Talk:List of Elfen Lied characters/Archive 1

Justification of my edits
I've been bold and done a major edit on this article:


 * 1) Kouta is indeed Kouta and not Kōta, the characters of his name do not contain a long "ō" which is indicated by "ー". Kouta's name is actually broken up like this: コ(ko)ウ(u)タ(ta).
 * 2) I changed the seiyu, voice actor format. We've had this discussion before at the wikiproject. If anyone needs me to repeat myself as to why I format the way I do, just ask.
 * 3) I made misc edits to the prose. Those should be pretty obvious.

- Phorque 16:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Lucy's nonviolence towards Kurama
Both when she passes him down the hall in the beginning, and when she is smacked by him after hurting Nana, she does not attack or retaliate, despite the fact that he has taken part in experimentations on Diclonius children. Why? (the article doesn't say)--Dch111 18:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Edit: Already answered in main article discussion. --Dch111 01:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's one of those "I won't kill you, that would be too good for you, I'll let you live so I can make you suffer" things. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 02:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Nana's everyday life
Should Dan kim's popular "nana's everyday life" get a blurb within nana's section? it's really the biggest reason she has a fan following. User:Hentai_Jeff
 * While I don't know what that is, if you believe it to be important enough for inclusion then Be Bold and go ahead.-- (' 十八  |  talk ') 13:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The "biggest reason she has a fan following"? Excuse me, but I'd like to see proof of this. I, for one, am against inclusion of anything more being mentioned about the "Nana's Everyday Life" comic. It's bad enough that there is a link to it already. It's nothing more than fan fiction and, in my opinion, should not even be mentioned in this article in the first place. ChibiKareshi 10:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, the website that the comic originated from is gone, either temporarily or permanantly, but I have no idea how long it's been offline. Either way, I now know what this is, and am against it's inclusion.--  十  八  11:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * AT BEST, it merited a link in "external links; fan fiction": but no, this is not "what made Nana popular", or anything, it's just a random webcomic.--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 13:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I am suggesting that the link to the "Nana's Everyday Life" comic be removed from Nana's character section. This article is about characters in *Elfen Lied*. Think of the madness that would ensue if Wikipedia decided to link anime characters to fanfiction. ChibiKareshi 07:58, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Notable fanfiction is worthy of mention. Non-notable fanfiction isn't. You'll find, for instance, that Superman's page does have a mention of that one joke essay on how he could(n't) reproduce due to his sperm moving at lightspeed. --tjstrf talk 09:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I still have my resentments about that link sitting there. (I also have my doubts about that Superman link you mentioned, but I am not as passionate about Superman as to care.) Does this mean if I should write a comic about, say, Bandou and have enough people read it, it warrants putting a link on the section for his character? ChibiKareshi 09:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, if your comic was famous enough for an article, it would mean exactly that. Orihime Inoue has a link to Loituma Girl for the same reason. While in 98% of cases, fan culture that develops around a character is of no importance whatsoever to Wikipedia and rightfully should be removed, in the few cases where the fan culture is notable enough to be the subject of its own article, it should obviously be mentioned on the character's page. --tjstrf talk 10:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * But when the website that hosted said comic disappears, shouldn't the reference be taken out on that basis alone? Now that the website isn't there, if a reader comes across the comic reference in the article, they'll try to follow the link only to be led to a dead end, so I think as a courtesy for the reader it should be removed.--  十  八  10:23, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * She looks alive to me. Though rather miserable and bleeding. --tjstrf talk 10:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I'll be damned; it wasn't there the last time I checked it, albeit that was over a week ago. Either way, I'm still againsn't it's inclusion. Just how notable can you really say this comic is?--  十  八  11:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * At least between itself, the author Dan Kim, and the other comics hosted on the same site, it was notable enough to survive one of the great webcomic deletion sprees. So by webcomic standards, quite. If it were just a passing mention of her in the comic, then I'd agree the reference was trivial, but she's the main focus. --tjstrf talk 16:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

