Talk:List of Estonian Americans

Ethnicity lists discussion
Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for current discussion of a potential policy to apply to all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia, including this one. JackO&#39;Lantern 20:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Massive removals, September 11, 2008
See. A vast number of individuals were removed from the article as "unsourced," but most of which had sources. Such a mode of editing amounts to WP:Vandalism. Please restore the text and use "fact" tags to improve, rather than deplete our articles, which have been laboriously built up over a period of years. Thank you for this consideration. Badagnani (talk) 05:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. As I put in the edit summary. Bulldog123 (talk) 05:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry but I don't think it's funny any more, Bulldog123. Removing names from the list that are sourced is not acceptable. Removing Taagepera who has been a nominee for presidency of the Republic of Estonia is sorry but completely far out. Did you ever bother to click on the refs? --Termer (talk) 05:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The thing is, you're the one who's not looking at the sources. It's totally justified to removed sourced material when it is sourced improperly (perhaps sometimes lazily, perhaps sometimes maliciously). It might be obvious that Taagepera (for example) is Estonian but the sources might not say that in the way they should. That's only your personal knowledge of the person. If that's the case they're not proper. If you still don't understand, leave me a message on my talk page. Right now, I say you calm down on the revert warring. Bulldog123 (talk) 21:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Massive removals, September 12, 2008
See. Badagnani (talk) 12:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * RE: Bulldog123 Taagepera (the wife) needs a claim for notability.


 * Fair enough: there are 52 secondary sources on Mare Taagepera @ google books and 36 primary sources, works of Mare Taagepera @ google scholar--Termer (talk) 15:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * PS. Regarding either Estonian born Jews should be a part of the list, I guess could be open for discussion. I think it's still interesting to know from where any people have come from and I'd keep them part of the list. And since this has been the consensus so far I don't see any reasons to remove them either at this point.--Termer (talk) 15:54, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * PPS. But removing names that have linked articles on WP on people that are clearly either Estonian descent or even born in Estonia doesn't make any sense. In case more refs or sources are needed, feel free to request. I can always admit that for someone who considers something common knowledge like the listed names in the article, might miss the necessity to source it even further. this doesn't mean that anything here shouldn't be better or more clearly sourced, so feel free to help out and list the names that you think would need better sourcing. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 16:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well a simple google search of Mare kinda gives away that she may not pass WP:PROF http://www.chem.uci.edu/faculty/mtaagepe/. "Clearly of Estonian descent" is a WP:OR situation, especially concerning the qualifications of "Estonian American", which you can't make up on your own. I don't know how many times this has to be said. You have a category called Category:Americans of Estonian descent for people who you could source as having a background that is Estonian. However, your source for Kahn calls him a "Jew", not an Estonian, and also, he wasn't born in a territory that could be considered Estonia then - the population of the territory was completely different. Therefore, you need something stronger to add Kahn. Bulldog123 (talk) 21:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Termer's comment above. Badagnani (talk) 17:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

And again,. Badagnani (talk) 21:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

RE: Bulldog123 well, in case you think Mare Taagepera is not notable enough as an American, she is as a Honorary Member of the Estonian Chemical Society. Regarding Kahn, he was born in the Governorate of Estonia and I have no idea what you mean by the population of the territory was completely different. It was about 90% ethnically Estonian back then and now about 70%. How exactly is this relevant I have no idea.--Termer (talk) 21:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * He was born in what was then Russia, as a Jew. Back then Estonia consisted of many Russians and Baltic Germans (in addition to Jews) Do you have proof that he is generally considered an "Estonian American?" If so fine. These lists are causing a problem that can be solved by, instead, adding the notable to the mainpage (as I have already done for some): Estonian Americans. Bulldog123 (talk) 21:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "It" has never been Russia like Scotland has never been England. "It" was part of Russian Empire like Scotland was part of British Empire or is part of Great Britain nowadays. I don't see any problems, this is not an article about racial or ethnic purity but a list of Americans that have roots in Estonia.--Termer (talk) 21:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

