Talk:List of DC Multiverse worlds/Archive 1

Protected
I've protected the page for one week. I've based this on the edit history over the last couple of days, it seems to me an edit war is brewing. There's been some discussion on this talk page, it might be better to continue here rather than hammer out at the talk page. I don't want to see the article become a battleground. Let me know if the page can be unprotected before the week is up. Hiding T 18:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

How many Earth S (Shazam)s are there?
I have to point out a problem with the description of Earth S (for Shazam) in the table. The Earth S that Earth One characters interacted with on various occasions is not what was seen in most issues of DC's 70s Shazam book, which itself might be the one of the old Fawcett comics. In #34 (out of 35 issues), the DC series was overhauled and depicted a more serious and realistic world than before, with the various Marvels' civilian identities being secret, which they hadn't been--Billy Batson had had a habit of saying "Shazam!" in public. This Earth was also seen in a run in World's Finest and the first two digest format issues of Adventure Comics, as well as a three-part JLA/JSA crossover in 1976, which brought together several other Fawcett heroes as the Shazam Squadron of Justice (JLA #s 133-135; this, by the way, is also where the Earth Two version of Atlantis was established as being the one from GA Wonder Woman stories, although I can't tell from the GCD indexes just which of the three issues did it; E-2's WW is listed in only the last, so that might be the one), and two Superman/Marvel team-ups, one in a tabloid and one in DC Comics Presents. I'm not sure if there are any problems with the Fawcett version and DC's first Shazam run's version of the Marvels' world. There is the fact that Earth One's Lex Luthor travelled into that early-to-mid-70s Shazam book, so there would seem to have been at least two Captain Marvel-based universes "actually" in the DC Multiverse. In any event, the description of Earth S in the table is no less than oversimplified. Ted Watson (talk) 21:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * IIRC, DC editorial never went to the trouble of splitting the stories up. Everything DC did with the character when it was under license was lumped into one continuity. Even when DC chucked the multiverse, none of the reference works or comments went "The stories from "X" issues were on Earth-S1, from "Y" issues Earth-S2, and so on.". For purposes of this article, and a potential Earth-S article, we don't get to parse it. If DC never addressed it, and it isn't put forward in a secondary source, then trying to split it up boils down to OR. - J Greb (talk) 22:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * To be clear, the Earth-Two stories were never really the Golden Age stories either. Superman quickly changed to "The Daily Planet", etc, whereas other features that defined the Earth-Two Superman didn't appear until later.  So if there was a difference between the original Captain Marvel stories and Earth-S it isn't unusual or worth noting, really.
 * Duggy 1138 (talk) 05:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Forum post purportedly by a DC artist
I removed a purported statement by Jamal Igle about part of the multiverse, because the source was unacceptable: a forum post in which someone claiming to be Igle made a comment.

In general, such comments are not in any way acceptably sourced. It's been restored. I'd appreciate if the person who restored it would reconnsider. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 13:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

New earth IS earth one.
See tangent issue 1. -- Fredrick day 12:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If it says that, it's in error. DC has repeatedly and explicitly said that New Earth is not the new Earth-1. Wryspy (talk) 22:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, seems they have changed their minds - (obviously we will need a better source for the article) - Jamal Y. Igle one of the art team on the series has commented: he said, No I said that I didn't think it was a mistake, and I'm the penciler for the bulk of the series, Issues 2 -12 . Since I'm pencilling issue 4 right now, I've got the inside track. which was quickly followed by Ok just so that this can be cleared up, I talked to my editor. New Earth ..........Is Earth 1. -- Fredrick day 22:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * We're not in any hurry, want to wait for anything more definitive before fools rush in where angels fear to tread?~ZytheTalk to me! 00:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Someone want to update this table? Tangent issue 2 came out - Flash and Green Lantern are explicitly labelled as being from Earth-1 - whatever the original plans, DC has clearly changed it's mind. --87.113.67.142 (talk) 07:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * DC has changed their mind or someone at DC has made a mistake. Either way, unless there is an official statement, I think the initial claim remains valid. Duggy 1138 (talk) 02:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe the familar characters come from Earth-1, rather than New Earth, which would explain why Igle says that Nacho Castro says that the story starts on Earth-1 not New Earth. Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Who said they were from Earth-1? If another character said it, the character could be wrong. Wryspy (talk) 06:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, thankfully that's been cleared up and was just an error in Tangent. Duggy 1138 (talk) 03:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Dan DiDio himself has now confirmed that New Earth and Earth-1 are NOT the same. Here's a link: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17827 And the quote: "“Our Earth, New Earth is not Earth-1. We’ve pretty well explained that as much as possible. As of right now, I can tell you there is no Earth-1.” I think the article needs to be changed to reflect this. 71.12.177.7 (talk) 08:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

