Talk:List of Christian hip hop artists

Inclusion criteria
Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Christian_performers_of_hip_hop_and_rap the inclusion criterion for this list is simply performers of Christian hip hop and rap. The list should not include performers who are Christian but do not perform the Christian sub-genre. Meters (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
 * How do you identify performers in this genre? Self-identification is not going to work because several prominent performers of the genre do not want to be identified with the genre at all. Please provide a comprehensive criteria for possible inclusion in the list. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:35, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't add performers to this article. The inclusion criterion has been set as artists who perform in the Christian hip hop genre. Since there is such a genre, there must be music of that genre, hence there must be artists who meet the criterion. What does it matter if they self identify or not? It was clear when the AFD was closed that Christian performers of hip hop was not a valid criterion for this article. Meters (talk) 05:43, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the confusion. Please
 * Stop linking directly to the article.
 * Give a criteria of which artists should be considered as performing in the genre.
 * While there is a genre, and you don't understand it or what constitutes inclusion in the genre. To some, such as Powell's 200 criteria, it is people who self-process as Christian and perform music of a specific genre. To others, such as G. Craige Lewis, Christian hip hop is an oxymoron as they are polar opposites. Performers of the "genre" don't want to be associated with it and their adherents will come here to remove them from the list. So either offer the requested criteria or explain why you can't. If you can't, then take this article off your watchlist because it's going back to where it came from. Cheers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:09, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * This is defined as a list of artists who perform Christian hip hop, so that is inclusion criteria. If we have reliable independent sources that describe somebody as a performer of Christian hip hop, than he should be included. It's very simple.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  09:02, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Two issues with your statement:
 * So only individual males should be included? I'm just being clear.
 * Your circular argument does not solve the problem.
 * Powell, and others, would argue that self-proclaimed Christians who perform hip hop are performers of Christian hip hop. Reviews of their music will appear in Christian publications and some might even allow their names to stand for industry awards, however their music is not on a "Christian" label and may lack distribution to Christian music stores.
 * Lewis and others say that there is not such thing as Christian hip hop and so there are no legitimate performers of Christian hip hop.
 * And there are still others who don't want to be on this list.
 * How do we determine who is considered a performer of Christian hip hop? If you don't want to address the actual issue with a clear definition, you're not helping. And don't give me nonsense that it's references, because I referenced subjects who were Christian and clearly performers of hip hop who were just removed and caused the article to be moved, twice. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)


 * As with many, many other genres, there often are people or groups of people who will contend that certain artists do or do not fall under a certain genre label, and there often are disagreements as to what the definition of a certain genre actually is (heavy metal is one such contentious genre that I work with and encounter a lot). As Walter illustrates above, there is some disagreement, or inconsistency, as to how Christian hip hop is actually defined. Thus, we go by reliable sources. If a reliable source associates an artist with the Christian hip hop genre, then they should be included here. As per convention on the Christian rock and Christian metal lists, it is even reasonable to list an artist who is defined as performing Christian music, and also performing hip hop. What is original synthesis is extrapolating to say that an artist who personally professes Christianity, or, if a group, whose members profess Christianity, and perform hip hop, but are not confirmed by reliable sources as performing within Christian music. That is why Lil Wayne or Boi-1da would be excluded from this list, but dc Talk, Lecrae, and Street Symphony are included - the former two, while professing Christians as confirmed by reliable independent sources, have not been associated with Christian music, while the latter three all have. Why should we defer to Powell's (or Doug Van Pelt's) definition as opposed to Lewis's? It all comes down to this: Does a source, regardless of the artist's (or artists') personal beliefs, identify said artist with Christian music and hip hop? If so, include the artist; otherwise, exclude.