Talk:List of Dutch Jews

Missing names
I don't have time myself, but I miss some persons in the list:

Alexander Pola, TV writer, actor and comedian

his daughter Clairy Polak, TV journalist

Simon van Collem, journalist and TV maker

Stella Fontaine, cabaret artist

Prof. Marius Gustaaf Levenbach, important professor of labour law

Brandenburger (talk) 23:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC) / Brandenburger (talk) 11:24, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Jessica Durlacher
Maybe someone with more knowledge of linking can provide the links where it says 'there is no page about' but there is (see for instance Jessica Durlacher) ? Thanks Adri
 * Has been resolved by User:Jitse Niesen. Thanks, Jitse! gidonb (talk) 11:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Name change and mergers
I suggest changing the name List of Dutch Jews, which is now redirected here. The current "List of Dutch Jewish writers and poets" can be a category of the larger list. gidonb (talk) 03:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I received no comments in favor or against, so just went ahead and made the changes I suggested. gidonb (talk) 17:10, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I went on and also merged the list of Jews in the Jewish history article into this list. While there is place for a very select list in that article, it contained a long list of Jews that were not mentioned elsewhere, frequently without articles and at times even not notable. gidonb (talk) 11:30, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Photographs
Just a few words on the selection: Comments are welcome. gidonb (talk) 14:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Artists - Arguably, the most famous Jewish artists are the Israëls, father and son. There was a portrait of Jozef, but not of Isaac.
 * Actors and comedians - I found no photographs, but Louis Davids would be great. As of yet he has no article, however, on en.wiki and there are no direct photos on nl.wiki.
 * Academics - Erasmus (not Jewish) and Spinoza (great portrait) are the most famous Dutch scientists. Asser was chosen because he won the Nobel prize for Peace.
 * Businesspeople - no photographs, also on nl.wiki.
 * Musicians - Lenny Kuhr was my first choice as she won the Eurovision Song Contest.
 * Politicians - Ed van Thijn probably is the most prominent of all times, but has a poor photo. Job Cohen already had his picture in a list and is highly notable.
 * Rabbis - I liked the image of Isaac Aboab da Fonseca best.
 * Sports people - Daniel de Ridder already had his picture in a list and is highly notable.
 * Writers - my first choice would be Anne Frank and Harry Mulisch, however these have respectively a limited use photo and a poor photo on nl.wiki. Instead I chose Helga Deen and Jacob Israel de Haan.
 * I added Leon de Winter as a contemporary author. Unfortunately this photo is also black and white and he is looking down. gidonb (talk) 17:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I also found a great self-portrait of Eduard Frankfort on the Dutch Wikipedia. gidonb (talk) 17:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I added some more photographs, but I think I got the idea across above: Notability of the person, availability of a photo, quality of the photo and space were the main considerations. gidonb (talk) 23:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Partly jewish
As many, if not most persons, mentioned in this article, seem to be only partly and in many cases even less then 50%, (so not predominantly), jewish, the title of the article might better be "List of Dutch (partly) jewish persons". Also possible is, that only those, who evidently are/were 100%, or at least more than 50% jewish, can be mentioned. --VKing (talk) 13:30, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * e.g. Jessica Durlacher had a Jewish father but not a jewish mother. Metzujan (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * In case that father was predominantly, but not 100% jewish, (which in European countries seems to be mostly the case) and the mother not jewish at all, the doughter is less then 50% jewish, so that this person shouldn't be called "jewish", but "partly jewish".
 * Especcially when that person for the other more than 50% belongs to one and the same different race, (for instance blond (Northern Europide)), the person is more Europide, than Jewish. In such cases it can have a rather confusing effect, to (for instance in an encyclopedia like Wp), nevertheless say, that it is a jewish person.