NIghtblade
Nightblade one of the New Bloods from the Blood Pack is one of the characters seen in Limbo. --68.81.70.65 (talk) 23:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Earth-C (pre-Crisis) and Earth 26 (post 52)
The Captain Carrot and the Final Ark series indicates that this is not a new Earth, Earth-C and Earth 26 are the same Earth.--RedKnight (talk) 00:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * How, exactly, does it indicate this? Is it implied or stated outright? Duggy 1138 (talk) 01:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Can they not simply have the same exact history?~ZytheTalk to me! 09:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The Captain Carrot and the Final Ark is refered to as Earth-26 on the cover, but the inhabitants refer to their world as Earth-C within the story. Pretty clear to me. --RedKnight (talk) 23:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe
Would the Universe in question take place in any of the current Multiverse Universes? As it merged with an alternate MK Universe, between MK2 and MK3... If it helps, in Batman's ending, the events preceding MK vs DCU led to the developement of OMAC in this DC Universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.163.80.205 (talk) 05:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Speculation..
There seems to be a lot of unsourced speculation being added and readded to some of the 52 worlds. Duggy 1138 (talk) 02:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, there's too damn many cite requests where clicking on an adjacent link either in the same sentence or the cell to the right goes to information that justifies and validates the data. People need to *THINK* and do a little fact checking of their own rather than just slap on a snotty cite demand and walk away. I'm tempted to go remove some of these myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.148.162 (talk) 07:41, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Earth Kindle?
Where does this name come from? And should it not be under 'unclassified' rather than 'the 52'. Actually, is there an element of WP:CRYSTAL and/or WP:OR/WP:SYNTH in its inclusion altogether?Number36 (talk) 22:48, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I've removed it from the article for the second time now. I haven't been able to find any reference to it anywhere. If there is a new universe after Flashpoint we have to wait for an official confirmation until it can be included on here. – Zntrip 01:00, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That is what I thought. There was the possibility I'd missed something though, since that doesn't appear to be the case it should certainly not be here as you say.Number36 (talk) 07:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Earth 23
Earth 23 was added to the post 52 multiverse, but it is part of a multiverse with at least 161 worlds. Therefor, wouldn't that be enough proof that it doesn't belong there. The Wildstorm universe was Earth...400 something in its own multiverse, and the number in the primary list was 50. So they are not necessarily the same thing. LMaster562 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.251.99.239 (talk) 06:04, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Part of the issue here is point of view. Most would consider their reality the first and others otherwise.  For example, Barry Allan named Earth-One and Earth-Two giving his "secondary" reality a "top billing" status.  It could be argued that all realitities are numbered from a prime reality perspective. --70.51.64.204 (talk) 18:25, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Classifications
It is odd that anything that does not fit the 52 automatically becomes pre-Crisis. For example, Earth 23 from Batman Brave and the Bold should not be pre-Crisis but simply not part of the main DC Multiverse. Parhaps part of a DC Megaverse. --70.51.64.204 (talk) 18:28, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

table cleanup
Can we lose the 'era' column in "The 52"'s table?

It doesn't add to the content of the table, since 51 of the 52 values are the same. There should be more detailed articles on each earth, and the notes sections should be two lines at most. Too much scrolling is required now.

52 Table
It's pretty much a mess. Too much information is being forced into the cells. I think we need to get rid of some of the information, but I'm not sure how much can go.

