Talk:List of College of William & Mary alumni/Archive 2

Editing help
I added an entry for Hugh Nelson, ambassador to Spain. I am not sure how to NOT link to an article for another person with that same name. There is no article on Hugh Nelson, I don't think. I am aware of the problem and will try to figure it out soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ProfReader (talk • contribs) 00:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Discretion in making the cut
It seems that previous editors have dropped the bar pretty low for making it onto this list. While the list is not specifically named as such, I think the point is to include NOTABLE alumni. In the federal section, I have gone back to previous work by others and tried to include all members of Congress, all cabinet members, all presidents (obviously), and all members of the federal courts.

At the state level, certainly governors should make the list, but I don't really think that state trial court judges are NOTABLE. I'm not even sure that a list of all alums who have served in statehouses is really relevant. Regardless, I struck mere candidates for office and things like that.

In sports, I think the list should be limited to any players in the relevant league (NFL for football, for example), those of special note wherever they played, and coaches. I just think assistant coaches and players from the European Football League are not really notable. I know that WP is not just for American audiences, but playing in the Canadian football league is not really NOTABLE in the field of football. Being the fastest runner in a nursing home doesn't make you a notable track star.

And, note that I am not confusing fame with notability. For example, I have included some old players from the 1920s and 1930s who people today have probably never heard of. Same for early 19th century federal judges. But, in their days, they were at the top of their game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ProfReader (talk • contribs) 15:53, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * If there's a pre-existing page for the alumna/us, then it's notable. Do not take out alumni just because you think they don't deserve to be on the list, especially if they have their own WP entry already. Notice that this article is called "List of College of William & Mary alumni" NOT "List of Only the Most Notable College of William & Mary alumni" — it can be as long and inclusive as necessary, which it is.


 * In response to likening the Canadian Football League to a nursing home: get a clue. Just because you have an American-centric mind doesn't mean that any sports (especially football) that fall outside of our borders are JV-status. Most good CFL teams could compete with any number of NFL teams in a game, so trying to straw man its importance is laughable. As for NFL Europa, there is only one player listed there and it is because he was a starter on the NFL Europe Championship-winning team, which is more than enough reason to mention him.


 * If I see you start cropping alumni out haphazardly because you don't seem to think they should be on the page for your own personal reasons then I'm going to revert it. I guess I'm going to have to start watching every edit more closely now. Jrcla2 (talk) 19:35, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * As to the "notability" issue, please don't claim that I have American-centric problems just because I offered an example of a European football player as not making the cut. It was an example.


 * There are about 75,000 alumni of the College living, and there are probably at least that many below ground. Despite the fact that the name of the article does not specifically refer to "notable," it surely implies that.  If this is meant to be a list of EVERY graduate, then it really needs to be deleted completely as wildly falling short of the mark of being comprehensive.  It doesn't even get to 0.5% coverage.  Moreover, one of the columns about each graduate is "Notability."  When this list began, it was undeniably meant to include notable grads and not everyone who attended the College.


 * So, assuming that the list is supposed to include just notable graduates, I'm happy to agree that different people can define notability differently. Perhaps the solution is to create a separate sub-category distinguishing Major League Baseball and National Football League players from other leagues, for example.  This is no different than dividing out Virginia governors from others.  When most of the entries on a list (all governors) share a common characteristic (Virginian), that characteristic starts to look more like a defining criteria for inclusion in a special list and not just a random characteristic of a larger group.


 * I'm glad you spent some time getting this list on track, but it is not your personal property. Don't jump down my throat for exercising my WP right to make changes.  For example, you wrote this: "If I see you start cropping alumni out haphazardly because you don't seem to think they should be on the page for your own personal reasons then I'm going to revert it."  Well, fine.  But, just remember that your haphazard inclusion of something because you seem to think it should be on the page for your own personal reasons might drawn a reversion.  Now before you go typing a snide response to that, all I'm saying is that your opinion about what is "haphazard" and what is worthy of inclusion is just that -- your opinion.  Moreover, my decision to delete something was not haphazard by any definition.  In fact, I specifically explained myself.  If you do the same, then you can convince me otherwise.