 * Of course it mostly will be not easy to find sources, that mention the measure (percentage) of jewishness of a person, but insiders can see a lot, if sources add one or more pictures. After all one can also see, of what race or mixture of races for instance an apple is, or a dog. No sources needed for that. It even is very well thinkable, that physical reality is quite different, from what official sources say in this respect. --VKing (talk) 13:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * First of all Jews are not a race, it's a common mistake made by many, but they belong to a people. Anyone can convert to judaism and that doesn't make that person less Jewish, than someone how has more Jewish roots. Also jews are not less European than Christians. I remember back in the days that I studied at the University of Amsterdam that somebody asked me how it is possible that I have a Dutch surname. It appeared to be he was less Dutch than I (his mother was an immigrant), since for over 6 generations my family was already living in Holland.
 * Back to percentage of Jewishness. According to the Jewish tradition you are Jewish if you have a Jewish mother. So if your father is not Jewish nor the father of your mother is, then you could conclude according to logics that you are 25 % jewish. This "partly" Jewish however does not exist, you are in this case a full 100 % Jewish. If only your father is Jewish, you are simply acording the tradition not Jewish, 0 %. Metzujan (talk) 13:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Initial question however remains valid. Why adding people who are according to the Jewish tradition not Jewish? Hopefully Gidonb can shed a light on this. Metzujan (talk) 14:23, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Metzujan is correct in all his statements. VKing, I am going to warn you against edit warring and pov pushing at this list. You are permanently banned from using Wikipedia in your native language for the continuous use of hate speech, the insertion of copyrighted texts and lying about it, edit warring and pushing of fringe right-wing pov, including ample statements on the physical appearance of Jews vs. non-Jews.
 * Why do we include persons who have a Jewish father and not only persons who have a Jewish mother in these lists? There are many reasons, but I can group them in two bundles:
 * First, some Jewish communities accept "father Jews" as being Jewish. There is at least one such community in the Netherlands as well. It is a small minority, but not a fringe minority. Related, all other directions in Judaism will allow some discounts for father Jews when they seek to convert. These may vary from a few questions less in the initial interview to substantially less studying, for example if Jewish laws and rituals were observed in the household. The point is that while most Jews agree that such a person is 0% Jewish (and few perceive the person as 100% Jewish, and even then often only after she/he becomes interested in Judaism), all directions respect that such a person may have some Jewish background.
 * Second, it is so much easier and neutral to just include any parent, say which parent it is and allow the reader to draw her/his own conclusions. It may not be the Religious Orthodox-Jewish way of interpreting information, but it is definitely the Wikipedia way of presenting data. As all the data are included, there is no contradication between the Wikipedia presentation and the common Jewish interpretation. Just stick to the principals you outlined above. Easier implementation creates less error, discussion, and more consistency. Finally, it gives us more time to do what we are good at: Making a great encyclopedia.
 * BTW, if my answer does not satisfy you, please take the discussion to Lists of Jews. This discussion is wasted on this page, as the lists of Jews are consistent with each other. Also, more people will join the discussion at a more general talk page. In this case, leave a note here as well, so we will know it is continuing elsewhere. Regards, gidonb (talk) 16:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Just a footnote: there is also a third, more historic set of reasons to include persons whose father is Jewish. Especially for the Netherlands, where most of the Jewish population was murdered in The Holocaust, these are quite important. gidonb (talk) 01:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Race and people
''"First of all Jews are not a race, it's a common mistake made by many, but they belong to a people.'

