Talk:List of England cricket captains

Photos
Is it really beyond the wit to add photos of every modern captain? Are there no photos of Cowdrey, for example? Seriously???

Untitled
You should check your list, from what I know, Groucho Marx never played such a decadent game. --Pgreenfinch 16:21, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Troll off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.97.111 (talk) 19:05, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

One-day captains
Here's a thought - shouldn't the list make some reference to Adam Hollioake's period as captain of England's one-day side? While he wasn't the full captain at the time - it was made clear that the Test captain at the time was the more important - he was an England captain., so should probably be included in the list. NickBarlow 16:04, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * There are other examples of men who have captained the ODI side, but not the Test side. Knott springs to mind. I was going to add a separate table for ODI captains at the bottom of this article, but haven't gotten round to it yet. I also want to add a reference to Gooch and Gatting captaining rebel Tests in South Africa, jguk 17:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Rebel Tours
I'm unhappy at the rebl tours being included in this list. The tours were not organised via the ICC/TCCB and so have no more validity as "England Test Matches" as a match between English and Australian Journalists during an ashes tour. --Timdownie 21:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't bother me, because the rubric makes it perfectly clear that those tours have no official status. I wouldn't mind losing them either, though, if that was the consensus. Stephen Turner (Talk) 09:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I added these as the rebel tours are a part of cricket history that fascinates me. If the section is to leave this page, at least move it to a separate rebel tours page and provide a link to it on this page, jguk 18:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I also see no reason for the matches to be listed: they have nothing to do with the England cricket team, so I'm ditching them. Spike &#39;em (talk) 11:21, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "they have nothing to do with the England cricket team" - what utter nonsense.
 * p.s. there is a South African rebel tours that could be linked to if so desired. Spike &#39;em (talk) 11:33, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

missing U-19 captain feb 2007?
and the answer is... Ben Wright (cricketer) 81.157.225.167 23:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

C. Aubrey Smith
I added the initial C., because his name is rarely seen without it. Then, since "Sir C. Aubrey Smith" didn't link to his bio page, I removed the Sir. This is consistent with the treament of F.S. Jackson and L.H. Tennyson in the list, who were both Hon.s when they captained England, and only became Sir and Lord, respectively, later.KD Tries Again (talk) 14:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Intro paragraph.
I think that the whole lead paragraph needs a cleanup as most of it is a history of the English Cricket Team. I'll do it myself but as I'd be removing large sections of text I thought I'd get consensus first. Thanks, --Searle, L. (talk) 03:38, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move
move per request.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

List of English national cricket captains → List of England cricket captains — move to match format of national team articles (England, Ireland and West Indies are exceptions in that they don't take the "national"); see WT:CRIC. They are captains of Foo (cricket team), not captains from Foo. &mdash;User:MDCollins (talk) 00:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * List of Kenyan national cricket captains → List of Kenya national cricket captains
 * List of American national cricket captains → List of United States national cricket captains
 * List of Australian national cricket captains → List of Australia national cricket captains
 * List of Bangladeshi national cricket captains → List of Bangladesh national cricket captains
 * List of Bermudian national cricket captains → List of Bermuda national cricket captains
 * List of Canadian national cricket captains → List of Canada national cricket captains
 * List of Dutch national cricket captains → List of Netherlands national cricket captains
 * List of East African national cricket captains → List of East Africa national cricket captains
 * List of Indian national cricket captains → List of India national cricket captains
 * List of Irish national cricket captains → List of Ireland cricket captains
 * List of Namibian national cricket captains → List of Namibia national cricket captains
 * List of Pakistani national cricket captains → List of Pakistan national cricket captains
 * List of South African national cricket captains → List of South Africa national cricket captains
 * List of Zimbabwean national cricket captains → List of Zimbabwe national cricket captains
 * List of Scottish national cricket captains → List of Scotland national cricket captains
 * List of Sri Lankan national cricket captains → List of Sri Lanka national cricket captains
 * List of United Arab Emirati national cricket captains → List of United Arab Emirates national cricket captains
 * List of West Indian national cricket captains → List of West Indies cricket captains
 * List of Tasmanian cricket captains → List of Tasmania cricket captains