Duggy 1138 (talk) 23:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * To be honest, that was somewhere on my list of "side projects to do"... shortly after coming back and finishing a clean up of the referrences... - J Greb (talk) 23:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Bits can obviously be removed, but not enough to solve the problem.
 * The only solution I can see is making the table just the bare bones and have yet-another article which has a section on each of the worlds... however, that seems a bit like we're making too many pages.
 * Any other ideas?
 * Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Off the hop?
 * Removal of trivia. Like "Its Monitor has been nicknamed 'Bob.'" for New Earth.
 * Compacting "Inhabitants" and "Notes" into one field covering "Motif and publication notes".
 * Reducing the list of resident characters. A few should be enough to give the flavor of the universe.
 * Remove the "Cameo" distinction. If a universe first explicitly appears in a cameo, so be it. That is the first appearance. I'd also go with a universe first appearing when its Monitor is actively presented.
 * Reduce the plot point stuff. Some of the things cropping up belong in the Countdown or Countdown: Arena articles, if even there.
 * - J Greb (talk) 01:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "Bits can obviously be removed, but not enough to solve the problem."
 * Duggy 1138 (talk) 01:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm playing with a new page here. Does it work or not?
 * Duggy 1138 (talk) 00:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No... I think that would wind up worse than the table. - J Greb (talk) 01:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Worse in that it can get out of control? It certainly can.
 * Worse in that it will be as unreadable? I don't think so.
 * The benefit I'm seeing is that it gives the ability to link to a specific Earth (from, say, a character page, so you can have a link to the world the the new SHAZAM family Green Lantern comes from.
 * It also gives a starting point for if any of these worlds grow to need/deserve their own article...
 * However, as I said when I first suggested it, I'm not sure it's completely a good idea.
 * Duggy 1138 (talk) 01:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok... drop back and take a hard look at what this list page overall is doing. It's trying, with varying degrees of success, to nutshell the various universes from three distinct time frames in the DCU. Tables are very good for that since they are supposed to be based on minimal information.
 * The "52" section is breaking down because editors are trying to pour everything into the table, not just the important stuff. That's creating bloated cells.
 * The prose list you're suggesting works best when there's a lot of important stuff to cover for each entry. Right now only a handful, at best, of the universes have enough information to justify that type of listing. And even with those there are other places fo the material to be addressed, especially if it's going to be plot summary.
 * And then there's the fan field day you'd create setting up the "Appearances" and "Inhabitants" lists. Neither of which have a real place here.
 * - J Greb (talk) 01:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Not only are people trying to put everything into the cells on this page, but some of the older stuff that was put in because, at the time, there was no other information is being left in.
 * I think the spin-off page would absorb a lot of the stuff being poured into this table, but I don't think that that page should be thought of in terms of what this page is or isn't meant to do.
 * Yes, there is a fan-crud disaster waiting to happen with the 52verse page, but there are enough sensible editor around the comics pages to keep a cap on it...
 * Plus, if it goes completely off the rails, I'll nominate it for deletion if it has to be done.
 * Duggy 1138 (talk) 01:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I was mulling a bit on some of what got crammed in... some of the waffling notes, as well as the teases should have gone into the preface or a following paragraph. Discussion about the new multiverse as a whole, not the specific aspects. - J Greb (talk) 02:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Doesn't look like this is going to be easy.
 * Duggy 1138 (talk) 21:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the article is skewed towards "is home to A, B, C. D, E and also in issue #XXX F appeared, and will appear again in #XXY. What we need is for example, Earth=8 is home of the Extremists, its characters are based on the this lot, this lot and this lot from pre-Crisis material. Or, Earth-10 is based off of Earth-X, and Grant Morrison has said that... and leave it. Isn't there a DC Database project for the fancrufty stuff? ~ZytheTalk to me! 22:20, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "Is home to", and "first appeared in" are the important things. Certainly, only important characters should be mentioned.  With the Extremists, yes, it's based on the Champions of Angor, and the section says that.  Earth-10 is based on Earth-X, yes.  But importantly, it has the addition of the JLAxis.  And Grant Morrison has said what?  If it's "these aren't the same as the originals" then yeah, that needs to be said in the introduction, but not in the table, because it applies to at least 50% of the cells.
 * If there's too much fancruddy stuff, get rid of that stuff...
 * Duggy 1138 (talk) 22:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The Table still isn't working. It's great for a summary, but not for fully fledged universes. Shame people couldn't have seen this problem coming and done something about it. Duggy 1138 (talk) 09:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Antimatter Universe
The Antimatter Universe is mentioned three times in this article. Unlike the other universes, the Antimatter universe is essentially the same place. Should we create another section for this? Ccm043 (talk) 15:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No, because the Antimatter Universe has effectively rebooted twice if not three times so the Pre-Crisis antimatter universe is not the same thing as the Post-Crisis (Which had a Crime Syndicate of Qward who were implied to have played the roles the old Pre-Crisis Earth-3 versions did), Post-Zero Hour (Crime Syndicate of Amerika), or post JLA/Avengers crossover (slightly different history for the Crime Syndicate of Amerika and anti-matter universe).--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Earth-Two vs 40s Golden Age Comics published by DC.
We have the picture in 52 week 52, which resembles the 80s Earth-Two, not the forties. We have an older Jay Garrick in Countdown: Arena.

None of that resembles the 40s Golden Age (as published by DC).

Duggy 1138 (talk) 02:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Artistic licence is something to be aware of. The same thing the Arena artist cited re the "Doctor Manhattan" that showed up.
 * Guessing about which sets of stories are part of the histories of the 52 without explicit statements from the editors and writers, the people that set the ground rules for the new multiverse, is OR.
 * Using the visuals, keeping in mind 1 above is even worse OR.
 * - J Greb (talk) 04:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Golden Age of Comics is a link to the Golden Age of comics... not the Golden Age of DC comics and as such is meaningless to Earth-Two.
 * Duggy 1138 (talk) 21:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think No original research is going to have to come to bear here. Please review the section on utilising primary source, specifically that * To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should:


 * only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
 * make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source.
 * Since the two of you have differing interpretations, I think it is safe to assume they are interpretive claims and also that specialist knowledge is now coming into play. On that basis I have removed the contentious phrasing. Hiding T 21:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. - J Greb (talk) 21:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well strictly speaking Earth-2 never was the Golden Age DC comics. For example,  The Daily Planet was first used in Superman #4 (Spring 1940) with Perry White becoming editor in Superman #7 (December 1940) and Luthor went bald in Superman #10 (June 1941).  Then you have the "super muscular control" power that the Golden Age Superman had up to 1948 but the Earth-2 never had.  It is a nice notion but it is not supported by the facts.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what I was trying to say... only not as clearly.
 * Duggy 1138 (talk) 13:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but I went and found a reference to primary sources that showed beyond any doubt that Earth-2 is NOT the Golden Age of DC comics but a sort of as we wish it had been.--BruceGrubb (talk) 13:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Limbo
It seems highly probable that the Limbo which appears in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1 is the same as the Limbo which appears in Animal Man #25. Both comics were written by Grant Morrison and both feature Merryman of the Inferior Five prominently. The only argument I can see against listing Animal Man #25 as the first appearance of Limbo is the notion that everything is different after Final Crisis — but then, this dimension is outside all continuity, because it's where characters go when they're forgotten. How should the page list it? Should Animal Man #25 be listed as its first appearance? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I just checked Animal Man #25 and saw that the Limbo in that comic, like the one in Superman Beyond, contains an archway with the inscription "FACILIS DISCENUS AVERNO" ("the road to Hell is easy"). That looks like confirmation enough to me — I'm going to change the entry (with a footnote). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Earth 6
According to Superman Beyond, Earth 6 is an analog of the Marvel Universe, we can see two panels depicting both Civil War and Secret Invasion. --68.81.70.65 (talk) 22:19, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I see what you're talking about, but I'm concerned that unless some reliable source has noticed the same thing it would be original research to point the parallel out here. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Earth 0
I don't have the comic on me right now, but in Superman Beyond New Earth as referred by Villo Zalla as 'Universe Designate Zero' or something like that. That would mean the earths are numbered 0-51. - Conniption (talk) 13:07, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * And I would assume Morrison knows more about the number structure than Ingle.~ZytheTalk to me! 14:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Monitors' World, and others
In Final Crisis (and, more specifically, Final Crisis: Superman Beyond), the Monitors are shown to reside outside of the 52 worlds, beyond even Limbo. The red bar that immediately precedes the Antimatter Universe effectively separates the "52 Proper", as I call them, from other universes that are associated with, but not technically part of, the 52; should the Monitors' world get an entry there?

