Talk:List of Don't Trust the B---- in Apartment 23 episodes

Episode order
They seem to have messed up the order in which the episodes are aired; 2x05 obviously takes place before 1x06 and 1x07. -- Imladros (talk) 10:48, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * When all episodes from the first season have aired (there is still three more), it's highly likely that the tables will be arranged so that they're listed in the production/intended order - similar to what's happened on several articles, including List of Futurama episodes. - Wattlebird (talk) 10:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)


 * In this case could it be possible to add a column with Season order like in futurama ? Because right now it seems incorrect and you can't easily find episodes in the order they were broacast, you have to look at the air datewhich isn't really user friendly. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.166.134.107 (talk) 19:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Done! - Wattlebird (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Although some series episode lists like Futurama list the episode order by production as it appears on the DVDs, this series has a 7 episode first season and a 19 episode second season, even if it's easier to follow the story, season wise, the list should go by airdate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.141.78 (talk) 00:49, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


 * There are other instances of articles being arranged so that production order is followed - List of Arrested Development episodes, List of Undeclared episodes, List of Firefly episodes - and these are ones just off the top of my head. There will be others too. - Wattlebird (talk) 01:08, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


 * While that is true, in Arrested Development's case, the episodes were arranged in production order because all of those episodes were aired in that season. Same with Community's episode list. Firefly only had 1 season so it's understandable that the episodes were ordered by production. While Apartment 23's episode order is very confusing, the first season has 7 episodes, while the second has 19. Look at Body of Proof, Men in Trees, and Boston Legal. They had episodes held over and aired out of production code but they go by airdate order because either the DVDs are like that or if they didn't, the airdates would be messed up. Body of Proof has 9 episodes as its first season and the remaining 4 were aired in it's second season. Boston Legal's first season had 17 episodes as did Men in Trees but their first season episodes wee not included as part of Season 1 on their episode lists. Maybe at the bottom of the episode list we could create an "intended episode order list" in a grid? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.141.78 (talk) 01:17, 15 January 2013 (UTC)


 * There are also instances of where shows with multiple seasons have been restored to production order, ie Grounded for Life (season 1). The broadcast season had 15 episodes, this article has 20. And this continues for the rest of the series five seasons. - Wattlebird (talk) 01:27, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I created a separate table showing the series' episodes in their intended order. It is unknown whether or not this show will get further seasons so this might be the easiest way to distinguish the episodes between seasons and at the same time have the correct season order in the table. (Season 1: 7 episodes: April 11, 2012-May 23, 2012) (Season 2: 19 episodes: October 23, 2012-TBA 2013). Maybe this is the best way for now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.141.78 (talk) 02:28, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