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 02:31, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. An artist who performs what a reliable source identifies as Christian hip hop is eligible for inclusion, and only such performers are eligible for inclusion. I think any attempt to move this article back to including any Christian artist who perform hip hop would be against consensus. Meters (talk) 04:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Seconded. I would say gospel music is tantamount to Christian music, for Half Mile Home are defined as R&B, hip hop, gospel group, by AllMusic.The Cross Bearer (talk) 05:14, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks 3family6. That's what I was aiming for, but what if there is contention and a Lecrae fan removes with their usual comment? Revert and indicate it's supported by a RS? Sure.and if we get someone adding Yo Majesty! or Lil Wayne in with an inconclusive ref, same. I won't have much time to add sources over the next few weeks, but possibly in the new year. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:47, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * How is this different from any other article or list? No one person owns the article or is responsible for it. Changes are made by anyone who wishes to, and the changes may be reviewed by anyone who chooses to patrol that particular article. Any entry of an artist whose article does not have a reliable source showing that they perform Christian hip hop should be removed, or possibly flagged for citation if it seems likely that they do perform Christian hip hop and it has not been mentioned in their article (I'd rather see the mention and citation added to their article). Meters (talk) 06:14, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are absolutely correct citations should be given to prove they are in fact CHH artists, where in an ideal world they would be utilized on their artist or BLP page.The Cross Bearer (talk) 02:47, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It's my understanding that The Cross Bearer is responding to me and I agree. As for Meters, there have been a few editors who have been attempting to request that RSes be added to list entries, not simply rely on sources to be present in linked article. That fails, W:PV. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:04, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Walter Görlitz perhaps you should ask User:The Cross Bearer who he or she's agreeing with if you have any doubt. It seems to me from the indentation and content that the response is in agreement to my comment that anything included in this list needs to be referenced to a reliable source showing the Christian Hip Hip genre.
 * I don't care whether such references are in the BLP only or also in this list. By a strict interpretation of WP:STANDALONE and WP:MINREF one could argue that the references need to be in the list as well as the BLP (or at least that one could force this by challenging all entries without refs), but some lists accept the sourcing only in the linked article. If I'm adding something to an existing list I follow whatever precedent has been set for that list.
 * I have no idea what you mean by "That fails, W:PV" That's a DAB page and none of the entries have anything to do with Wikipedia policy on lists or references. Meters (talk) 22:13, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * And a merry Christmas to you. Try WP:V. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:57, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Attention to the above contributing editors vs WG: same problems here as with Talk:List of Christian rock bands and List of Christian country artists I see. Notable artists missing (ie. rappers Hammer/Gibson) and those who aren't reliably sourced are added (Reuben is also included on the rock band list). These lists need revamping and be properly cited or removed... The CCM definition can't apply to all articles and contradicts who is or isn't added (some removed for only being "CCM" yet others are secular or not within the specific genre they are on the list as/for). Either it's a list of people in any specific genre who are just Christians (Rev Run or Mase/Diddy), regardless of the context/message/style of their music (which would mean the article should be deleted since there are no such articles for Buddhist hip hop artists or Atheist rock bands, etc.) or they are recognized as strictly/only doing Christian music/lyrics/genre period. If changes aren't made on these lists soon then it means people are only fans of artists and just namedropping or being stubborn by not following Wiki guidelines for lists. In either case, I will take it to a noticeboard until the problems are resolved. This is nonsense when it's a simple fix/solution. I made my point many times and repeated myself so there should be no reason for back-and-forth responses then just ignoring these issues when there is a consensus! Thank you kindly... 2600:1702:1690:E10:61F2:BC0C:F749:4834 (talk) 07:06, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The Christian Music Industry doesn't own the term "Christian Music" and so the term is vague and this list, as many other "Christian musicians" lists use that approach and equate "Christians performing in the genre" as sufficient. You'll need to establish a consensus to change that. I'm opposed to making the change.
 * There are many more lists of musicians that do not have references than those that do, so the references issue is a greater one than a few lists that you have looked at. The fact that you refuse to accept references that go against your personal opinion is a separate issue.