Likewise, the Bleed: although it isn't technically a place, we have seen heroes hide out in it; Countdown: Arena took place almost entirely within the Bleed; Captain Atom and Ion fought off creatures that appear to inhabit it; and so on. Should the Bleed be given an entry?

If so, I'd be inclined to organize the 52-related worlds as such: Anti-Matter Universe, Bleed, Limbo, Monitors' world. --99.162.88.253 (talk) 05:42, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

DCUO
DCUO came out the same year as new 52, so wouldn't it's universe go here? I know it's a few months off but it either goes in 52 or new 52(or both) right?... 142.136.169.18 (talk) 00:37, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Too much information from which a lot is speculated
I removed this link from the Multiverse (Marvel Comics) page. http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/time_links.html. After a good reading I realized it is a fan attempt to summarize the universes in the Omniverse, not just DC, Marvel and some others as well as characters from legends, folklore  and literature. Much of the information is speculated (it is stated in the page itself) and some "timelines" seem to be fan-fiction. Some of that info appears in the List of DC Multiverse worlds, which is awfully extensive and includes worlds not officially listed within the 52 (which spans over 60 worlds in the list) and The New 52 (which has many "unknown" entries). In addition, there's also an unclassified section including many speculated universes (such as Post-Crisis Earth/Earth Sigma and the soviet versions). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.141.137.95 (talk) 00:56, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Earth-12 of the New 52 starts in Batman Beyond Unlimited which takes place in DCAU, so DCAU=Earth-12 of the New 52?
If this is true, what place do the other worlds appearing in the TV show have in the New 52? Other TV show universes also belong now to the New 52 now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.180.114.247 (talk) 19:34, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Earth-One vs. Earth-1
The distinction between the designations “1” and “One” is strictly a fan invention used to distinguish between the original Multiverse’s labeling system and the post-52 Multiverse’s numbering system, based on the observation that the pre-Crisis stories tended to spell the numbers out as words while the post-52 stories tend to use the numerals. However, these are no more than tendencies: DC has Been inconsistent on both frons, with Crisis on Infinite Earths using numerals and the occasional post-52 designation spelling the number out. As such, “Earth-1 (a.k.a. Earth-One)” is a redundancy, and the “a.k.a.” should be removed. --Dataweaver (talk) 00:01, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

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NBC's Constantine exists on Earth-1
I'm starting this talk section to address NBC's Constantine and its official place within the Arrowverse since the edit I made mentioning this fact was reverted.

As I noted in my reversion of the reversion, both Marc Guggenheim and Wendy Mericle have confirmed that Matt Ryan's guest appearance on Arrow retroactively incorporated the events of the NBC Constantine series into official Arrowverse Canon, meaning that John, Chaz, Zeb, Lucy, Manny, Papa Midnite, etc. all officially exist on Earth-1.DigificWriter (talk) 06:10, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * No it hasn't. See further indepth discussions at Talk:List of Arrowverse actors and Talk:Arrowverse. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:19, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, it has. If a flat-out unequivocal statement from both Marc Guggenheim and Wendy Mericle isn't enough confirmation, what more do you people need? This isn't even worth debating because it's not a debate; it's been unequivocally settled by direct statements from both Guggenheim and Mericle. NBC's Constantine DOES occupy "Earth-1" of the Arrowverse, and that fact should be acknowledged here.DigificWriter (talk) 18:05, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * See the listed discussions. It hasn't clear cut been confirmed. The character appears yes, the series is not entirely confirmed. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:43, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

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Addition of The DC Extended Universe
It is confirmed that the DCEU is a part of a section in the DC Multiverse with the Arrowverse. Should that world be listed with the Arrowverse section, and have the section renamed to Arrowverse/DCEU? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Batman3095 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

