Talk:List of Cornell University fraternities and sororities/Archive 1

May 2014 changes
Although linked, this article was not as prominent from the main Cornell University page in light of the size and importance of the Greek System at the University. Therefore, I expanded the dialog slightly on the Cornell page itself, and added a Hatnote. I then expanded this page, the List of fraternities and sororities at Cornell University, to include conference affiliations and dates of local founding - where available. For reference these were usually from the University's own Student Life website or Baird's, 19th Edition (1991 data). Taking it a bit further, I moved the ownership / leasehold discussion toward the bottom of the page as this discussion was less important than the introduction of those chapters. I shortened some very long subheader titles, and generally cleaned things up with improved formatting, greek letters for clarity of recognition, and more descriptions. Finally, I added as many Greek letter organizations as I could find from among the professional, honor, service and recognition societies, generally following the headings set forth by Bairds, along with descriptions and the conferences. Placement within categories is somewhat malleable, and may certainly be adjusted by someone more informed. For example, Recognition societies may be moved to Honor societies without a problem, I think. (After thinking about it I am doing this today.) The difference between the two is diminishing. Previously, Honors societies had more programming along with awards they distributed. Recognition societies allowed a person to apply for recognitions. I'm going to do some additional work on this distinction, combining recognition and honor groups, and linking to WP pages in the subheadings for each type of society. Jax MN (talk) 16:15, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Aggressive editing, in and out of IFC?
Oddly, some of the property-holding fraternities that I know to be solidly in existence at this writing are not listed within IFC on the Student Life section of the Cornell University website. For example, Phi Sigma Kappa. In the CURP'66 section, there is a note stating that the Kappa Alpha Society chapter is "reported to be in exile," and that fraternity's rather cryptic WP page has on its Talk page that there is/was a "current crisis." And does anyone know what happened to Alpha Omicron Pi? Anyone know about these situations?
 * After studying this, I think I have it figured out. There is a difference between "unrecognized" and "dormant". The page now reflects these two situations. Jax MN (talk) 04:07, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors are often zealous, and these may be oversights, or 'old news'. But I would suggest that, if internal politics and occasional sanctions place a campus fraternity out of recognition for a time, that the place to note this is on the Student Life website, and not here on the WP page. Suspended chapters with property and long relationships with the campus will likely return. We may want to insert a caveat to this effect in the paragraph introduction to the list of each council group, but such may be overkill. Jax MN (talk) 22:44, 14 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I think I landed on a solution. 2013-14 was a banner year for chapters getting kicked off of campus, sadly.  For those who retain viable living quarters and are on a 1 year or less probation regimen, I left them in the main section of 'active' chapters.  For those who have been kicked off for multiple years, for example, four or five years, I've placed their names under 'dormant' chapters with a link referencing the situation. Reasonable?  Jax MN (talk) 04:07, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Order - Alphabetical or by founding date?
As a Greek society member (not from Cornell), my preference is to list chapters in order of local founding. This has been the standard method in Baird's, as, I suppose, a way of honoring system pioneers and elders. However, Cornell has so many chapters that to the non-Greek this may be confusing. One alternative that IFCs and Panhel groups use is to render them in alphabetical order, Alpha to Omega (that is, by the order of the Greek alphabet). In a third option, one editor, Unician just adjusted the IFC fraternities section into English alphabetical order, which I grant is quite logical, but does not follow the two more common precedents. WP entries vary, and I suppose this is a coin toss, based on what users want. Any opinions out there? Jax MN (talk) 04:31, 15 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks again, Jax MN, for your major work on this article! {  The IFC section lists 39 fraternities; I never thought about the order of presentation until you added the explicit Greek letters, when it became obvious that it wasn't in alphabetical order in Greek (for example, it puts Χ before Δ, and lists Ζ at the very end).  It was, however, in almost-perfect alphabetical order by English letter names, 38 of 39 names in English order with only one exception, one adjacent pair switched.  Thinking that couldn't be an accident, I moved that one inconsistent entry to make the ordering complete.  (I moved ΦΚΤ Phi Kappa Tau one spot down to follow ΦΚΨ Phi Kappa Psi.)  With or without that adjustment, the founding dates are in more or less random order.  If you think that chronological order is more appropriate, I have absolutely no objections, and I'll even help; same with Greek alphabetical order.  Once we pick an ordering, we should mention it in the article.  Unician &nabla; 07:02, 15 May 2014 (UTC)