 * That subjects are missing is simply an oversight. Feel free to add them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:43, 15 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Agree to disagree but i'm not the one who has had issues with references. The consensus on the other list(s) like this is that certain individuals/bands don't belong and regardless of your spotty source(s), they should be removed. We can't include all "Christians" doing secular music on these lists. Shalom! 2600:1702:1690:E10:693E:AB91:A002:44E2 (talk) 05:43, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Jon Gibson
Should he be included? Not all people agree. Nigos (t@lk • Contribs) 04:32, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that the source supplied, https://www.soultracks.com/jon_gibson.htm, is reliable. I'd be happy to take it to either WP:RSN or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums, where's they're discussing sources.
 * My primary objection is that it's not the subject's primary genre. Nothing sourced at the subject's article. https://www.allmusic.com/artist/jon-gibson-mn0000254698/biography and none of the AllMusic reviews       mention rap or hip hop, but they do mention dance, R&B, and other genres. Quotes from
 * "Aint' It Pretty" combines rap and metal guitar
 * Change of Heart also includes the innovative rock-rap number "The Wall"
 * but the rap is by M.C. Hammer, not Gibson.
 * MC Peace is mentioned later as doing raps
 * "In Too Deep" offers a kitchen-sink of melodic chorus with rapped verses
 * "Hip hop" is not mentioned. The question is, do a few songs out of more than fifty constitute being a hip hop artist? That's my primary objection. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:57, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm so sick and tired of doing this with you over the years then me being blocked or considered disruptive when it is YOU who continues to revert multiple times without consensus or discussion, going as far as to mention adding them above now having a 'change of heart' since you undo or change EVERYTHING I contribute out of spite. You were wrong on Billy Graham and on Gibson's article many times. You are completely ignorant about him and his music as has been proven over the years via your constant reverts and leaving his article a mess! He rapped on "The Wall" (have you ever actually listened to it?) when he mentions he's 'JG' (not only Hammer) plus he raps SOLO on '"Ain't It Pretty" (whether it has metal guitar during a period in the 80s when that was popular doesn't matter), "Love Come Down", "In Too Deep", "Happy To Know Jesus", "Enough is Enough" (amen to that), "You Are The One" (harmonizes with MC Peace) and others! His album Jesus Loves Ya (including some of the songs i'm mentioning) was considered "edgier" and "urban" as well as 'The Man Inside' classified within the hip hop genre and record label. And songs/singers don't have to rap to be hip hop! You think Kirk Franklin raps (based on your limited definition of hip hop)? He's on the list. You think Toby Mac only does rap and hip hop? He's on the list as well. Gibson was considered the first notable white Christian hip hop artist but just because you don't agree or he wasn't as publicized and used African-Americans in his songs doesn't discredit the fact he should be included since HE did contribute even if he's not solely hip hop. You think Van Morrison is a Christian rock band based on his faith when his own article says he doesn't consider himself Christian. You think U2 is a Christian rock band. Maybe you can't tell when Gibson is rapping in songs but hip hop is more than rapping. Educate yourself first. Then stop bothering me and "owning" articles! 2600:1702:1690:E10:3193:3723:58B7:5935 (talk) 05:27, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have heard (and spun) "The Wall" and I acknowledge that he raps on it, but one song doesn't make a rap artist. He uses rap as a tool in his pop and R&B songs, he's not a rapper. That's what my sources stated. If one song on an otherwise pop album makes a pop artist a rapper, Bryan Duncan's "Don't Ya Wanna Rap" would put him on the list, and Crystal Lewis would be here too. Your claim that Gibson is considered a "white hip hop artist" is not supported by any reliable sources. TobyMac is on the list because he was DC Talk's rapper. Four solid albums and an EP of rap by the artist is what puts him