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Earth-1289
In the Comics Revue article, it says that the Absolute edition of Crisis on Infinite Earths states that the Batman comic strip stories take place on Earth-1289. Can anyone verify this and if so should this be mentioned in this article? --GentlemanGhost (talk) 08:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes this earth is described in the list of some 100+ earths in Crisis On Infinite Earths: Absolute Edition (2006)--2606:A000:7D44:100:E080:CE37:B8D6:58ED (talk) 12:17, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

The New 52 list is speculated
Officially, only the publications bearing the "The New 52!" mark, take place in the New 52 Multiverse. Other current publications such as Batman '66, Batman Beyond Universe, Smallville Season 11 and the Vertigo publications DO NOT bear the "The New 52!" mark. Ergo, these and others must not be included in the list until an official statement or publication from DC says otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.217.189.95 (talk) 22:57, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


 * DC seams to have thrown out the whole "The New 52!" idea with the Convergence (comics) series which with issue #8 retroactively reinstated the Pre-Crisis DC multiverse.  What is left unclear is how "The New 52!"  multiverse fits into the restored Pre-Crisis DC multiverse framework.--2606:A000:7D44:100:E080:CE37:B8D6:58ED (talk) 12:26, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Proper 1st appearances (Earth-X; Earth-Quality)
Hi folks- what criteria is being used for the "First Appearance" column?
 * 1st appearance of the continuity used by DC?
 * 1st appearance of any of the original publisher's continuity?
 * 1st appearance of any character associated with the entire vague concept?

For at least Earth-X and Earth-Quality, it's hard to figure. To explain:


 * Earth-X uses a specific set of Quality Comics-derived superheroes (not including Plastic Man and Blackhawk, who were integrated directly into DC's 1960s/1970s publications). But the main distinguishing characteristic of Earth-X is that the Nazis won World War II, which was never a part of the original Quality continuity (they continued publishing superheroes into the late 1940s).
 * Based on this major difference, I'd say that Earth-X only first appeared when the Nazi-dominated version appeared in Justice League of America #107-108 (1973)
 * Earth-Quality appears to have a pretty thin rationale for having ever existed, but seems to just be a similarly Quality-derived earth but minus the victorious Nazis angle.

Earth-X is listed as first appearing in The Comics Magazine #1 (1936). The only way I can see for justifying this is by the following chain:


 * Quality Comics began publishing George Brenner's The Clock in Feature Funnies #3 (the publisher's 3rd issue).
 * The Comics Magazine Company was the first to publish The Clock, in either Funny Picture Stories #7 or Funny Pages #1, depending on which hit the stands first- they were published in the same month.
 * The Comics Magazine #1 was the first publication of The Comics Magazine Company, although the company never had any real continuity outside of what each feature possessed, and their only other masked/super hero was a one-off appearance of a story the publishers acquired from DC's predecessor National Allied when they left.

However, aside from Brenner continuing the Clock when he moved to Quality, there was no other editorial/creative connection between Quality and the Comics Magazine Company (CMCo's assets were bought by Ultem which was then bought by Centaur Publications, who reprinted much of CMCo's inventory).

As far as I know, DC never used or mentioned The Clock until James Robinson's Starman, well after Crisis on Infinite Earths, so he's not a good starting point for Earth-X or Earth-Quality. I've already stated my case on Earth-X, and for Earth-Quality I'd argue that either the first Quality publication (Feature Funnies #1) or the first appearance of Doll Man (Feature Comics #27), who actually appeared in DC's pre-Crisis stories, seem better.

Comments? Ixat totep (talk) 01:20, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * In a lot of ways this list, and by exertion the "Character Foo of Earth-Ω" first appearances, drive me nuts.
 * A lot of the designations are fan derived and a lot of the first appearance are based on fan theory or fan consensus.
 * Prior to "Flash of Two-Worlds" DC's comics had the odd parallel-Earth story but never a recurring systematic multiverse. Between 1961 and 1963 DC published stories naming Earth-1 and Earth-2 as well as describing the relationship between them. Part of that was assigning characters to one Earth or the other. With most of the Golden Age characters DC owned at the time and assigned to Earth-2, there isn't an issue - for all intents the Golden Age character and the post-FTW ones are the same. It's saying that Earth-2 and its Batman, Superman, etc all first appeared in the late 30s or early 40s that things go sideways. The Earth-2 versions of those characters first appeared after FTW to fill continuity holes.
 * Earth-Quality/Earth-X and the related characters have the same problems. DC continued Blackhawks after they bought Quality's characters in 1953. Plastic Man was revived in the 60s. And Earth-X was first presented in 1973 with most of the pre-1953 charters and most of their histories assigned to it. As noted, the premise of Earth-X ignored Quality's output from 1944 through 1953.
 * - J Greb (talk) 02:22, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I love lists and charts as much as the next geek, but if we're going to have lists of "first appearances", I'd rather have it based on the first appearance of the *concept* (in this case, a specific earth within DC), not the first appearance of some character or publisher related to the concept. When Quality started publishing, they had no intention of being National/DC's "Earth-anything".


 * This is basically how the Grand Comics Database handles indexing variant reality characters who previously appeared as the "regular" reality characters in some context. See Indexing Variant Characters (full disclosure: I wrote those rules and got them through the approval process).