 * OK, I just completed adding in all the dormant societies I could find, plus dates of dormancy. This helped identify some Honors and Professional groups that I'd missed the first time through, so I added them to the active groups. New subtitles too. So by this point it is a pretty good list.  One thing someone could do in the future is add a section listing the many groups that were founded at Cornell. Now that you can see all these groups together, let's get a consensus on whether to alphabetize by the Latin names (ABCD...) or in order of Greek letter (ΑΒΓΔ...) or by dates of national founding...  You'll see that the list of IFC chapters reads pretty well as it is.  However, I show the Professional and Honor chapters by date of founding, which allows Phi Beta Kappa, Sigma Xi, and the important locals to pop up to the top of the list, as a nice recognition of their status among their peers. Stakeholders?  Let us know.  Jax MN (talk) 01:29, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I adjusted the Interfraternity Conference chapters to order them by date of original founding. Please take a look, and comment here. This model is consistent with similar pages from other campuses. I'll work on the sororities and multi-cultural groups shortly. Jax MN (talk) 19:04, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I still aver that a sortable table is the best solution, as that would allow the visitor to sort by local founding, national founding, chapter name, national name, and whatever else we deem worthy of sorting by.- choster (talk) 01:32, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Superfluous (?) addresses
I'm curious as to the purpose of adding street addresses of houses as references. If anything, they should be added as notes, not references (as they are not in fact references), but even that is unnecessary, as those chapters with lodges are already listed comprehensively under Building and Property Ownership. If desired, a new subsection could always be created to list out chapters which are non-residential. WP:DIRECTORY and all that. -- choster (talk) 16:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi choster. I added these addresses for several reasons. From a practical perspective, pages like this can be used for quick confirmation of an address which might be difficult for non-Greeks or non-members to find or recall. Second, a cumulative listing of addresses isn't readily available - Cornell's website allows lookup of locations one at a time, when the name of the group is known, but not on a single page. Finally, the citation of an address is a valuable form of reference, where one exists. Without bloating the content of the visible page, an address reference provides valuable additional information. Perhaps a link to a University portal page (persistent website) would be a good alternative or addition, too. Jax MN (talk) 16:56, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * But I do see the redundancy, in the lower sections referring to the CURP 66 program. The actual list of current and former chapters is more interesting to me, whereas the original page before I made a series of updates several years ago was almost exclusively focused on the housing agreements of 1966. If I was to combine the two, for brevity, I might note the CURP 66 status or private ownership status in a reference against each chapter.  That, and add their historic house name ("The Gables", for example). Jax MN (talk) 17:10, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

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Irving Society
In brief, there had been a previous mild edit war over the descendants of a short-lived (~10 years) literary society in the mid-1800s, the Irving Society. Phi Kappa Psi fraternity had long claimed to be its direct descendant, it having written about this in its chapter history and even naming its operating corporation after the Irving Society, an action that pre-dates the 1966 CURP. The edit war on this main page fizzled out after a few years, leaving in place both the fact of the dormancy of the Irving Society, and the references to it within Phi Kappa Psi's listing. I think that is the reasonable outcome.

Recently I re-ordered the fraternities and sororities to list them by original founding date. Phi Kappa Psi's remains their date of founding as Phi Kappa Psi, and not claiming the earlier date from the Irving Society. Meanwhile, the Irving Society was itself listed among the groups whose Name had Changed, and not as a Dormant group. This was the same wording as used over the past several years, merely shifted to the beginning of the list in order of its founding. Soon after, another editor, mindful of the previous edit war, removed the Irving Society from that list entirely. I think that deletion was unwarranted: the group clearly existed, and therefore would - at worst - be a Dormant group, if not a Names Changed group.