Most main-races consist of several sub-races, which sub-races in their turn consist of several sub-sub-races. The Europide main-race for instance consists of the Northern- Europide sub-race and the Southern-Europide one. This Southern Europide sub-race for instance in its turn consists of several sub-sub-races, which in fact are different peoples, like French, Italians and Spanish. They all have certain characteristics in common, but also certain specific distinguishing other characteristics. Normally spoken one can see very well, whether somebody is an Italian, or a Spanjard.

With Jews (maybe one can also say "autochone Israeli's"), it is no different. They're one of the peoples, naturally based in the so called Near-East (in fact Western Asia), that all have their own specific characteristics, but all belong to the Arabic sub-race or main-race. The simple choise of for instance a Europide person for the Judaist religion doesn't change anything about his racial signature. He stays Europide, and doesn't become Jewish in racial sence at all.

No different is it either as far as concerns the valuation of roots in this respect. If somebody has a 100% jewish father and a 0% jewish mother, than he in fact (biologically) belongs to the Jewish people for 50%, no matter wether religious Jewish tradion says that he is 0% Jewish.

(Hopefully this explanation doesn't make this contributor to a "racist" on this English version of Wp too).--VKing (talk) 21:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * ''"You are permanently banned from using Wikipedia in your native language for the continuous use of hate speech, the insertion of copyrighted texts and lying about it, edit warring and pushing of fringe right-wing pov, including ample statements on the physical appearance of Jews vs. non-Jews."


 * As already touched here above, saying that somebody doesn't belong on the list of jews, because his outward characteristics are too different from those, that are typical for jews, has been mentioned "racism" there, but definitly isn't. Nevertheless talking about this kind of things seemed to be breaking through a heavy taboo in that little country. And indeed, that was mentioned as one of the reasons, why more voters desired a ban for undetermined time, than others, who didn't.


 * But there was absolutely nothing about "the insertion of copyrighted texts and lying about it".  There was an article about "face lifting", started by this user, for which he derived most information from a commercial website, (like happens very often), that initially was deleted, because another user thought it was against the copyright of that site, but after some changes in the text, there were no objections any more and there certainly has been no lying whatsoever. (Talking about lying!?).


 * As for "edit-warring" there had been one case, in which this user two times replaced a text in the article he started about Fruitarianism, whereas somebody else, reverted this time and time again without any kind of motivation. After she did that for the fouth time, this user was accused of causing an edit war?!


 * But the matter, that most directly lead to a banning vote, was in this user's efforts, to get the logo of a pedophiles movement, that was above the article about pedophelia, removed, because in his vision it might have a promoting effect. To his big surprise, this was against the wish of as good as all other users, he more or less knew there.


 * And as for "fringe right-wing pov", it is very unlikely, that several contributions with a nature- and/or environment protecting character, that were marked as "pov", can be called "fringe right-wing pov".--VKing (talk) 01:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The above racist theory and denial speak for themselves. gidonb (talk) 18:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * According to dictionaries "Racism" is "the belief, that one race is superior to all others".
 * On VKing's side never and nowhere one word, that possibly could be seen as part of that belief, has been edited on Wp or anywhere else.
 * Still one or more users of Wp called some of VKing's edits racistic of character.So they could (and should) be suied for Libeling. But they contribute anonimously, (although this is against the rules).
 * It's not racistic, to talk about clearly visible, biological differences between different races. --VKing (talk) 16:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Since Jews are not a race, your application of racial theory to Jews is prejudicial about their physical appearance. You are specifically prejudicial about physical appearance when you show pictures below as proof of a person being Jewish or ask "Doesn't for instance this person [1] have even more outward jewish characteristics?" These are not isolated incidents, you were banned from nl.wiki for your racism and disrespect of rules. Your prejudicial approach and disrespect for Jews being an ethnic group ("people") - as patiently explained to you above by Metzujan - and/or religious group is hostile towards Jews. Either hostile or prejudicial against Jews is enough for antisemitism. You are both. Your defense is that you may be a promoter of racial theory (and as I just proved antisemitic), but you are not a racist. This is also incorrect as antisemitism is racism against Jews, definitely when applied in combination with ethnicity insisted to be a race. gidonb (talk) 02:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * ''"Definition: Ethnicity 1. An ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties; "ethnicity has a strong influence on community status relations"."


 * So ethnicity results from (among others) racial ties.
 * Now, if the term "Jewish" is not also a racial one, but just an ethnical one, then what could be the race, from which ethnical ties of Jews result?


 * See also: "Ethnicity is the cultural characteristics that connect a particular group or groups of people to each other.While ethnicity and race are related concepts, the concept of ethnicity is rooted in the idea of societal groups, marked especially by shared nationality, tribal afilliation, religious faith, shared language, or cultural or traditional origins and backgrounds. Whereas race is rooted in the idea of biological classification of homo sapiens to subspecies according to morphological features such as skin color or facial characteristics. "Ethnicity" is sometimes used as a euphemism for "race"." --VKing (talk) 16:17, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Race, and this is clear also from the definitions above, is irrelevant as a Jew may have no Jewish parents, and be equally Jewish as all other Jews. Very much like being American or Dutch. For many years I had an East-African-born girlfriend - whose race is considered different from mine - but we both considered ourselves and were considered in our community Jews and as Jews felt particularly comfortable with each other and each other's customs. Ethnicity is an old instrument for disregarding race. There are even older ones (affection, attraction, humanity, respect, exchange, etc.) and many newer ones and they must all scare the hell out of you. gidonb (talk) 11:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

"''Race, and this is clear also from the definitions above, is irrelevant as a Jew may have no Jewish parents, and be equally Jewish as all other Jews. Very much like being American or Dutch."