 * Ixat totep (talk) 00:12, 23 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Crisis on Infinite Earths: Absolute Edition (November 2005) solves most of these issues as it states the first appearance of the earth's it lists. For example, Earth-X is listed as first appearing Justice League of America Vol 1 #107 (October 1973).
 * That said there are a few problems with the Absolute Edition
 * 1) it doesn't list all of the Earths that appeared in The Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Crossover Index and The Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Index (For example, Alternative Earth-2, Crossover Earth, and Earth-Quality are not listed)
 * 2) The Absolute Edition came out about a month before the first issue of Infinite Crisis so it doesn't formally identify any of the Earths that appear in that series
 * 3) The Earth-B2 listing refers back to a nonexistent reference in the index.--2606:A000:7D44:100:2495:D84A:F84A:9D3A (talk) 00:49, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

The cited material...
Can we cut the stuff that is structly fan spec and/or only supported by fan posts to forums? Case in point: Earth-1A is solely supported by a pair of fan posts on the Toonzone forum. - J Greb 15:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Then away it should go. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  15:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Earth 1A has no support other than fan support. Why is this acceptable? Ccm043 (talk) 01:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Magic-World was an alternate world which looked like Earth in the first series of Justice League of America. As such it should be considered an alternate Earth. Also the Merlin from this world gave them a crystal ball which allowed the JLA to communicate with the Justice Society of America. (Username: Doc Nero, User ID: 607107) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doc Nero (talk • contribs) 20:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the references regarding Countdown: Arena are messed up, refering to the wrong issue number for first appearances and such. It's like whoever wrote them wasn't even double-checking the issues. Chris411 (talk) 19:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I would like to say even when you can find reference material it can conflict with each other. Take Earth-154 as a prime example,  It was called Earth-E by Mark Gruenwald in Omniverse #1, 1977 but The Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Index and Official Crisis on Infinite Earths Crossover Index called this Earth-2A and Alternate Earth-2 respectively.  So what name do we use for this thing?  A similar problem is that Earth-86 was an possible future timeline for Earth-1 as shown in "Costume, Costume, who has the Costume?" (Superman #295 (1976)) and therefor contained an Oa something parallel Earths in the Pre-Crisis DCU could not.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The world of the Super-Sons was not mentioned at all in either index. I don't know where you got that information from. 110.174.166.224 (talk) 03:02, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Obviously from a faulty memory of the Crisis On Infinite Earths: Absolute Edition.--2606:A000:7D44:100:3572:212D:76EC:9861 (talk) 01:23, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Info on Worlds 0, 13, 17, 19, 43, and 44
With the announcement of DC's Infinite Crisis game, they gave info on the worlds listed above. Some of these should probably be added to the new52 section (By the discription of Earth-0, I'm assuming this is new-52 relevant). Here's the link to the page where they are described. http://www.infinitecrisis.com/en/content/core-infinite-crisis-universes (67.190.85.25 (talk) 18:43, 26 March 2013 (UTC))
 * That page sounds more like it's describing post-Infinite Crisis, pre-Flashpoint worlds. Is this game in pre-Flashpoint continuity? Better make sure. Wanderer32 (talk) 06:31, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Convergence made the distinction moot because as Jeff Jing stated in an interview "Post-Convergence, every character that ever existed, in either Continuity or Canon, is now available to us as storytellers." This means you have the Pre-Crisis multiverse, the 52 multiverse and post-Flashpoint multiverse all coexisting.  Given this would result in three different version of many Pre-Crisis Earths clearly all those Earths exist post-Convergence but the destinations have changed.2606:A000:7D44:100:3572:212D:76EC:9861 (talk) 01:33, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

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Arrowverse
I think the section should be renamed, because readers may misinterpret the term "Arrowverse" as meaning a multiverse that also includes shows outside the actual Arrowverse (the universe of Arrow, Flash, Legends and Vixen) such as Supergirl and Powerless. , what do you say? Kailash29792 (talk) 06:25, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean in the heading title, but I don't believe it would be correct to include say Powerless or Gotham in the established table because it has not been confirmed or revealed that the earth these series exist on exists in the DC Multiverse that also has the Arrowverse, if that makes sense. The Powerless prose was added because it was explicit verification that the earth is not within this Multiverse established by Arrow and related shows. It would be the same thing as trying to say the comics New 52 multiverse has the Arrowverse in its multiverse, which it doesn't. They are two separate multiverses. I hope that made sense. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:09, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh I get it; you're saying there isn't a single multiverse encompassing several discrete universes, but each group of universes forms a multiverse. So the Arrowverse and Earth-38 are two separate universes set within the same unnamed multiverse which Earth-Gotham and Earth-P are not part of, right? But if Barry or Cisco ever get to those Earths "accidentally" (you'll understand if you saw "Dead or Alive"), then will those Earths be considered part of the Arrowverse/Earth-38 multiverse? Kailash29792 (talk)  18:26, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Yup. That's exactly what I'm saying. The same way that the Multiverse explored on Smallville (as far as we know) is not within the Arrowverse/Earth-38 multiverse. So, as you said, if at some point in the real world, producers indicate that Earth-P or Earth-Gotham exist for Grant Gustin Barry Allen to travel to, then it can be added to the table. But I do understand the potential confusion in naming the section Arrowverse, implying the name is a multiverse when it really only means Earth-1. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:41, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

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On Earth-Two-A and Earth-One.
So, every Superman newspaper strip before #259, every Action Comics issue before #23, (except #2,) and every Superman issue before #4 had Clark Kent listed as working for the Daily Star. Every issue from each of these lines from the issues I listed on, (including the Golden Age stories, and not just a few of them,) have it changed to the Daily Planet. In Superman #7 the Daily Planet's editor changes from George Taylor to Perry White, and though they don't acknowledge the management's been changed, they immediately seem miffed by the new management.

