discussing here. My reference to red as his trademark color and to his notorious red shirts help put his sartorial tastes in perspective. If he would not use clothing in his political communication, maybe nobody would care when he dresses like a traditional head of state.


 * Joacoramon. This is blogger who is a member of Global Voices Online, described in the Wikipedia's article as an international network of citizen journalists. The reference to his blog is a source illustrating the reactions of the man in the crowd in Venezuela, not proving the fact.


 * Gentiuno is presented here as an information portal. Its editor is the journalist Eleonora Bruzual. "Irresistible" is not ambiguous: Bruzual wrote in 2004 in El Universal about Chavez' "fine shirts acquired in Place Vendôme" and again the same month of his "shirts bought in the Place Vendôme in Paris".


 * Olga Wornat. The reference is not invalid, it points to the trial against Wornat, which is at this point the only mention of Wornat in Wikipedia. You are welcome to start a Wornat article and I will be happy to contribute. To make it short, as this not our direct subject, Wornat was not sentenced because she "lied", as you would say, but because she disclosed private information acquired in unethical manners. International organizations for free press have protested against her trial and she is notorious as an investigative journalist. As far as Chavez' shirts are concerned, she quotes the same source as Marcano, i.e. Roland Carreño. The blog entry you are quoting is not proving anything.


 * Marcano. Did not focus on Chavez' shirts, granted. But raised the issue of his taste for expensive designer clothing and watches and called him "possibly the best-dressed president in the history of Venezuela". Should I understand you accept her statements on Brioni, Cartier and other expensive items acceptable, but find other journalists' parallel statements on the same products or Charvet shirts trashy lies? Or is she too not "near enough" enough to Chavez to be accepted as a reliable source?


 * Godos Curay. As said earlier, it is now up to you to prove he is not reliable. The fact he is not Venezuelan is inconsequential.


 * Seigenthaler incident. I find your repeated references to hoaxes or lies perplexing. My attempts so far to reach a consensus should be enough to prove you my good faith... which I am not supposed to prove.


 * I had replaced in the article your section on your controversy by an inline template, clarifying which source was being discussed. You reverted this edit with no explanation.


 * I have to say I am trying to bring objective elements to a discussion and have the feeling to get biased answers. It seems to me every source you don't like is a lie and trash but any blogger who agrees with you is worth being quoted. And how comes you never acknowledged the 30 neutral point of view?


 * Cheers, <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 18:04, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Issue raised at WP:BLPN. <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 23:26, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * From BLPN. I would say, Chavez's inclusion here is a bit controversial as including him here asserts a position of opulant expeniture against his general image and appears weakly cited, his biographer says he shops in the area..that does not make him a client of the particular company, the Spanish citation appears to be more of an opinionated attack piece, I can not see from the citations a good reason to keep him in this group. Off2riorob (talk) 03:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * With respect, I disagree:


 * Opulent expenditure.
 * According to Marcano's biography (ch.11): "Today he is possibly the best dressed president in the history of Venezuela. And perhaps Latin America. Nowadays Chavez wears only the finest suits according to the society columnist and local fashion arbiter Roland Carreno: "Brioni, the Italian house, sends President Chavez his suits directly from New York [...] Carreno says that that "President Chavez possesses one of the most magnificent wardrobes of the continent", with ties by Hermes and Pancaldi. He has also developed a penchant for watches by Cartier, Boucheron, and Rolex. In 2003, the attorney's general office, headed by Chavez former vice president Isai­as Rodri­guez, who is a member of of Chavez party, received a formal complaint regarding the presidential expenses, which had ballooned by 1,000 percent. predictably, the investigation went nowhere. Berrizbeita, who was a member of the Venezuelan Congress from 2002 to 2005, began to keep track of Chavez's expenses in early 2002 [...] According to the information he has gathered, based on the official budget report, Chavez as president has cost the nation between $ 6,000 and $ 7,000 a day. By 2004, the presidential expenses had increased by 54.3 oercent over the previous year, placing the Miraflores budget at $ 60,894,764."
 * According to a report by Berritzbeita quoted here in 2004: "The investigation of presidential spending concluded that the sole expenses in clothing increased by 1000% and reached $ 124,000 last year, compared with $ 12,000 spent in 1998 by the then-president Rafael Caldera".


 * Shops in the area.
 * As you can check here, Charvet is the only men's clothing store on Place Vendôme. As indicated in the article, it is closely associated with place Vendôme, to the extent its corporate name and trademark is "Charvet Place Vendôme" (visual reference here). This google search returns results only for Charvet.


 * I don't think there is serious doubt Bruzual is referring to Charvet. The question is rather: Are the 2 sources (Bruzual + Godos Curay) sufficient enough to establish this fact. According to me, yes, particularly in view of complementary items in Chavez' wardrobe. If El Regional de Piura needs to be established as a reliable source, which I thought I had done, I did not think, based on this the reliability of El Universal was doubtful. As to the fact the sources are critical, my understanding is it is not a sufficient reason to discard them.