In case ethnicity is not a result of race, it mostly is a result of nationality. So apart from "Dutch" in racial sence (the autochtone, blond, blue-eyed, Northern-Europide sub-sub race), there is "Dutch" in the sence of having the Dutch nationality, in other words a Dutch passport. Maybe there's not a thing like the Jewish nationality (any more), as the autochtone inhabitants of Judea fled their country, when it came to defending it, and since then spread all over the world. Attempts, to get their natural place back have succeeded to a certain extent, but as that country now is called "Israel", the corresponding nationality is called "Israelian" and not "Jewish" any more.

---

"''For many years I had an East-African-born girlfriend - whose race is considered different from mine - but we both considered ourselves and were considered in our community Jews and as Jews felt particularly comfortable with each other and each other's customs." There are also East-African-born persons, who are to a certain extent Jewish in racial sence. But if that was'nt the case with this person, than a question is, in how far she's still ethnically Jewish, since Gdorb obviously doesn't "have that girlfriend" any more. One doesn't get some ethnicity, just by being somebody elses friend for some weeks, months or years.

--

"''Ethnicity is an old instrument for disregarding race."

Why should one (use instruments to) disregard one's own or somebody else's race? Race is a biological reality and in principle there's nothing in it, that gives reason to disregard it. On the contrary, one might say. Many, if not most, people are proud of their race. If some prefer to disregard it, than a question is, for what reason they do.

---

"'' There are even older ones (affection, attraction, humanity, respect, exchange, etc.) and many newer ones and they must all scare the hell out of you."

This leaves the questions, what the newer ones are supposed to be, and how they are supposed to "scare the hell out of" somebody. Maybe this sentence even is a very bad sin against the Wp rules, and should at least be followed by a warning to the user, who committed it; it all depends from a nearer explanation, which is demanded hereby. --VKing (talk) 15:05, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * For a person to be included in this list, independent, reliable sources must be available that reference the person's Judaism. As for your other concerns: One can become Dutch in several ways, including through birth. The same applies to Jewishness. My ex is still a very dear friend of me, thank you. Wikipedia talk pages and articles are not a place to promote one's agenda, be it racist or not. See WP:NOT for more details. gidonb (talk) 13:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW below you claim that people can be identified as Jews by their facial features. I don't think Wikipedia is the right place for such "original research". gidonb (talk) 15:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

''"My ex is still a very dear friend of me, thank you'."

So the girlfriend some user, according to his own saying, once had, now turns out to be his "ex", which usually means, that there was a marriage. But as former spouses don't use to be called "former girlfriends" (although they mosly are), in this case "ex" must be meant in the sence of "ex girlfriend". As however the user in question declares, that this ex girlfriend still is "a very dear friend of me", things are becoming very complicated.

Anyway, the question is, whether there are reliable sources of the statement, that somebody can get the jewish ethnicity, just by being somebody elses girlfriend, and if yes, how long that relation, according to those sources has to last, before the change in ethnicity takes place. Another question is, in how far the obtained ethnicity disappears again, when that relation comes to an end.

Talking about reliable sources; indeed one can say, that pictures can only be used as a proove of somebody belonging to a certain people or race, in case in reliable sources criteria have been mentioned, that are dicisive in that respect. Alas it seems, that finding these sources might take more time, than this user has available for this, to him marginal, matter. In the little time he had available, he found this: , but that may be not quite, what the search was for. Maybe others have more time available. As for this user, he has to stop trying to make the article in question a less unsysthematic (and in his vision incomplete) one, than it was, when he first saw it recently, as well as discussing related subjects on this page now, because he thinks he has much more urgent things to do. --VKing (talk) 01:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Huh? This personal prose is totally off-topic. This is not a forum for general discussion of Jews and lists of Jews or even less-related topics. Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of this List of Dutch Jews. You may wish to post your thoughts at the Reference desk, the Village pump, or the Help desk. gidonb (talk) 01:20, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Reverts

 * ''"(cur) (prev) 14:42, 31 May 2009 Gidonb (talk | contribs) (12,469 bytes) (Reverted 1 edit by VKing; Not a helpful change to say the least. artists were first by alphabetical order. (TW)) (undo)"

Allways thought that actors, comedians, writers, and musicians are artists and that jurists are academics. Of course the different professions can be mentioned in an alfaqbetical order, but then Academics should be mentioned first, not Artists.