 * I'd love to see this list resubmitted for Featured List status, but it still needs some work. For example, I've doubled the list of ambassadors, added about forty congressmen, twenty senators, and more than a dozen federal judges.  I mean, when this article was submitted for Featured List status, it didn't even include all four of the College's Supreme Court justices.  So, please don't claim that I'm being too selective in deciding things about coverage.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by ProfReader (talk • contribs) 21:46, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Big help needed
I was just updating the info on Sarah Brady based on her obituary with a better reference to the New York Times instead of the Alumni Association's list of notable alumni. I also clicked on that link (dating back to about 2009 at least) to the Alumni Association, and I found that it is now dead. So, I went to the Alumni Association page to see if perhaps the page had just been redesigned. Nope! Instead, the page is completely gone and has been replaced with a link back to this exact same Wikipedia page. That means that several dozen entries on this list now lack any documentation whatsoever (because the sole source had been to the now-circular Alumni Association page). I'm going to suggest that updating those entries to more stable and credible sources would be a good project for anyone who follows this page.ProfReader (talk) 14:56, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Washington not an alumnus?
Article states George Washington was a W&M alumnus in the "class of 1754", without citation. Meanwhile the George Washington article doesn't mention him ever having attended any college, plus that article's talk page flatly states he never studied at William & Mary, though he was later the first chancellor of the college. Can someone who can provide a source either way please clear this up? Too Orangey For Crows (talk) 12:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This is, at best, a gross overstatement. I'm a W&M grad, and even I think so.  Starting in 1693, the College had been put in charge of examining and licensing surveoyrs.  Washington indeed got his license from the College, but I don't think he ever took any courses at the College.  Just getting his license there would be like saying that President Clinton was educated at the Arkansas Department of Motor Vehicles since he got a driver's license from them.  If anyone can document that Washington actually STUDIED anything at the College, I'd like to see it.  I don't think that he ever lived in Williamsburg as a teenager when he was licensed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.143.5.138 (talk) 15:27, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

According to the College, he was. https://alumni.wm.edu/notable_alumni/george_washington.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.144.199.181 (talk) 05:30, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to see an actual reference to the fact he studied at the College at all to get his surveying license. The school administered licenses, but I have never seen any reference to the school's having actual TAUGHT people how to be surveyors in the first place. That might have been so, but I'd like to see a reference to it. Otherwise, my earlier comparison to the DMV stands.ProfReader (talk) 13:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Here is what one source had to say about the licensing of George Washington: "Washington was only seventeen years old in July 1749 when supervisors from the College of William and Mary named him Surveyor for Culpeper County, Virginia. During this time, a board of representatives from the College appointed surveyors in each county in order to assure their qualifications and, ostensibly, to limit excessive patronage. But in Washington's case, he never went to Williamsburg to receive his appointment, and most historians agree that William Fairfax was responsible for Washington's unlikely assumption of such an important office at so young an age." That's from "A Companion to George Washington" from 2012. Again, I don't think it is accurate to represent him as a student in any way (alumni or not). There is no evidence that he received any instruction in anything at the College. The surveyor office was a quasi-political post. Yes, the College might have administered the offices, but it's not right to claim him as a student at all.ProfReader (talk) 14:05, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

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External links modified
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I have just modified 2 external links on List of College of William & Mary alumni. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to https://www.wju.edu/about/history/bldgs/mollohan.asp
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100615134710/http://www.swem.wm.edu/archives/collections/bucktrout/name-index.cfm to http://swem.wm.edu/archives/collections/bucktrout/name-index.cfm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090606063520/http://as.wm.edu/Faculty/Winfree.html to http://www.as.wm.edu/Faculty/Winfree.html