Here's what turns the issue for me: In 2013 a new group formed on campus that exhumed the old name of Irving Literary Society, and existed for maybe a year or two. They claimed intellectual if not direct descent from the 1868 group, even posting new dates of restoration for that Society. They denied Phi Kappa Psi's assertion of parentage via Irving, even though the Phi Kappa Psi group began at the time of the demise of the Irving Society in 1869 (only one year after its own establishment). Hence, I think the latter claim from the 2013 group to be far less compelling than Phi Kappa Psi's, and therefore recommend the inclusion of the Phi Kappa Psi connection. This is even more a moot point because the 2013 edition of the Irving Society fizzled in about 2015.

Should Hlevy2 wish to pursue this, what I think is a rather settled matter, let's discuss here.

The offending citation is below:
 * Irving Society 1868-69, became Phi Kappa Psi

Jewish fraternities at Cornell
Some of the dormant chapters are noted as Jewish. Why did so many close? The answer is nuanced, and thus I thought I'd open a discussion.

Many Jewish themed chapters (locals and national organizations) formed and flourished in the first half of the 20th Century, but consolidated or closed in the decade and a half after WWII. Why the sudden change? The Sanua reference, "Going Greek," provides an extensive discussion on this trend, but the summary is as follows: Exclusively Jewish chapters were popular in the pre-War era to provide cultural bonding, responding to strong rabbinical and family support. Their presence offered Jews visibility on the larger campus at a time when reflexive mistrust of others was common. (I'd wrestled with using the term "mild Antisemitism" but it doesn't convey the correct meaning to today's readers.) The nation's premier colleges and universities were more homogeneous - WASPy - in that period. Far more than today, Catholics grew up insulated from Protestants, Jews similarly led separate lives. Even the various Protestant churches, each with their own sponsored colleges were distant from each other, and therefore wary of each other. While actual, hateful Antisemitism was whipped up from time to time, for the average college-bound student the only form it took was simply wariness due to our not crossing paths nor working with those of other creeds or origins. Hence, the college experience during the pre-War period (WWII) was insular, but the world was getting smaller and all this insularity was about to change. Again, summarizing Sanua, Jewish fraternities and sororities allowed controlled mixing in an era of chaperones: These groups typically socialized with each other for the purpose of dance parties and dating (as did mainstream Greeks among themselves) while more casual mixing with "Gentile" chapters occurred through classes, inter-Greek projects and sports. Sanua points out that incoming Jewish students wanted an experience like the mainstream Greeks, but they (and their sponsors) didn't want to jump into a secular or non-Jewish experience. Jewish-themed or affinity houses were their answer.

WWII brought an abrupt end to this, as at war's end, all Greek societies became more egalitarian, more diverse, and more secular. 'Exclusionary' or 'discriminatory' bans were dropped from the bylaws or "unofficial policies" of Gentile, Jewish and Black organizations. Cornell, Dartmouth and others were on the vanguard of this. As a result, smaller Jewish nationals merged into larger ones. (Nationally, about 3/4 of these groups disappeared in the decades after WWII, some to merger, some to dissolution) - yet Jews continued to join fraternities and sororities enthusiastically. Jewish commentary at the time may have bemoaned the loss of Jewish chapters, but nevertheless there was a strong current of support for post-War inclusion of Jews in the general institutions of society, including fraternities and sororities, as full participants. So in a way, the mission was accomplished: pluralistic inclusion.