 * In any case, this is not an article about Chavez but about Charvet, and the priority is to establish a fact related to Charvet, not to analyse Chavez' wardrobe, image or expenses. I just quoted Marcano above to establish the disputed quotes are congruent with her generally esteemed work.


 * Thanks in advance for reconsidering, <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 17:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * That is correct, but adding Chavez is about him and blp, imo we have a case here of one plus one plus one plus he shops here and there is only this shop in that area s o it must be this shop .. when it is a controversial addition that is disputed by other editors then strong clear citations are required, I have yet to see that in any of these citations, a clear statement that Chavez is a customer of this shop, I am only translating the Spanish ones but if there is a citation that clearly supports this, for example a quote from Chavez himself that he likes these shirts and he buys them, a self declaration from the man himself? Off2riorob (talk) 17:31, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Again, Bruzual is not saying shirts bought Place Vendôme but shirts from Place Vendôme. I think there is no ambiguity: "shirts from Place Vendôme" mean shirts made Place Vendôme by Charvet, in Bruzual'a article as well as in this other article from another Venezuelan journalist. Place Vendôme is probably more meaningful to the Venezuelan reader than Charvet and when Godos Curay names Charvet, he specifies De Gaulle's shirtmaker. This is not one plus one plus one: there is only one shirtmaker on Place Vendôme, which happens to be one of the most famous and most expensive in the world, hence "irresistible" as Bruzual puts it. Here] is another source from Bruzual, specifying the shirts bought in "Place Vendôme de Paris" are "bespoke ". I hope the clarification will help evacuate any remaining doubt. It is quite clear on the other hand Chavez would not admit being Charvet's customer, because, as summarized by Marcano, he "has always ascribed a symbolic value to clothing". But is a self declaration a necessary condition? I doubt it. The only condition put in WP:LIVE is reliability. Which is why I was asked above to prove Godos Curay was such a reliable source. And it is my understanding I had brought sufficient elements of proof. <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 18:34, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Having restored a note on Chavez in the article, I realize the burden of evidence lies on me. I am using a new source [here], an article from Nelson Bocaranda. The Wikipedia's article on Bocaranda indicates sources showing he is is a respected generally reliable journalist. Concerning Bruzual, I have used only the reference in El Universal. Using Bocaranda and Bruzual as two secondary sources on Chavez acquisitions place Vendome, the next point is the identification of the place Vendome shirtmaker as Charvet. Granted it should not be original research, I use Godos Curay as an acceptable reliable source for the identification of the shirtmaker as Charvet. Odalcet, please note that this rewrite is as neutral as possible. <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 07:26, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

So, basically no body including Chavez is directly nameing him as a customer of the Charvet, they are all skirting around it, so we should not put him in the list either by using combinations of citations to add weight to the idea that they must be talking about Charvet. Please do not stuff him back in, his inclusion on this list is not supported by these citations. Off2riorob (talk) 10:48, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 14:33, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

What is "30"?
Racconish, what is "30"?

"The sheer fact we are discussing this here, with a 30, is a proof of.." - "According to the 30 above, I have..."

Odalcet (talk) 12:40, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * TransporterMan's third opinion per WP:3O request. <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 13:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Why President Chavez is so important for your list? Odalcet (talk) 14:53, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Not more than any other customer in the list. In any case, I don't think it's about me. Thanks for asking, nevertheless. <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 17:24, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Chavez again
In a recent article in Le Figaro, Charvet's manager says "one day, browsing the web, [I] recognize[d] one of [our] shirts worn by Venezuela's president, Hugo Chavez. The later was actually sending anonymously his bodyguard for the fittings". Is this source reliable enough for an inclusion in the list? <strong style=" font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk 13:07, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What is the desired addition/? It would need to be well attributed .. there were also some previous mentions in other sources together they may make a case for a small inclusion. Off2riorob (talk) 13:30, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Could be something like "Chavez' taste (quote from Godos Curay saying he is a customer from Charvet, from Bruzual saying he finds shirts from Place Vendome irresistible) for Charvet shirts has been confirmed by the shirtmaker himself (quote from Le Figaro)."  <strong style=" font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk  13:53, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am leaning towards an addition with the added weight of this claim - or at least not objecting as I did previously, perhaps if you lay it out here and see if there is any opposition to the desired addition. Off2riorob (talk) 13:59, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is my proposition:
 * Chavez' taste for Charvet shirts, , has been confirmed by the shirtmaker himself..
 * Thanks,  <strong style=" font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk  14:45, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Chavez' taste for Charvet shirts  has been confirmed by the shirtmaker himself. .