But we're talking about notability here. Is the comic notable enough for enclusion is what you should be asking. And notablility isn't an opinion. Give me one good (referenced) reason why this comic should be included in the article.--  十  八  21:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Its quality as a webcomic is completely irrelevant. Just because the comic itself was thought good enough to survive a "deletion spree" does not mean it is notable for the Elfen Lied characters article. How about some proof that this comic is relevant to Nana's fan culture? --ChibiKareshi 07:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey guys, I added the Nana's Everyday Life thing to the main article ages ago to illustrate that the anime had enough of an influence outside of Japan for a fancomic to be translated into several other languages (which is unusual for a webcomic, amirite?). I view this comic as asserting Elfen Lied's notability somewhat like a tribute album does for a recording artist. Mentioning it here, however, is just redundant and unnecessary, so let's leave it just in the main article. I'm in awe that there's so much discussion over it here. - Phorque 15:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Non-free images
It's general courtesy to flag non-free images and discuss rather than outright removing them. As mentioned on the main article talk page, the non-free images policy doesn't outright ban images as used below. though I think that top image could be moved down onto the character list and used for several characters, as recommended in the WP. (PS. I'm not new to wikipedia, I understand fair use and the policies surrounding it. Let's discuss this rather than having an edit war)  --Kraftlos (talk) 08:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Not when you were already advised they do not belong. And you do not seem to have a clear understanding of the current non-free policy that you added them, then put them back. The one group image is acceptable. 1-2 more group images to illustrate some of the major character groupings could be acceptable. Individual is not. To read up on this: Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 32 and Non-free content. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 14:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, not a blanket ban on individual pictures. It DOES say that you should try to use an official cast shot when possible to cover multiple items, like I proposed.  And you cannot have a picture for EVERY character.  However nothing here says you can't have ANY individual character non-free images.  I've read all the discussions and I'm still not seeing where you are coming from.  I'm going to discuss it more on the main page.  --Kraftlos (talk) 18:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * sigh* Believe what you like. I've already been through the process on multiple character lists. If you add them back, I won't revert, but I'm going ahead and leaving a note at WP:NONFREE for additional views. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 18:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Merger Proposal
Most of the content on the Lucy and Nyū page is unsourced. We should salvage what we can and delete the article. There's no real reason for them to have their own article. --Kraftlos (talk) 10:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I support this merger. I have not seen much information about Lucy/Nyū that could be used to develop the necessary real-world aspects of a standalone article, or show that they pass the notability requirements. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 13:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I just went through the Lucy/Nyū article and there literally is nothing here that was based on independant sources. It just looks like original research.  Any problems with just flagging it for deletion and skipping the merger altogether?  --Kraftlos (talk) 22:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you cull through the stuff, and see what is left going by what is based on just the primary sources? -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 20:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The only thing that is sourced on the page is from a dvd review from ANN. I don't think there are any details on this page that are necessary or that haven't already been covered in the main page or the character list.  --Kraftlos (talk) 20:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. But we need to extend some of the details, and possibly the image, in the character articles. æt'ə' rnal ðrAعon 02:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The result was merge into List of Elfen Lied characters -- Kraftlos (talk) 21:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Catagories
I've noticed that there's a Diclonius category just for Nyu/Lucy and another category called "Silpelits and other subjects" for the other lab subjects; is there a reason for this? It confused me because Nana was referred to as a Diclonius in Chapter 13 of the manga. --Kraftlos (talk) 06:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably someone getting a little too happy with the cats. I'd CFD them (or CSD if they are empty and have been for two weeks) -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 06:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't really mean categories, like wikipedia categories. I just mean that on this list Lucy is listed as Diclonius and the others are listed as someone else.  If I don't have a justification for this in the next 4-5 days, I'm going to just assume that it's some fan conjecture and list them all as diclonius.  I do realize that Lucy is somewhat different from the others, but she's more like the queen diclonius, not a totally different species.  --Kraftlos (talk) 06:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, duh. That's what I get for not looking at the list again first :P I don't get why its like that either. Haven't seen the series, but from what I read in the main, they are all diclonius. Though maybe it would be better to rearrange the list into protagonist, antagonist, and supporting character sections rather than by species? -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 06:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, organizational scheme will now just be major and minor characters. Species just seemed like an unnatural break as there are antagonists and protagonists of all species.  The explanations of the distinctions between the different species seemed really excessive, and wasn't referenced.  --Kraftlos (talk) 19:58, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Better, but major/minor is considered NPOV by some. Protagonist/antagonist/supporting would be a more neutral split. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 20:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I don't want to make a bunch of edits and since some of these characters are only in the manga I haven't seen all of them. I'll come back to it later and re-categorize them after I've seen all the characters and understand their roles. --Kraftlos (talk) 21:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikification
I'm rewriting this page for encyclopedic tone and adding references. This is going to be somewhat slow because I will be doing this while I read through the manga series, so bear with me. If you can get to it faster, be my guest! --Kraftlos (talk) 09:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Much appreciated! :) -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 06:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In terms of adding references, I notice that several text and video game articles use dialogue from the series as inline citations. Shall we do the same here? æt'ə' rnal ðrAعon 10:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Referencing
I cannot stress this enough. Do not remove the fact tags on the page, they are placeholders that I have put in as I read the manga. If you want to remove them, replace them with a reference, otherwise just hold your horses and wait for me to get to them. I'm not challenging the plot details, I'm referencing them. Not a big deal. --kraftlos (talk) 21:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Intro
I'm attempting to put together a solid lead for the article using List of Naruto characters as a guide; there didn't appear to be too many character lists with substantial leads so I'm trying to copy the structure of the Naruto list without copying the wording entirely. I'd like to finish out the second paragraph by talking about Yuka and Lucy, another sentence about the antagonists, and maybe a third about the general story, without getting too plotty. I haven't been able to come up with any character creation/reception information so this will have to do for now -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 07:01, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Comments for improvement
I saw your request for comments on User talk:Goodraise. For now, I will just provide a summary of the more pressing issues that I found after scanning through the article (in addition to the existing cleanup templates). G.A.S talk 06:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Secondary titles