For the purpose of this article, former organizations with Jewish roots are noted as such. Active groups, even with noteworthy Jewish heritage are not specifically labeled as "Jewish" except where a group continues to specify Jewish culture as an organizational objective. At Cornell, active groups that began with a Jewish heritage have adjusted to a more general, interfaith or secular model, open to a diverse membership, while proudly acknowledging their roots. Jax MN (talk) 19:17, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Seal and Serpent leaves IFC
As reflected on the Seal wiki and on the IFC website, Seal is no longer a member of the IFC. They however are still active. Wondering which category this would move them to of the ones we have listed. Fraternal Historian (talk) 06:43, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The choices seem to be, to leave them among the active groups listed with the IFC, or to let them fall off the list completely. Similar groups on other campuses have often devolved into simple housing co-ops, often fully disbanding a few years later.  There, they'd reasonably be listed as a dormant (former) fraternity.  Whatever S&S chooses to do in the future, they have been a fraternity. Therefore I'd leave them be, noting "non-caucusing" or something like that.  Jax MN (talk) 12:47, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I would move them out into a "non-affiliated" group for the time being. I don't perceive they aren't operationally so different from a few years ago when they were indisputably a fraternity, other than becoming mixed-gender. There is no stark dividing line between a "fraternity" and other types of student society, particularly the residentials. Various organizations we have listed as locals here are found under "Societies" rather than "Fraternities" in old issues of The Cornellian. Groups like Alpha Zeta come and go from the IFC. Then there are cases like Kappa Alpha Theta, which disaffiliated from its national in 1965 and became what is now the co-op Prospect of Whitby, or Delta Phi, which lost recognition and is thus suspended from the IFC, but purportedly operates sub rosa. -- choster (talk) 22:49, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I note your point, and looked up the coops on campus. While the others seem to have formed ex nihilo, the Prospect of Whitby's history says they formed from the 1964 closure of Alpha Xi Delta. I noted this in the article - nice catch. To the larger point, these Lists have evolved to include Greek societies (fraternities, sororities, honor societies) of all types, their predecessors and their descendants.  At this stage, Serpent may be in its death throes, or may stabilize into a co-op. If so, I don't want to lose their history into the memory hole by taking them out of the fraternity list.  There are a few campuses whose secret societies or literary societies are profiled in separate WP articles. But offhand I don't know of one for Cornell. I thought it would be an example of scope creep to expand the article with a list of these. Jax MN (talk) 13:25, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Cornell being a residential campus with relatively little on-campus housing (by design, historically speaking), it's unsurprising that residential identity is strong. If you look at the 1949 yearbook or the Cornell Alumni News from that era, for example, "fraternity" and men's "residential association" (selective and cooperative but non-secret) are often lumped together without comment, and several of the men's co-ops and the (Men's) Cosmopolitan Club sent delegates to the IFC. The sort of "anti-frat" character of the present-day co-ops, like calling their intake process "mosey" instead of "rush," is something more prominently cultivated since the 1960s, though houses like Telluride have always been careful to distinguish themselves from the social Greek system. I might put a sentence or two indicating that houses like Cayuga Lodge were historically sometimes grouped with fraternities, but did not necessarily consider themselves as such.-- choster (talk) 15:01, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Prospect of Whitby
It seems @JaxMN added a mention Prospect of Whitby, now a mixed-gender co-op, originating as Cornell's Alpha Xi Delta chapter, which disaffiliated from its national over discriminatory membership policies. @Cornell2010 then removed this as incorrect. It is not disputed that they originated as a sorority, or that their current residence, 228 Wait Ave, served as the AXiD house for a time. A 1966 Sun article (and a personal) and a Corey Earle tweet identify the predecessor as Kappa Alpha Theta, which had also been my understanding, but the Prospect of Whitby website (or the one linked from its Facebook page) asserts AXiD and not Theta. Neither chapter is indicated in the FCS profile. The Cornellian is copyrighted and issues from the 1960s are not available freely online, and I have not turned up any other reliable sources. -- choster (talk) 18:30, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I found it: "Theta to Occupy 228 Wait" CDS 17 March 1965. This clearly indicates that the former sisters of Theta acquired 228 Wait, the former AXiD house, and moved there in 1965. "The former members of Kappa Alpha Theta sorority announced definite plans last night to take new members for the coming year. According to a statement released last night by the group, the former sorority will become 'an association built around a small living unit.' The association, which has no formal name as yet, will be located at 228 Wait Aye., at least for next year. The group is presently located at 118 Triphammer Road in a house owned by a corporation of local Theta alumni. University efforts to buy the Triphammer house for the group have so far been thwarted by red tape and the corporation's inability to decide what to do with the house." -- choster (talk) 18:35, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * A November 11, 1969 column characterizes it as "a cross between a sorority and a cooperative located at 228 Wait Ave. Formerly the Iota chapter of Kappa Alpha Theta, it became a local as a result of a dispute with the national over discriminatory rushing." But they received approval to go co-ed for fall 1970 onwards. -- choster (talk) 18:48, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Nayati
Is there a stronger source to confirm that Nayati (1907–1919) was the continuation of Omega Pi Alpha, and/or the predecessor to Delta Sigma Phi? As DSP never reorganized at Cornell after World War II, their digital footprint is rather light. The 1907 Cornellian records "Omega Pi Alpha founds a chapter at Cornell" on April 21, 1906, and the Almanac identifies this as the Zeta chapter of the short-lived national, not a local. It elsewhere cites it as the immediate predecessor to Theta of DSP. The August 1908 issue of the Cornell Alumni News indicates that a chapter of Delta Sigma Phi had filed incorporation papers with the county clerk. There is no mention of Nayati, which is attested as still independent in the 1910 Cornellian, for example. The July 1919 Cornell Alumni News indicates that Nayati disbanded on account of World War I, selling their house to Phi Epsilon Pi; the February 13, 1941 issue states the group "became inactive in 1917 after ten years on the Campus," and the September 25 issue says they disbanded in 1919, donating their library and $2000 in remaining cash to the university. So even if DSP absorbed the remnants of Nayati, it does not seem that they were considered a successor organization in the way that Bandhu indisputably became Phi Delta Sigma, or Amphia indisputably became Theta Chi.-- choster (talk) 18:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi . I have a copy of Baird's 20th.  On page VIII-12, under the Omega Pi Alpha listing, it says:

''OMEGA PI ALPHA was organized as a men's fraternity at the College of the City of New York on January 1, 1901. It quickly established chapters at Columbia University, University of Pennsylvania, Lehigh University, Rutgers College, and Cornell University. All of these chapters except the parent one became inactive in 1907. The Cornell chapter became a local and assumed the name of Nayati which existed for some time thereafter. ''
 * This I think this answers your first question, on the continuation of Omega Pi Alpha.
 * As to the second issue, of Delta Sigma Phi, the Baird's Archive online can share some light on this. It appears that there may have been a consolidation INTO Nayati, and not FROM Nayati See the Cornell section of this page, and look for Delta Sigma Phi on the right column. To get to the bottom of it we'd have to review online issues of the Cornellian for these years, to see if member lists of the two groups showed some members switching chapters.  Either in 1907 ('08) or later. Yearbook mentions of Nayati peter out in about 1918 or '19.  Jax MN (talk) 22:03, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, that sounds good on the OPA connection. I went back to the Daily Sun archives and found only two references to Delta Sigma Phi prior to 1923, one from 1908 and another from 1914, either or both of which could be errors. They do not appear in The Cornellian until 1925. The last references to Nayati in senior profiles are for the class of 1920, in the 1920 Cornellian. So the origins of DSP remains a mystery to me, and none of the dates in either Baird's or the Almanac make any sense to me.-- choster (talk) 23:46, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Reading the Baird's Archive can be somewhat cryptic. But what I surmise is that an early attempt by Delta Sigma Phi, according to Baird's, would indicate that a weak colony joined with a weak Nayati chapter in an attempt to stabilize.  --Probably due to the disruption of WWI. Baird's 20th (the book) says that Delta Sigma Phi existed from 1907 to 1943: this lines up with the formation of Nayati in 1907, when that chapter became an independent local after only having been created in 1905 as part of Omega Pi Alpha.  But the next line (Baird's archive) says that Delta Sigma Phi was dormant between 1910 to 1932.  Those Baird's references typically defer to the nationals as being primary to any local identity: so it would naturally call it a Delta Sigma Phi chapter versus just saying it was Nayati all the way through from 1907 to ~1920.  Yet I do note that Baird's archive says Nayati existed all that time.  Hence, Baird's has both listings, co-existing. Jax MN (talk) 00:42, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * All this said, this is why I left the main article reading as it did, as I think the evidence shows more likelihood of a connection between Nayati and DSP than not. Jax MN (talk) 00:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)