Lets allow 24 hours for any interested parties to comment? I am thinking to ask for opinions from the Chavez BLP article contributors? The citations do support the claim and the comment quite well though. Off2riorob (talk) 15:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * ✅. Thanks,  <strong style=" font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em">Racconish <strong style="font-size: 0.9em;letter-spacing: 0.1em" > Tk  09:01, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Chavez again (2)
Hi Racconish, it's been a long time since last time.... Your link about Chavez and Charvet is broken ("Chavez' taste for Charvet shirts has been confirmed by the shirtmaker himself"). And you said in 29 January 2010: "I would like to point out 2 reasons why your suggestion of asking a certification to Charvet is irrealistic: (1) As indicated in the article, Charvet declines to comment on its customers. (2) As suggested here, it is highly probable that Hugo Chavez does notshop himself abroad for his Charvet shirts". Did Off2riorob read all this discussion page? He is using previously rejected references... Is Charvet commenting now on its customers? I seriously doubt it. Still waiting for you here in Venezuela! Odalcet (talk) 00:55, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Odalcet. Welcome back. I was expecting you earlier . Hope you have been well!
 * Prior to the publication of the article in Le Figaro, the consensus, here and at WP:BLP, was the available sources were not sufficient in view of the controversial nature of the subject. Read here: "looking for a stronger assertion of patronage".
 * The article published on November 6, 2010 in Le Figaro Magazine, the weekly supplement of Le Figaro, satisfied such condition. It is a 4 pages article by Claude Vella entitled "Entrée des artistes" and subtitled "A droite comme à gauche, les hommes politiques ont bien souvent recours aux mêmes tailleurs. Enquête et confidences sur les dressings de la République". The fact the article is not available any more on Pickanews ( Too bad you did not react earlier! ) does not disqualify the source. But it entitles you to request a full quote of the paragraph where Charvet and Chàvez are mentioned. Here it is : "Place Vendôme, le chemisiser Charvet conserve jalousement les patrons des modèles du Général de Gaulle. “Mme de Gaulle adressait à chaque livraison un petit mot personnel à l'attention des ouvrières”, commente Jean-Claude Colban, héritier, avec sa soeur Anne-Marie, de cette maison historique créée en 1838. Usant de métaphores pour citer quelques illustres fidèles, il raconte qu'un jour, surfant sur le net, il reconnaît une de ses chemises sur le dos du président du Vénézuela, Hugo Chàvez. En fait, ce dernier envoyait anonymement son garde du corps pour les essayages." My translation hereabove: "one day, browsing the web, [I] recognize[d] one of [our] shirts worn by Venezuela's president, Hugo Chavez. The later was actually sending anonymously his bodyguard for the fittings". I had proposed here to include in the article the following shorter quote,"Il reconnaît une de ses chemises sur le dos du président du Venezuela, Hugo Chàvez", to support the following claim, "has been confirmed by the shirtmaker himself".
 * If I ever go to Venezuela, you will be one of the first to know! Cheers, RacconishTk 11:44, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, I spend quite some time investigating this previously and read everything available - so what has changed? Which source is broken (not that a broken source now makes a lot of difference if it was previously investigated ) - ? What has changed to give reason for removal? Off2riorob (talk) 13:00, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The link in question, http://www.pickanews.com/qespresspub/servlet/QESServlet_prepare?Mouvement=220250484&Format_document=1&Premier=1&Dernier=1, was to Pickanews, a multimedia search engine citing Le Figaro Magazine. It was available when I earlier discussed it with you hereabove, but is not any more. As I said, I think is perfectly entitled, now that the link is gone, to consider the provided quote was possibly too short and ask for a longer one, which he could have done with full, but I agree with you the broken link is not per se a reason for removal. See WP:ROT: " Do not delete factual information solely because the URL to the source does not work any longer.  WP:Verifiability does not require that all information be supported by a working link, nor does it require the source to be published online."  I shall nevertheless allow 24 hours for interested editors to comment before returning the article to its previous condition. RacconishTk 15:36, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Racconish, the quote is yours, not from Charvet. If the link is broken, the quote doesn't exist. Maybe it was false so it was removed... That's not factual information, that is information based in a link that doesn't exist. Even if that link existed, I don't see much value in that kind of comment: "[I] recognize[d] one of [our] shirts worn by Venezuela's president, Hugo Chavez. The later was actually sending anonymously his bodyguard for the fittings". You cannot prove President Hugo Chavez is using a Charvet shirt looking at a web page. It's extremely difficult even for Mr Charvet (is there a Monsieur Charvet?) to say, looking at a photograph, that there is one of his shirts. You cannot prove the photos here at the Wikipedia are from real Charvet shirts. That photos could be Chinese "Charvet" shirts, fakes. -

Here's a web site with very good archives. You can search for your quote here: http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

Odalcet (talk) 06:11, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Raised at WP:BLPN. RacconishTk 10:27, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

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