 * Support all per nomination except for List of America national cricket teams. There may have been some justification for the use of the generic term "American" when the lists were using the collective noun for citizens of a nation. There is no justification now that the lists are proposed to move to team names. The team represents (and is named for) the "United States of America" not "America", which is a wider geographical area. Given the team article is at United States national cricket team perhaps List of United States national cricket captains may be acceptable but I would prefer List of United States of America national cricket captains. -- Mattinbgn\talk 04:29, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: Good point re:America. My mistake. I've changed it for now to your first suggestion, which matches the team name as we'd need further consensus to change it to United States of America (for all of their sporting articles (well, at least the cricket ones).&mdash;User:MDCollins (talk) 10:48, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose The current proposal grammatically incorrect. The only way to make it work would be to make the countries possessive ex: "List of XXXXXXX's cricket captains". If you don't want the apostrophe S you will have to use the singular for a country's national (Kenyan, Irish, etc).--Labattblueboy (talk) 20:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'm not sure about that. Would you have List of Manchester United F.C. captains or List of Manchester United F.C.'s captains/List of captains of Manchester United?&mdash;User:MDCollins (talk) 22:04, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * List of Manchester United F.C. captains would be correct because there is no singular to Manchester United F.C.. Singular tense is possible with national team members, hence the difference.--Labattblueboy (talk) 12:18, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Firstly, the possessive doesn't work as a general rule, as can be seen by the example given by MDCollins. Secondly, the proposed article names are only "grammatically incorrect' because of the broad consensus about national team naming which is usually ["Nation_name" national "sport" team]. This usage is normally extended to categories and lists. See List of England national football team managers and Category:Canada international rugby union players. The names proposed above are no more grammatically incorrect than this broad consensus.
 * Thirdly, use of the adjectival "Kenyan", "Irish" etc. is not a solution either. You do not have to be English to captain the English national cricket team (see Mike Denness for example) and Kevin Pietersen and Andrew Strauss are South Africans who have captained a national cricket team, but it wasn't the South Africa national cricket team. The proposed names given&mdash;while perhaps not the most elegant English&mdash;are clear, concise and unambiguous and I again support their use. -- Mattinbgn\talk 03:42, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I also agree that possessive would be a bad idea. I haven't see such a consensus but I will agree that its inconsistent across the board. Interestingly the article you reference redirects to England national football team manager, which is grammatically correct. The Country name + sports team format works because the teams are singular, ie Australia national cricket team not Australia national cricket team s (The proper grammar in a case of plural teams would be Australia n national cricket team s ). In the suggested move captain is plural, not singular.--Labattblueboy (talk) 12:18, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Support Oh, and it's perfectly fine grammatically. Aside from arguments above, that's a misunderstanding of the nature of the various national cricket teams, for whom many, many, many people not of that nationality have played (and do so to this day) . --Dweller (talk) 18:10, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Support move per nom, Mattinbgn and Dweller.  Harrias  talk 21:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Support Per the rationale of the nominator. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 17:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Support per the convincing rationale of Mattinbgn. Thank goodness we have so many South Africans or else we'd be rubbish.....!! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Recentism in lead
I admit I've made this problem worse, but let's try to fix it now. Four paragraphs is a reasonable length for a lead section, but it's currently split as follows:

Parag 1: Approx 100 years of history Parag 2,3 and 4: Approx 30 years of history

There are other problems, too. The article covers all forms of England captaincy, but the lead understandably mostly covers Test captains. Perhaps before we overhaul the article for recentism, we need to first discuss if the other elements should be retained here, or should be split off into parallel list articles. --Dweller (talk) 08:24, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph is appropriate as it talks about the history of the England captaincy as a concept. The next three paragraphs should be summarily removed as they are not about the concept but merely a potted (and spotty) history of the various captains. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 00:23, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment - should we have separate lists for different types of captaincy?
Options could be:

a) All types of captaincy here (status quo) b) Split by sex - male captains / female captains c) Split by age - adult teams / youth teams d) Split by forms of cricket - Tests / ODIs / 20:20

Note that if you opt not to go for option a, you could be opting for one, two or three of a b and c.

Opinions please? --Dweller (talk) 08:24, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that this article should be kept for the captains of the England senior men's cricket team, but of all forms of cricket, perhaps with separate lists within the page. My reason for this is that when people search for "List of England cricket captains", without wanting to sound chauvinist, they will most likely be searching for the men's team. They will also likely be searching for Test cricket captains, but I believe this page should cover all three forms. I believe there should be a separate page for women's Test, ODI and T20 captains, but I'm not sure about whether we need a list of England U19 captains. That strikes me as a little crufty. – PeeJay 20:17, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with PeeJay. JH (talk page) 08:53, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The more developed lists (Men's Test captain, Men's ODI captain. Women's Test captain etc.) ought to be split out into their own list, linked to through a main link. The large table here would then be replaced by a summary table featuring a simple name and no. of matches in charge. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 00:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we should certainly split men's and women's lists, so as a minimum we should have:


 * List of Foo (national) cricket captains
 * List of Foo women (national) cricket captains
 * Whether we then split some of the lists down further I think is probably a further discussion. With regards to Under-19, I think given the short nature of many of the articles on the Under-19 teams themselves, those lists would probably be best merged into the parents articles on the teams.  Harrias  talk 09:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

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Morgan ODI no results
According to cricinfo (as of 1 March 2021) Morgan had 120 matches as captain, including 7 No results. This includes this match which was abandoned without a ball being bowled, but after the toss. These games are officially recorded as a match (also mentioned here with an explanation). If anyone has a different source to use that does not count this game, then please raise it here. Spike &#39;em (talk) 10:08, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

ODI Captains
In the part about Eoin Morgan being the only captain to lift a trophy for England it should state that he's the only captain to lift an ODI trophy as Collingwood lifted the t20 world cup in, I think, 2007. Cheers, Dave 2A00:23C6:F389:3801:591:3FFB:D9C4:520F (talk) 12:40, 25 June 2022 (UTC)