"Intended Order"
Using the production order as the intended order doesn't seem completely accurate. For instance, the Season 2 episode "It's a Miracle..." (2ATF02), which involves Thanksgiving, was produced before "Love and Monsters..." (2ATF03), which involves Halloween, yet obviously the Halloween episode would have been intended to air before the Thanksgiving episode, which is indeed how they aired. Also, the first set of episodes produced for Season 2 seem to have been written to air before several of the remaining unaired Season 1 episodes. In the produced Season 1 finale (1ATF11), June gets a new job at Harkin Financial and Mark realizes he has feelings for her. The first four episodes produced for Season 2 completely ignore those developments. It's not until the fifth episode produced for Season 2 (2ATF05) that June finally starts the job at Harkin Financial and Mark's feelings are brought up again. And indeed that fifth episode aired directly after the original Season 1 finale finally did, so in that instance the aired order seems correct. (Unfortunately the episode that followed that one clearly should have been aired much earlier.) I'm not sure the solution to this--perhaps wait until a DVD release that hopefully reorganizes the episodes in some kind of official order--but the production order doesn't seem to correspond with a so-called "intended order." Maybe the list should be called "Production Order" for the time being?XArcher (talk) 05:28, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Only reason the Thanksgiving episode was filmed prior to the Halloween episode was the availability of Marin Hinkle as they had to work around her schedule for Deception, where she is a series regular. Also, in the fifth episode, Chloe says "I can't believe you've haven't started that new job yet, you've been talking about it for four weeks" to explain why the job hadn't started yet. Plus there were subtle references to Mark's crush on June - ie when she changes in front of him in the locker room of the coffee shop - so when watched in the intended order, everything does make sense. - Wattlebird (talk) 09:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I just rechecked the episode on Hulu--she doesn't say "for four weeks," she says "for weeks," which works either way. Actually, I would argue it works better if the first four episodes produced for Season 2 were intended to be slotted before the final Season 1 episodes, because otherwise it's been months since June got the job, not weeks, since both Halloween and Thanksgiving (at at least several weeks before Halloween with "A Reunion...") have passed. Plus, just because Mark didn't admit his crush to himself and James until "A Weekend in the Hamptons," it still fits that there would be hints of it before that, as even Chloe recognized in "The Scarlet Neighbor...", obviously intended to air far before that, that he had feelings for June.
 * On another note, production on the Season Two episodes began in the summer of 2012, after it was already known that the remaining episodes of Season One hadn't aired. It makes little sense that the producers would have specifically written episodes centered around Halloween and Thanksgiving (with the expectation that they would be aired near those holidays) if they expected/wanted the remaining Season One episodes to air first, which would have pushed those Halloween and Thanksgiving episodes much later. At the very least, it seems impossible that "Love and Monsters..." "It's a Miracle" and "Sexy People" is the intended order, because it's doubtful they would have wanted the show to be off the air for a full month between the Halloween episode and the Thanksgiving episode, so "Sexy People" was intended to go between them. (Plus, just as the Halloween episode aired just before Halloween and the Thanksgiving episode just before Thanksgiving, Sexy People aired right when People magazine's actual Sexiest Man Alive issue came out in mid-November, which seems to indicate that is where it was intended to air.)
 * I think this shows a lot of this can be debated. I guess the point is that, with no verifiable references that the producers intended the production order to be the aired order, we shouldn't call it the intended order until it is confirmed. Calling it the "Production Order" still offers a much more logical progression for the Season 1 episodes if anyone wants to use the list to help them watch the episodes without us inferring too much about the producers' intentions without proof. XArcher (talk) 22:40, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Edits/Blurbs
I realize there's a lot of debate going on about the page, but would it be possible to be a little clearer why changes are being made? I added longer blurbs to some of the episodes to try to get some uniformity to them (because it's a bit odd that the pilot has a massive synopsis, some of the episodes have a paragraph and some a single line) and they were reverted, but I'm not sure why. Maybe they just got caught up in the other changes? I was entering the official press release blurbs from ABC, which is what was being done on the American Dad page (albeit from Fox in that case), which seemed to offer a happy medium, but if that's not acceptable let me know. Hopefully we can find some way to make them more uniform. Also, the writer/director info from future episodes was also available from network releases, but edited out. I'm putting it back, but if it's a problem, just let me know. - XArcher (talk) 03:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Just noting that the ABC blurbs seem to be the standard for the Happy Endings pages, which seems like the closest comparison to this one.XArcher (talk) 03:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I expanded the summaries that seemed particularly spare, keeping them at roughly 2-2 1/2 lines, but it's probably worth discussing what kind of blurbs should be used as standard for the page. That summary for the pilot in particular doesn't seem like it qualifies as a "short" summary. XArcher (talk) 03:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I refer you to WP:TVPLOT which says:
 * "For season articles, there are a couple ways to present plot information: in a basic prose section that gives season story arcs and main plot points or a tabular format that sections off each individual episode with its own brief plot section (approximately 100–200 words for each, with upwards of 350 words for complex storylines)."


 * I trimmed down the pilot summary, as it sat at 437 words. It's now around 300, which is fine to set-up the show. I also personally believe using anything from other sites, including press releases, is WP:COPYVIO, no matter who else does it in Wikipedia. — WylieCoyote 05:49, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Wylie. Cut/paste of summaries are a copyright violation, and I have removed them. It does not matter if WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS (such as at Happy Endings), that is not a valid reason. It is still a violation, and not a "standard". In fact, those need to be removed as well. Please see WP:COPYPASTE for more info. --Logical Fuzz (talk) 22:17, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Cancellation
Sooo when are we going to yank the remaining eight episodes from the page? I doubt they will see the light of a TV screen. — WylieCoyote 04:35, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The titles have been announced, and they've been filmed, these are facts and they can be left in the table without an air date. Also, it's currently airing on Channel 4 in the UK and probably others; and in the end they'll all be on DVD. 202.81.243.62 (talk) 12:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)