here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:38, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Score 1-1. Not a consensus but with my overwhelming evidence it should remain on the list with a cite/tag added OR include the songs/albums behind his name that qualify. Just like on the other lists you monopolize. Sources are on his article even if he's not predominately in the hip hop genre. He qualifies as much as R. Kelly on the 'list of gospel artists' for his ONE album. Knock it off already, Walt in BC! P.S. Don't lie and say he didn't rap on it then. You're still wrong and we both know it! 2600:1702:1690:E10:3193:3723:58B7:5935 (talk) 05:50, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Nope, WP:BATTLEGROUND states that there needs to be consensus. This being a BLP article, it needs extremely reliable sources. I don’t think soundtrack.com is one of them. Nigos (t@lk • Contribs) 07:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * You don't think doesn't make it true but it's not worth it to me to prove myself to this stubborn knucklehead. He changes everything on my edits and he's had to eat crow many times already. He has it out for Gibson for some reason. Just see his article which shows all his reverts because WG must be mad that Gibson out-ranked/charted someone else he's a fan of probably and still has angst against him or something. All the "Christian list" articles are crap. They're not all sourced. He uses a source for Van Morrison doing Christian rock that doesn't even mention it just because it's from Rolling Stones. He claims U2 is a Christian band yet NO source states this just because they only mention sporadic godly/spiritual themes in songs. Yet he argues on here that it's an issue all the sudden? It's like when he accuses others of edit wars and 3RR or sock puppetry which he is/was guilty of and blocked for. Look at the Christian hip hop article to see it's lacking sources/cites for verification like stating Toby Mac was the first mainstream Christian rapper and other false claims (or statements not sourced and made by a fan's point of view)!?! POD technically doesn't rap but is on this list. Even this article doesn't say it has to be a rapper and Kirk Franklin doesn't rap either! But him being associated with hip hop is the same as J.G. Walt reverted a contribution of mine on Billy Graham three times then conceded that I was right yet still had to get the last change/word, so he altered my sentence. He stalks/follows me on articles like "Ya Mo B There" and now Deezer D just to have his imprint on everything. Someone on Gibson's article approved my edit then he had to "accept it" just to harass me. That's after he removed a source with Gibson's name and song on it that WG claims isn't there! It's annoying. He's always sabotaging my efforts which is why i only use an IP when editing on articles he watches. I use an account with the ability to block him otherwise but i can't do that obviously. I'm just waiting it out. Then when i claimed/reported he is hounding me, he goes to a noticeboard saying I did it to him! INSANITY! No wonder why "anons" get so angry. It's creepy/weird/crazy! I'm not the only one he's doing this to. His lack of attention to detail frustrates me. He should be ignoring me and only [you] or others give input. He does this on purpose because I've outsmarted him in the past and can't get over it. We have bad history. I can't stand him. He lies, trolls, tag-teams, OWNS, 3RR, edit wars, attacks, etc. This is just his way of having control. I did this and other edits days ago just as proof/evidence. I couldn't care less if JG is on the list or not. It's the point/principle of his violations. He's not consistent. He wants articles his way or no way. He's being a hypocrite on here but when I go remove others that don't qualify, he justifies them or ignores talk page messages for resolution.
 * Notices on these articles need to specify the 'list is incomplete' with many missing entries and still not added (i already gave examples on talk pages to improve the article). These tags need to be added on the "Christian music list" articles (ie. List of Christian country artists / List of gospel musicians, etc.) and individuals on them who are not qualified to be on the list and/or are not sourced, as well as the Christian hip hop article. Just like with Van Morrison, U2, Twenty One Pilots, John Reuben and others on List of Christian rock bands with the consensus being to remove them yet they remain!

