Talk:List of Dutch vegetarians

Photo Thieme
I have got my reasons for placing the image of Marianne Thieme at the top of the page rather than between the rest of the images. First of all, I think people are inclined to show more interest in an article if they see an (attractive) photo at the top. The photo and the accompanied text are the first things people see and read when they reach this page and it works as an incentive to read on. Also, other featured lists of people have a photo of a notable person from the list below in the upper right corner, like List of HIV-positive people and List of people with epilepsy. Furthermore, the picture of Thieme is unlike many of the other images on this page of high quality, and therefore fit to show in a larger size. Apart from that, Thieme is certainly one if not the most notable Dutch vegetarian in the list. There is no reason to move this picture toward the "politicians" list, because the text below the image explains her notability as an animal rights activist and politician. Baldrick90 (talk) 18:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Baldrick. I have no problem with pictures. I love the pictures. I have a problem in selecting one vegetarian politician from a particular party, enlarging her picture and giving it a caption, and giving her and her party more attention and platform on a neutral list. This comes very close to pushing or advocating her and her party. I have worked out a solution, we start the list of pictures earlier and treat them all equal. C mon (talk) 19:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I assure you it was never my intention to use Wikipedia as a soapbox. I believe the caption is neutral, but you've got a point when it comes to the size. However, featured lists of people always show one particular notable and relevant person in the corner and I didn't feel like breaking that tradition. One might think, who is the most notable vegetarian in the Netherlands? The Netherlands is the first country in the world which has a party focused mainly on animal rights in its lower house. I endorse your idea of equality, meaning all pictures should have the size, but I believe there is nothing wrong with giving Thieme a caption, provided it is indeed entirely neutral. Also, your idea of moving the images upwards dramatically increases the distance between the pictures and the relevant names. I started the list of images next to list of authors to minimise that distance. In conclusion, I disagree with the current situation but will wait for your reaction because I don't want to engage in an edit war over this. Baldrick90 (talk) 20:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, I have multiple issues:
 * There is no need to put a single famous Vegetarian on the list. Featured lists like list of Gay, lesbian or bisexual people: A, list of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom, or List of Eagle Scouts (Boy Scouts of America) don't have one person at the top. They just put them at the side, or incorporate them into the table. There are multiple ways of dealing with this: removing the table of contents (as I did), starting the pictures only when the lists starts, removing the legenda. Even if you would want one prominent picture, I would not choose Thieme, I would choose Guido Weijers en Monique van der Werff, who were chosen "most sexy vegetarian" by a Wakker Dier poll.
 * Several features of the list (the colour code of the PvdD, the picture of Marianne Thieme) imply that the specific political affiliation of the PvdD is relevant for a list on the dietary habit vegetarianism. The PvdD is not a vegetarian party, it does not advocate vegetarianism, nor is it the only party that deals with animal welfare issues. Moreover vegetarianism is not one on one related with the animal welfare issue. People can be vegetarians for many different reasons (health, taste, money, religion) animal rights is just one reason. I would want both the prominent picture of Thieme and the colour coding on party affiliation, because that implies that there is some necessary relation between a dietary habit an a political affiliation.
 * I think the colour coding in general is confusing and focuses too many different issues, many of which are not directly related to this dietary habit (such as associations, religions and parties). This can easily be solved by reorganizing the whole system into three categories (thereby greatly reducing the size of the Table of Contents and removing the legenda): vegetarian, vegan, pesco-vegetarian. By doing this one a) removes the occupation classification which has nothing to do with the dietary habit and b) reduces the distances between the pictures and the text, if the pictures start at the top.
 * C mon (talk) 21:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * A few comments:
 * - You say there is no need to highlight one image in the corner. Previously I pointed out that two featured lists did have one. Manual_of_Style states "Start an article with a right-aligned image." The reason the LGBT people and Eagle Scouts lists don't have one is because a template is in the way; the reason the list of UK Prime Ministers doesn't have one is because there is a relevant image for all people below (unlike this list) and all those people had the same function (unlike this list).