At the moment all of the characters' information are provided in a dictionary list format, which is quite unusual for a separate character list: ====Yuka==== ;Yuka (ユカ): Yuka is Kohta's cousin around his age and moves in with...

This should be updated to use the normal paragraph layout as used in the other character lists:

====Yuka==== Yuka (ユカ) is Kohta's cousin around his age and moves in with...

Consider writing a brief intro for this section for the common items of the character (e.g. voice actor, age, that the character has different personalities, etc.), before going into the details using subheadings.
 * Lucy/Nyu
 * Just trimmed out a chunk of plot summary. I think the whole section could use a re-write.  -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 10:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, most of the article could do with a rewrite... G.A.S talk 11:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I guess my earlier re-writes were more summary of existing content, I guess its time to eliminate extraneous detail and reduce plot summary. I'm going to work on this article all week.  -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 11:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Consider using Anime voices or Anime voices2.
 * Voices
 * I think I took care of this one in that last pass. -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 10:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That should do:) G.A.S talk 11:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not worried a small amount of fact's, but the article has very little sources overall. Information in the lead should be sourced if it is not sourced elsewhere in the article.
 * Sources
 * Ok, I was under the impression that the leads of articles should be clear of footnotes unless absolutely necessary, as the lead is a summary of what's comes later in the article. -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 10:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct, though the lead sometimes contains facts not present elsewhere (i.e. the third paragraph of List of Naruto characters). G.A.S talk 11:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I recommend cleaning up the in-universe perspective before working too hard on the coverage element.
 * Completeness and coverage
 * This one is going to take some time... It seems like people see an example that uses a brief plot snippet and they think they need to add a summary of the rest of that character's involvement in the plot... -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 10:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Good luck with this one... the problem does seem to go away once the in-universe perspective is fixed and people realise that Wikipedia is not a plot summary. G.A.S talk 11:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Why are the characters' sections indented? I have yet to see another character list for WP:ANIME that does this (except when there is a list in the main article) G.A.S talk 09:59, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Indent
 * I just was thinking the same thing, so I killed the indents and re-added headings for other characters. We're down to 16 characters, so that's not too much of a problem (compared to cluttered look of like 25 extra characters before).  Anyway, thanks for the help! -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 10:29, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem, just shout if you need feedback again (here or elsewhere). G.A.S talk 11:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Lucy
FYI, I'm working on rewriting the Lucy section. Right now I've reorganized it as suggested, but it's going to need some work. If anyone would like to contribute, the userfied version is available here. -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 09:08, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