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Semi-protected edit request on 24 July 2018
Add Jason Miyares to State Legislators. JD Degree from W&M and has been in office since 2016 Hulseamber1 (talk) 15:37, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Cannolis (talk) 08:40, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

The College of William and Mary no longer calls itself that. It calls itself William & Mary
Could This article be retitled "List of William & Mary alumni." The university calls itself William & Mary now. See branding handbook: http://visualidentity.blogs.wm.edu/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Compressor23 (talk • contribs) 19:04, 17 June 2019 (UTC)


 * It's the formal name of the institution, not the slang name. 67.176.1.108 (talk) 21:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Recent edits - reverting names to redlinked status
This edit and this edit reverted individuals to a redlinked/empty article status. Some of these people had a previous nolink status (which ennables sorting within the List's table) because they had been redlinked for quite some time. For instance,
 * William Crump has been redlinked/without a Wikipedia article (regardless of if he was delineated as plain William Crump or as the diplomat) since the name was added to the List in 2013 - chances are that if he has not gotten an article in the 6 years since his name was added he will probably never get an article. Redlinking does not necessarily engender article creation, Crump was both redlinked and not-redlinked during the past 6 years with no article in sight. Will someone who was an ambassador to Chile for 2 years during the 1840s under Polk get an article?...doesn't look all that probable. He's notable enough as an individual to be on this List but there either doesn't seem to be enough biographical information or enough editorial interest to create an article for the man and apparently leaving his name as a redlink has not helped to get an article for him. Anyway leaving the name as sortable but with no link doesn't prevent anyone from trying to create an article for him. There are also some other names that are now redlinked - let's discuss etc. Shearonink (talk) 18:39, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion (or not) in list
David Crank - So. Should he be included on this List as an alumnus of W&M? Shearonink (talk) 16:32, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Production Designer for 92nd Academy Awards nominated Knives Out,
 * Art Director for Academy-award winning (+12 Oscar noms) Lincoln (film),
 * Art Director for Academy-Award winning & nominated There Will Be Blood,
 * Art Director for Academy-Award nominated The Master (2012 film)
 * Art Director for Water for Elephants (film) and The Double (2013 film) and The New World (2005 film) etc.
 * Major player on multiple "Notable Enough to have a Wikipedia Article" films.
 * Major player on multiple Oscar-nominated films.
 * Attended W&M.
 * Info about Crank is well-sourced.
 * Because there is such a plethora of non-notables on the list already, it may be time limit inclusion to only those with a Wikipedia article, as is the case with many list articles. I'm sure a handful of editors might only be concerned with puffing up the number of names on the list, but most editors are far more interested in enhancing the encyclopedic quality of the list by adding blue-linked articles which allow readers to easily learn more about the person. If editors insist on adding redlinks to the list, one of the best ways to avoid any doubt about notability would be by listing those achievements which best support any "presumed notability" that person may have (eg. won 4 Oscars and a Peabody).  This would be preferred to a random list of movies they worked on (which don't even mention the person).  Also, a source other than the university's alumni association would benefit these redlinked entries. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I am only referring to David Crank. Just because other possible non-notables are presently on this List shouldn't impact his inclusion or not. He has had *major* positions on major films, why do you think he shouldn't be included? (and, last I checked, not every department head gets mentioned in Wikipedia articles about the various films). If you want to make this a List only for alumni who have WP articles then open up an RfC and have at it. And I am not part of any possible handful of puffing-up editors, I just think the Emmy-winning/award-nominated Mr. Crank has as much as - if not more of - a right to be on this List as many other people already listed here. I don't disagree with you that there are many seemingly non-notable people on this List (plus some notables who only have a very tenuous relationship to W&M - like George Washington...), but the parameters of inclusion on the List should be put up for an RfC and an editorial consensus arrived at. Shearonink (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * He now has an article with notability established so his name should be added back in: David Crank. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 22:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Robin Ashton
Robin Ashton could be added. GuardianH (talk) 22:17, 30 September 2022 (UTC)