 * - The images used in my article are not arbitrarily picked: there are very few images available and I used all public domain photos available in the article. There is no free image of Guido Wijers, and I personally do believe the image of Monique van der Werff is a very bad one indeed. It's not one you would want to place on the top of the article, if at all. I fully endorse your idea of choosing Weijers or van der Werff but this is not manageable.
 * - You should know that the colour codes I used are only a means of denoting something, nothing more. See Featured list candidates/List of Dutch vegetarians.
 * - On the PvdD issue, I don't think you are right. The PvdD does advocate a vegetarian lifestyle. It's not the fact that Koffeman, Ouwehand and Thieme are vegetarians. Do you remember Thieme's film, Meat the Truth? What does that film advocate if not vegetarianism? I recall a statement like "better to be a vegetarian and drive a hummer than to be a meat eater on a bike". Anyway, I am very well aware of the different motivations people can have to become a vegetarians. You just can't deny there is at least a connection between animal rights and vegetarianism.
 * -You don't think being chairman of the NVB, the largest Dutch organisation promoting vegetarianism, is related to vegetarianism? That's like saying that Ellen Johnson presidency of American Atheists has nothing to do with atheism. It is relevant because it shows their conviction and willingness to actively promote their beliefs. Also, you can't deny the relevance of the Seventh day Adventist church. That church explicitly advocates vegetarianism, based on their religious conviction.
 * -The number of pescetarians and vegans in the Netherlands is very small. Consequently, the number of famous people that qualify as either of those, is very small. If I do as you say, we'll have three categories: one of two vegans, one of three pescetarians and one of 77 vegetarians. That would in my opinion be a ridiculous thing to do.
 * -Please don't call pescetarians "pesco-vegetarians", which falsely suggests vegetarians can eat fish.
 * -Lastly, it is indeed true occupation hasn't got a whole lot to do with someone's diet. The reason I did make those categories was to help people find their way through what would otherwise just be a pile of names. Baldrick90 (talk) 22:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You just reverted my edit for the third time in a day, that could potentially get you into trouble.
 * I see some of your points about the availability of pictures, the membership of the NVB and why it should not be categorized into three categories on dietary habit.
 * Could you give me proof of a PvdD politician actually saying: you should become a vegetarian. In both the manifesto of principles and the election manifesto of the party, the word "vegetarier" does not even appear. According to the site of Meat the Truth: "De film laat zien dat wanneer iedereen in Nederland slechts 1 dag in de week geen vlees zou eten, dat al een het aanzienlijk verschil zou maken voor het Nederlandse klimaat. Alle klimaatdoelstellingen van de Nederlandse regering voor particuliere huishoudens zouden er in één klap mee gerealiseerd worden." ("The movie shos that when everyone in the Netherlands would not eat meat for one day, this would have a arge effect on the Dutch climate. All climate goals of the Dutch government for households would be met at once.") It advocates eating less meat not vegetarianism.
 * Jainism, Hinduism and Buddhism also advocate vegetarianism, why aren't there any of these people on this list? This focuses a lot of attention on such a small religion.
 * You did not address the problem I raised with the legenda: it creates unneccessary space between the images and the list. Another way of solving this problem is by making it a list of 82 vegetarians alphabetically ordered, because the first batch (activists) all don't have a picture, while if you order them all alphabetically (not unlike list of Gay, lesbian or bisexual people: A, the first person then (Sharon den Adel) would have a picture.
 * So this is the compromise I advocate: 1) Make it one alphabetical list that is sortable 2) with one continuous row of photo's (also alphabetical) 3) remove the colour coding (and instead move the relevant information (dietary habit) into a separate collumn)
 * I hope we can come to some kind of agreement. C mon (talk) 08:11, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * - I'm glad we agree on a few points :)
 * - Perhaps you're right, it might be best to leave it out.