About who says "Kaede" in the Koata description
I think Nyuu didn't say Kaede. I think it was made to look like what was being spoken by the twins, was made to look like mere voices in his head, to which he screams out her name.--BobtheVila (talk) 09:16, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Nope I was wrong, she does say it, not him. He says what's wrong with you to her.--72.84.157.237 (talk) 19:48, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Revert
I've been away from this article for a few months, but I can see that it has taken a wrong turn. Someone has reintroduced an in-universe perspective in organizing the protagonists section which I took great pains to eliminate. Insignificant characters have been re-added and the plot summary has grown. I'm going to revert back to an August revision and try to preserve any positive contributions. Please don't take this to be a claim of ownership, I just know that these changes were not made in light of the plan that was laid out at the start of the year. If you have any suggestions or questions, feel free to reply here. Thanks. -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 06:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I performed the revert. I'm going to be combing through the dif  to reincorporate whatever is worth keeping.  On second readthrough, most of what was added in the last few months was either stuff that was intentionally removed or additional plot summary.  Anyway, I'm going to keep on working.  -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 13:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Should Lucy get her own page?
If a page was made for Lucy(based on both the anime and manga), could there be enough information for a page? I've only skimmed the manga, so I don't really know. Nemu 20:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no need to split her into her own article since it works to have her where she is already. -- (' 十八  |  talk ') 22:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It just seems as the main charater, that she could use her own page. With all three personalities (at least I think there is a third one in the manga), and all her other things, it could be a nice looking article. Nemu 22:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Be that as it may, for right now her profile simply does not have enough content to create such an article as it is unfeasible to remove her from the characters list. -- (' 十八  |  talk ') 23:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, no, the article would be much larger. That would just the base. The current information in this article would stay. There would just be a "Main article: Lucy (Elfen Lied)" thing above it. Nemu 23:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * But where would all this new information come from in the first place and not only that, but adding all of this information may end up being no more than fancruft in the eyes of Wikipedians. Also, I would have to say that it'd be a bit biased only to give Lucy her own article in that if you were so inclinded to do it for her, you should do it for the rest as well or not at all. -- (' 十八  |  talk ') 00:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be a work in progress that would hopefully have other editors helping. I would get the base information needed from chapter summaries (unless it's finaly been scanlated). It would be the base information for a fictional character (Apperance, abilities, background, personalities, brief summary of plot in the anime/manga, ect...). It wouldn't be baised, she is the main character along with Kouta. He and the minor characters don't really have enough information to have an article. There are many main characters with pages while the minor ones stay on the character page. Nemu 00:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I could help with the getting information. It would be great to see an Elfen Lied charter get a independent page. It would have to be unbiased as you suggested, since with Elfen Lied, people will tend to be biased. User:John Ryan

I am making it a personal mission to get Lucy her own page. As you can see, I've already rounded it out considerably here. No, obviously every character won't get their own page; heck I doubt even Kouta deserves his own article. But Lucy is the main character of the show and thus more than probably merits her own page. I will look over some other characters who have their own pages and wikiprojectanime's criteria for "What justifies and independent article" and get it done. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 04:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I could use some help bringing this up to code: Lucy (Elfen Lied) --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 06:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they already deleted Lucy's page since it was "unsourced". We should bring it back, though, WITH sources this time, so nobody would complain. Who agrees?

I agree totally! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.80.22.126 (talk) 17:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's going to be hard, there's likely very little to create an article from. As far as I know there isn't a lot about the character Lucy in English, though you might check magazine articles and possibly dvd commentary.  Aside form you would probably need sources that are not in English, which, presuming such material exists, would be tricky.  I'm planning to do a total re-write of the Lucy section, and so far I haven't seen enough sources that would allow for a separate article.  It would be better to have a quality character list without sub-articles, than a mediocre list and several character stubs.  -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 12:19, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

3 personalities - nyu/kaede/lucy
In the manga doesn't there seem to be 3 personalities to Nyu/Lucy/Kaede? After all there was 2 "good" personalities being Nyu and Kaede, while the Lucy character was just evil. I think this is clearly demonstrated in the manga in the last battle when the two good personalities comes out and protects Kohta from the evil rampaging one. If the argument is based on the heavily implied reincarnations of Nyu/Kaede, as there are only 2 of them, I think it would be fair to say that the evil personality did not come back. currently the section only treats it as 2 personalities, i think that it should be changed. Zijian (talk) 21:34, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Good suggestion, I'll look into that. -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 20:45, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not a personality. It's just Nyu pretending to be Kohta's sister. Freebullets (talk) 04:27, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's kind of what I thought, I never got the impression that there were three personalities. Lucy is what became of the kid Khota once knew, but she's been through so much that she's totally embittered.  -- Kraftlos  (Talk | Contrib) 13:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Well Lucy herself says at one point that she got three personalities ( the exact quote was "i got two personalities in addition to myself" : Nyu who is the good one ( not corrupted by her instincts), the personality created by her instincts (which is urging lucy to kill and sometimes act at her place) and lucy/kaede, who seems to be torn by her own humanity and the strong voice of her instincts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.245.52.17 (talk) 05:15, 21 July 2010 (UTC)