 * ''"(cur) (prev) 12:41, 31 May 2009 Metzujan (talk | contribs) (12,469 bytes) (back to this version (Ed van Thijn was for no reason deleted)) (undo)"

If a double mention is "no reason", for the delete of one, than what is? --VKing (talk) 16:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * ''"(cur) (prev) 12:38, 31 May 2009 Metzujan (talk | contribs) (12,450 bytes) (undo:revision 292007003 by VKing: Dries van Agt with his dubious attitude toward Nazi criminals (drie van Breda) as well as Menten as well as his biased view on jews, makes him the worst candidiate)"

All that doesn't mean, that such a person can not be (partly) jewish. He can have (had) several reasons, for an attitude like that. Doesn't for instance this person have even more outward jewish characteristics? --VKing (talk) 17:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * VKing, you were correct that the chapters were not correctly sorted for starters (within the letter "a"). I reverted you because you put politicians first. The "p", as you should know, is located much further than the "a" in the alphabet. Also spare en.wiki your racist theories. You were perma-banned from nl.wiki for inserting these, discussing them on talk pages, and other un-Wikipedian behavior. gidonb (talk) 15:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Those are two completely different subjects. The last sentence is totally of topic. If it would be racistic, to mention arguments, why a person has been added to this list, than this whole list would be racistic.
 * On Wp no other users are reverted, but eventually some of their contributions.
 * Politicians were put in the first place, because this catagory might be the one, containing names, that are most often mentioned in sources and might be socially most relevant. But when the list is made alphabetic, than this should be done correctly.--VKing (talk) 17:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See answer above. Putting Jewish politicians first is associated with your racist behavior on multiple wikipedias and has nothing to do with the importance of Jewish politicians in the Netherlands. Jews are not particularly important in Dutch politics. The politicians on this list are relatively unknown, especially when compared for example with diarist Anne Frank and philosopher Baruch Spinoza. gidonb (talk) 02:13, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

More names
Names that presumably could be added, because pictures conciderably show characteristics, that are specific for either the Jewish (sub-(sub-)) race, or for the race, from which Jewish ethnicity (among others) resulted:


 * Frans Körver, soccer ,
 * Jan de Quay
 * Guusje ter Horst, politics
 * Dries van Agt, politics
 * André van der Louw, politics
 * Gerald Vanenburg, soccer
 * Jelle Zijlstra, politics

--VKing (talk) 18:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No reliable references whatsoever were provided. gidonb (talk) 20:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Photographs can have the same function as citations. For all names, mentioned on the list of famous beardwearers, hardly any citations seem to be available.--VKing (talk) 15:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you provide reliable, independent sources that Judaism can be recognized by one's facial features? :-( gidonb (talk) 13:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Continuing the merger
I have just moved the list of Jews from Amsterdam into this article. The list is still separate and needs to be combined under the categories. It was not referenced at its old location and the duplicity with List of Dutch Jews was just too large to defend its separate existence (for the smaller communities this is somewhat different). After completing the mergers, each single item on this and other lists needs to be referenced as being Jewish from reliable and independent sources, otherwise the person will be removed. I would greatly appreciate help in this tedious endeavor. Perhaps we can set up a group of persons who take interest in Dutch Judaism, such as Jfdwolff, Metuzajan, Rick86, Daniel575, and me. gidonb (talk) 20:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Feel free to provide more names. gidonb (talk) 20:16, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Uranrising (talk) 23:29, 6 September 2011 (UTC)MusiciansUranrising (talk) 23:29, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
There was such a section in May which has disappeared.

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