I would argue that every single issue of those three lines from the issues I liated on, until the beginning of Earth-One, are all part of Earth-Two-A and Earth-Two has effectively ended at those points. Also, could the world where Clark works for the Cleveland Evening News, (Action Comics #2,) be an Earth-Two-B?

Now, here's the thing. I don't think Earth-One even starts until later. I think it starts with Superboy #2. The reason I say this is because until then Superboy is growing up in a suburb of Metropolis, (not Smallville,) which one could infer as being Midvale I guess. However, once it is changed to Smallville, the Superman story as we know it officially begins. You know, the one most common folk associated with Superman.

Basicqlly I think with More Fun Comics #101, Earth-Two-A's storyline was still going on, and would continue until when Superboy #2 came out.

Just saying

--- M260.

Sources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallville_(comics) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Star_(DC_Comics) — Preceding unsigned comment added by POKEMONMASTER260 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 20 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Things are even more of a mess then the above as Who's Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe #2 states that Detective Comics #327 (May, 1964) was the first appearance of the Earth-One Batman. More over Convergence #0 states that Detective Comics #327 is the first appearance of "Pre-Crisis Earth-One Gotham City" so Earth-One as far as Batman is considered didn't exist until May, 1964.  Which leaves the nasty question of what Earth the Batman that appeared before that issue belonged to because it sure wasn't Earth-One.


 * Worse yet Convergence #0 also states that the first appearance of "Pre-Crisis Earth-Two Metropolis" was in The Flash #123 (Sept 1961) but Metropolis doesn't appear in that comic...only Earth-Two's Keystone City does. This means that what ever Earth the Golden Age stories occurred on it was NOT Earth-Two.


 * If this wasn't enough The Official Crisis Cross-over Index not only list Earth-Twelve and Earth-B as separate realties but it give more details on Earth-B:


 * Batman begun his career in WWII shortly after D-Day and teamed up with Sargent Rock during the conflict.
 * Batman continued his career into the 1970s not appearing to age or marry.
 * The Green Arrow apparently regained his lost fortune.


 * It is worthing noting that AFAIK the Daily Star was NOT mentioned until after The Flash #123 (Sept 1961); the Golden age Clark Kent first worked for the Cleveland Evening News (Action #2) and later the Daily Planet (Superman #4). Luthor became bald in 1941 (Superman #10) and from Superman #18 (Sept 1942) to the end of 1947 Superman had "super muscular control" which allowed him contort his face into any form of disguise that he wished...a power the Earth-Two Superman never had.


 * So nearly all Golden Age stories happened on a host of different earth none of which was Earth-Two...or Earth-One.--2606:A000:7D44:100:DDB:C0D0:ACC9:1A12 (talk) 12:53, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Earth-H? Earth-U?
I can't remember where I saw these. I vaguely remember Earth-H having something to do with Lex Luthor and Earth-U about something else, perhaps a nuclear holocaust. Anybody remember anything about that? 90.134.108.229 (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think Earth-H may have been shorthand for Earth-Hostess where DC heroes defeated villains by throwing Hostess snscks at them.--2606:A000:7D44:100:E8C9:F59A:1524:92E8 (talk) 13:45, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Earth Prime
I would like to point out that it's no longer being referred to as New Earth in DC, the main continuity takes place on Earth Prime, There are many interviews with different writers and artists from DC where they call the main continuity Universe Earth Prime. Before people get uppity about this, yes I am aware that Earth Prime used to be Superboy's Universe, but that's not the case any more. It is being called Earth Prime, because it is the Primary Universe, it is still equivalent to Earth-0. In the interview on this link James Robinson refers to the main DCU as Earth Prime: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=38469 203.214.87.180 (talk) 04:33, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Robinson doesn't call it Earth Prime in that interview, the interviewer does. Robinson only mentions the term Earth Prime in an ambiguous way. DC has always used the term Earth Prime to refer to our own world, which could possibly be how Robinson was using it. Try again. Wanderer32 (talk) 17:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe you should read the article, and I quote "One of the things that you are going to see about Earth 2 is that it's not a magical place or a sorcerers' world, but it does have a slightly metaphysical feel to it. Science doesn't work exactly the same as it does on Earth Prime." - James Robinson
 * The entire paradigm has changed, Earth Prime is now the main continuity Earth. Even Dan Didio has referred to the main continuity as Prime in Q&As at cons.203.214.87.180 (talk) 07:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Additional: From the typing fingers of Dan Didio himself! "Grant will be slowly revealing the Multiverse in story next year, but just between us, the basic rules still apply. 52 universes with Prime Earth in the center, and the further you get from the center the the greater the differences from the Prime Earth. thanks, DD" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.87.180 (talk) 18:04, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The Robinson quote is still ambiguous, he is only talking about science working differently on Earth Prime. Nothing about that quote proves that that's referring to the main DCU and not to our world. Didio technically says "the Prime Earth", not Earth Prime, and no evidence of what world that's referring to. Find a better source. Wanderer32 (talk) 21:28, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Dan Didio, when talking about the DCnU on his own Facebook page, calls it Earth Prime. You know what though, I don't need to have this argument with someone who is clearly sill living in a Pre-Reboot DCU. Why the hell would I care if this site is wrong? I know I'm right, I've seen Didio's own posts, and I don't require it to be printed in a magazine before I consider the words of the creators themselves correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.87.180 (talk) 07:03, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, yeah, everyone "knows" they're right, but we need hard sources. Actually, it may be best to just wait until Morrison's multiverse comics come out and clear it up. That we can cite. Wanderer32 (talk) 07:46, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem is that Didio also implied on on October 2, 2011 in his Facebook page that Crisis On Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis, and Final Crisis did not occur in DC's New 52 universe. More over, according to John Lichman's October 4, 2011 UGO "DC New 52 Timeline So Far" this was to clarify the early statement by Dan DiDio of "Brace yourself, but after further review, there have been no Crisis events in the New DCU."
 * Logically if there was no Crisis (on Infinite Earths) then there has to be more than 52 realities. More over the Planetary comic established that Crisis was only a partial collapse again establishing more than 52 realities.--216.31.124.93 (talk) 16:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Except that officially, everything before Flashpoint has been tossed out now. The whole thing has been reset, and only information from after Flashpoint is valid now. While there have been references to events from pre-Flashpoint stories, that doesn't mean the details of those stories haven't changed. We can't say how many universes there are now until it comes up in-story. Wanderer32 (talk) 01:26, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem there is Convergence happened after Flashpoint and it had the collapse of the DC multiverse prevented with all the worlds exist...which by Crisis On Infinite Earths: Absolute Edition is at least 114 of them.--2606:A000:7D44:100:E8C9:F59A:1524:92E8 (talk) 13:52, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