2600:1702:1690:E10:91A9:ECEC:71CE:A25B (talk) 09:04, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Responding to Nigos' earlier comment on sources, I tried to appeal to a few, and will see if I can find additional today. Would you mind responding to my question? It's undeniable that Gibson had rap on albums, and he didn't always perform the rap. the question is, does including a few songs over his career make him a hip hop artist? Does including rap in a pop song make you a rap artist. Anon's point is that he did so when few white artists were doing it (Steve Taylor had one song in 1982, dcTalk and TobyMac started in 1989, D-Boy—a Hispanic rapper—also started in 1989, while Gibson's Frontline releases were 1986, 1988, 1990 and 1992, with a compilation in 1991) and so should qualify for some special interest. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * You need to come to terms with the fact you also don't always have the best sources and/or best edits/history either:
 * 1. We should be working together, not you blocking my efforts when you see i'm making an effort to improve articles!
 * 2. Like other "lists" articles within the Christian genres, it should include anyone who made any contribution to them...
 * 3. Just like VM, U2, etc. Or Christian country done by Dolly Parton, Dion during 80s and B.J. Thomas during 70s/80s
 * 4. People may not ONLY do hip hop, country, rock, etc. BUT did contribute at some/one point - which qualifies them!
 * 5. This was your own interpretation so removing JG is a deliberate snub per your clouded judgment of me/IPs/anons
 * P.S. JG isn't some one-hit-wonder you make him out to be who didn't pave the way for other r&b/rappers/soul artists
 * 2600:1702:1690:E10:89B:5DE:8ED4:EFCA (talk) 21:11, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'll only address a few of your points. 1. I am trying to work together. It seems that any correction to your edits are seen as an attack. They're not. I know you won't accept that, but it's the truth. 2. I don't understand this point, but I'll assume it means that inclusion in the lists should be based on your criteria, not those of reliable sources. 4. This is the point I'm trying to discuss here. I don't believe it should be anyone who has included elements of hip hop in an otherwise pop career, or rock in a career of Southern gospel, or jazz elements in an otherwise hardcore punk career. It should be the genres that reliable sources can be attributed to the subject. 5. I removed Gibson because he does not qualify as a rapper. He has included elements of rap in his pop career, but the reliable sources I've looked at don't really emphasize rap as his primary genre, although Powell mentions it frequently, but always with qualifications. I plan to investigate further. The problem is that Gibson wasn't written about much despite having a lot of radio success. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:00, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I see you couldn't resist making slight petty changes to my entries again even though they're on a talk page and insignificant to the "big picture" guy. Does your perfectionism on here translate in your personal and religious life too? Anyway, back to the topic at hand...
 * 1. Keep in mind this cat was a part of the Christian hip-hop/rap group Holy Ghost Boys ("B-Boy Chill" and "Word" including the ORIGINAL "The Wall" at least a year or two before being commercially released as a record track when Hammer didn't even use M.C. yet) before his mainstream fame which pre-dated other popular Christian rappers (such as tobyMac). I personally enjoy dcTalk so this isn't a jab at him/them. Just sharing truth!
 * 2. Your past Wikipedia posse deleted some hip hop artists Gibson collaborated with (considered "bragging" blah blah) years ago yet you got to keep yours on Jimmy and Carol Owens vs (Gibson's were also notable associations)
 * 3. I'm sure you'll dispute the sources below and say they're not reliable/legit (just a few quick ones I searched since you haven't yet) but based on his pre-secular hip hop ministry/rapping and later mainstream contributions (having more than 50 songs by the way) i think he should be mentioned in some way on this article!
 * 4. Gibson did a remix of "Jesus Loves Ya" with Scott Blackwell (from The Hits album)
 * 5. I'm not the one who decides what criteria is or isn't acceptable or a legit source/reference. You're projecting. That's totally your game/style. To the point of being a copy-cat when i've accused you of something then flipping the script to complain on message boards that i'm the guilty one. From now on take a deep breath before reporting/reverting and talk it out for goodness sakes. For a Christian you shouldn't be serving/worshipping Wiki, you should be representing Christ first.
 * "one of the very first 'big name' artists to embrace holy hip-hop" & "Fellow Californian and B-Rite Music (hip hop label) artist Jon Gibson, connected with Sup from his pioneering days in Gospel hip-hop multiple years ago."