 * - Ofcourse, there are more religions in the world that advocate a vegetarian lifestyle. The reason I don't mention those religions is simple: there are no famous Dutch people that I know of that adhere to any of those religions. That's the sole reason. If you do know them, please add them to the list.
 * - I know it will improve the layout, but I still believe an alphabetical list is only useful when the list of names is too long for one page, like List of LGBT people. Shorter lists, like List of people with epilepsy, are always categorised.
 * - What exactly do you want? Add an additional column just for the twelve (2+3+3+4) of our 82 times it actually is necessary? That would be a big waste of space, I reckon. I would however consider removing the legend and creating a list of notes at the bottom, or something like that.
 * - I fervently hope we can indeed reach consensus in this matter. Maybe it would be good to have someone else comment on this polemic. Baldrick90 (talk) 10:49, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There are several prominent Dutch people who are Hindu (Tara Singh Varma, Nirmala Rambocus f.i.) we would need to find sources about their dietary habits as well.
 * What's wrong with one large sortable list? This would allow people to get any ordering they want and not only one? BTW a short list like list of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom does not have a subcategorization either.
 * I think that one collumn with specific information on dietary habits would be very information and useful, because then you can sort the whole, furthermore it would remove the need of a legenda, reducing the distance between the top pictures and the rest of the text.
 * I don't think we are so far a part on this issue from eachother. C mon (talk) 13:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Not all Hindus are vegetarians, but if you can indeed find evidence they are vegetarians, please do add them.
 * Maybe it's not a bad idea, depends on how you want to do it. I think the categorisation has advantages, if you can preserve those advantages I am certainly interested. Please tell me how you want to do it, give a concrete example so we'll have something to work with. Baldrick90 (talk) 19:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I would propose this: C mon (talk) 08:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

It still needs some work but I have to say, I like it. Just a few questions. What should be the default order, alphabetical by name or by occupation? And what about the pictures? Baldrick90 (talk) 11:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Alphabetically, if we implement it like this, the pictures can follow the alphabetical order. C mon (talk) 12:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OK I'm finished. What do you think about it? Baldrick90 (talk) 19:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks great, but the picture of Thieme is still on top, while my goal was to have one alphabetical list of pictures. C mon (talk) 09:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you really want it so badly, then the caption of the image of Thieme should be removed. Also, I would in that case prefer the list of images to start right under title "List". That way the "edit" button stays in place and, more importantly, the images and the names of the people in the list are closer together (which was what we aimed for, wasn't it?) Baldrick90 (talk) 21:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

"Single issue"
You blame me for not being completely neutral, than what's this? Why do you hate the PvdD so much? They claim NOT to be a one issue party. See http://www.partijvoordedieren.nl/download/scholieren/De%20Geschiedenis%20van%20de%20Partij%20voor%20de%20Dieren.pdf, section 2.2 More issues. If you believe they are, proclaim it somewhere else, not here on Wikipedia. If you want to stigmatise them, at least have the decency to cite a source. Say something like "She leads the animal rights party PvdA, a party conservative magazine Elsevier has repeatedly called a one-issue party". NB: I am not a supporter of the PvdD. I am not here on Wikipedia to advertise for them. I support Groenlinks. We are on the same page here. Why be so hostile? Baldrick90 (talk) 12:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would certainly claim that the statement was as neutral as "fights for animal rights" (this implies that there is a good fight to be fought for animal rights), but I can certainly settle for the current wording. C mon (talk) 12:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Sharon den Adel
According to http://www.sharondenadel.net/information/trivia/ Sharon "is a vegetarian. She doesn’t eat red meat and only once a week she eats white meat like chicken or fish." This does not make any sense: vegetarianism is a practice of not eating any kind of meat. Therefore she can't qualify not even as a pesco-vegetarian.--Sigurdas (talk) 03:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. This already came up on Talk:Sharon den Adel and Ms den Adel is no longer listed in the Dutch vegetarians category. DrFishcake (talk) 10:39, 29 March 2009 (UTC)