New Unclassified Earths
DC Bombshells and Gotham City Garage both have comics ergo they belong in the Unclassified Earth category. Moreover DC Bombshells reality has been visited by a Prime Earth character confirming it is part of the current New 52 multiverse.

I should mention the universe Lucifer created in Lucifer (vo1 1) #13 though in Lucifer: Nirvana it is stated he created a multiverse (as well as here) so I am not sure where this would go.--2606:A000:7D44:100:AC3B:C676:6852:EEFD (talk) 13:33, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Constantine and Arrowverse
Some of the wording in the Arrowverse table is outdated. For example, Matt Ryan reprising Constantine is mentioned as "one-time-only deal" but in 2018 he became a recurring character on Legends of Tomorrow and has been upgraded to regular for the 2018-19 season. Also, there's a note warning about Constantine not being referred to as an Arrowverse series, however Legends of Tomorrow established it is as the series referenced and continued plot points from the earlier show. (What is reportedly not an Arrowverse show is the City of Demons animated series). 50.66.121.20 (talk) 20:59, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Redirect
How to make pages redirect to the New 52 section? Sir Magnus (talk) 19:47, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Arrowverse Post Crisis.
Alright, lately I've been a pain in the neck about Earth-3 Potentially becoming part of "Earth Prime" on account of Jay and Joan being in Keystone City on Earth Prime. In My emotional haste I neglected to remember a couple factors on why that may be circumstantial evidence or pure speculation.

Point 1: Displaced individuals, I was forgetting about "Good Beth" from Batwoman, the various Brainiac doubles and that Reign Cult, let alone that whole other Earth they put in Suspended Animation. For all I know Jay and Joan could have been displaced in Earth Prime's New History.

Point 2: The mystery of whether Henry Allen and Nora Allen still look like Jay and Joan or not on Earth Prime. If they do it's too much of a coincidence to say that Henry and Jay are Twins who eventually Married Twins.

Point 3: The Upcoming appearance of Jay Garrick on Stargirl. Jay's helmet was last seen in the JSA's last fight with the Injustice Society, no body was found. It could be up in the air if Jay accidentally traversed to Earth Prime in the new history at that time. I can't personally say and no one else can that there are two of Jay or not yet.

If you feel like tearing out your hair either way, at this point you can revert or not revert if you want my last edit with the reference, which may or may not be reliable at this point.

I hope Faver1fan93 can accept a sincere and heartfelt apology in this instance for my rash actions. Maxcardun (talk) 3:26, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, you were adding in info without a provided source. The burden is on the editor adding the info to also have a source to go along with it. That was my issue with your edits. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:05, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I see... in a way I was breaking the rules. I should endeavor to do better. Maxcardun (talk) 8:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Judging by recent revelations, Superman & Lois is not on "Earth Prime" here's hoping they call themselves Earth-1 or something someday. If the Jay Garrick who was on Stargirl proves to be the Jay Garrick from The Flash, then we might have to rethink what I argued about earlier when I fought for Earth-3 Merging with Earth Prime. On the Bright side let's hope that this means the CW will have a Batman one day who is not dead dying, or missing. Maxcardun (talk) 13:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)