 * 2000 rap song below featuring Gibson although he only does melody/chorus/vocals it's still a part of a rapper's record (album called Dust by Sup The Chemist released February 1, 2000 Hip-Hop/Rap genre)
 * & "...hip-hop, R&B and rap vocalist..."
 * "pioneered Christian rap" (repeated/copied on other sites)
 * "As The Sun Rises" (feat. Jon Gibson) · Sup The Chemist from above album (can search and listen to song sampling "Dust in the Wind" by Kansas)
 * P.S. This is not sourced but based on my extensive knowledge of Hammer/Gibson, i agree there is little 'written' (mentioned) about him which has been why it's difficult to 'prove' what i know as fact on here and he's honestly treated like the "Hammer" of christian music. Allot of crabs-in-a-basket mentality because of bitter/jealous media not willing to give him props due to his similar sound to Wonder and MJ. This hurt him and it's unfortunate he was considered difficult to categorize since he's exclictic.
 * (spare site/source unrelated to this topic)
 * (not a great source for this but saving/leaving here as an archive/resource unrelated to this topic)
 * 2600:1702:1690:E10:81E8:66DD:4AC2:FE7A (talk) 00:39, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * As I've explained before, these supposed "slight petty changes" are both a guideline and a manual of style. Read all about it at MOS:INDENTGAP. "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." Please read the page and comment on it. Further deliberate attempts to circumvent it or to try to punish me by ignoring it because you think it's my petty rule will be reported. Remember, it's not my reporting your actions that gets you blocked, it's your actions that get you blocked. I'll assume other editors put up with your poor behaviour since it's not usually problematic or more trouble to deal with the process of blocking you than it is to just ignore you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm glad he was part of Holy Ghost Boys. Did he rap for the group? Did he just write or sing? The sources at the M.C. Hammer page don't really explain his role in the band. 1. You'll notice that neither of the other two musicians who were in dcTalk are included in this list. It's because their careers went on to not include rap or hip hop. The same is the case for Jon Gibson. 2. Your claim that there is a "posse" is unfounded. I'll let comment on his involvement with the edit because I don't know the editor. I have not worked with the editor. 3. Again, assuming that involvement with rap and hip hop musicians as a producer or otherwise doesn't make you a rapper or hip hop artist. I can list lots of producers who have worked in various genres who are not actually part of that genre (Mutt Lange, Terry Scott Taylor to name two). Instead of circling around that idea, state it. yes, not one of the sources states that Jon Gibson was a rapper or hip hop artist. One was 404, at least at my end, and most of the others do not meet WP:RS. 4. And what does that mean? Blackwell was a dance artist. Would you like to add Gibson to the list of Christian dance, electronic, and techno artists now? What is the relevance to this list and this discussion? 5. I'm not asking you to decide the criteria, I'm asking you to provide reliable sources that independent of the subject that say he was a rapper or a hip hop artist, or that the general characteristic of his music made it rap or hip hop. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:09, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it's pretty clear why they keep getting blocked all a person has to do is look over their edits and comments and it's a no brainer. Way to go trying to reason it out with them [User:Walter Görlitz. I don't have the time to research or deal with obvious serial trolls, however well meaning their additions and it seems you have things well in hand so there is little for me to add. I also realize this comment could be seen as not assuming good faith but there again look at the edits and block logs (they IP hop so this won't be the only one they've had) Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:31, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Kanye West
We need reliable sources which call him a Christian hip hop artist, not just an artist who has songs about Christianity.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 03:28, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
 * He has said that he's quitting the secular music business. Source: https://www.kanyidaily.com/2019/10/kanye-west-reportedly-quits-secular-music-says-he-will-only-make-gospel-music.html 2001:5B0:4BD3:6E38:9C2:7725:3011:7CF (talk) 22:07, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting, but it's a rumour, and the source is not a reliable source. I reverted the addition. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:19, 28 October 2019 (UTC)