And again,. Badagnani (talk) 21:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with User:Termer: "this is not an article about racial or ethnic purity but a list of Americans that have roots in Estonia." Badagnani (talk) 21:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * And for some reason Bulldog123 keeps removing names from the article who have actually born in Estonia, are ethnic Estonians, the articles about them say so and are sourced, people who only have moved to the US and have become naturalized Americans. And keeping some ethnic Jews from Estonia part of the list and removing others, there should be some reasoning that makes sense behind this. Sorry but whatever motivates Bulldog123' edits, it doesn't make any sense to me. --Termer (talk) 21:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * RE (from User_talk:Termer) :Here's an example that you need to do: List of Brazilian Americans. Born in Estonia (without a qualification for another ethnicity - like German, Jewish, etc), or deemed an "Estonian American" and you can re-add everyone. Bulldog123 (talk) 21:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * After mentioning Scotland vs. British Empire; Estonia vs. Russian Empire, it is interesting that none of the names have been removed by Bulldog123 from List_of_Scottish_Americans even though there are no sources provided whatsoever. How would you explain the double standards here? Why is there for example on the list of Scottish_Americans Tim McGraw, American singer (father is Scots-Irish, mother is Italian-Irish)??--Termer (talk) 22:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - The logic, or lack thereof, behind User:Bulldog123's edits is not the issue; it is the hyperaggressive manner of editing, specifically the lack of prior discussion and consensus before blanking sourced text (and sometimes entire articles). Lack of attention to such a problematic manner of editing poses a severe problem for our project. Badagnani (talk) 23:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * PS. at the same time, just one example, an American conductor Born in Estonia (without a qualification for another ethnicity - like German, Jewish, etc) Kristjan Järvi against the made up "rules" above gets removed by Bulldog123. How exactly all this makes sense?--Termer (talk) 22:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe User:Termer should check his diffs and note that I had added Kristjen Jarvi back to the list when it was lost in the edit warring. User:Termer should also note that List of Scottish Americans is too big a list to deal with now, and WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS should not be a justifications for issues here. Also, if you prefer that I refer to you directly instead of saying User:Termer, please be respectful enough to do the same to me. Thanks. Bulldog123 (talk) 23:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Kristjan Järvi was clearly added back by ExRat. And I believe you have identified yourself as Bulldog123, therefore in case it's not respectful enough, please let me know how should you be addressed. Please stop edit warring Bulldog123 and stop removing well sourced names from the list.--Termer (talk) 23:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I added it back in my revert - but then somebody reverted it back to the old version which didn't include it. I'm tired of talking to someone who intentionally plays "dumb" in order to forgoe responsibility. I discussed with you what sources are needed and you blanked your page. Therefore, I will no longer discuss anything with you unless you choose to restore my comments. Thank you. Bulldog123 (talk) 01:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Bulldog123, please note that I have no reason to keep slapping and biting personal comments such as if I wanted to, I could slap you with a WP:VANDAL warning...you're not proving to me that you're behaving in a civil manner on my talk page. Please comment on content not on the contributor and address any possible issues you might spot in the articles on relevant talk pages. thanks!--Termer (talk) 02:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This coming from the person who's been wikistalking me, blanking my attempt at a discussion and explaination of edits with you and reverting on a grudge. Yup, mature editing. Bulldog123 (talk) 03:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I got it right! Did you Bulldog123 just accuse me of wikistalking -harassing you because I didn't tolerate I could slap you with and you're not proving to me that you're behaving in a civil manner on my talk page and asked you to comment on content on relevant talk pages instead?--Termer (talk) 06:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * So you deny reverting me on List of Danish Americans, and other such lists? This is not wikistalking? Bulldog123 (talk) 21:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Perfect example of what this list should be like
With the removal of 3 people, List of Austrian Americans is a perfect template for what this list should look like. Bulldog123 (talk) 06:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What exactly any list should look like usually is determined by WP:Consensus. You have made your ideas clear so much at least I think that in your opinion only well sourced 100% ethnic X-people who happen to be American Citizens should be listed? As far as I can tell there is no such a consensus achieved on WP that any of these lists of X-Americans should be based on such a formula. If you'd like to change the way people get listed, you'd need to bring it up first, reach a consensus instead of blanking out the lists on WP as you please.--Termer (talk) 07:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Kiino Villand

 * Kiino Villand - photographer, musician Kiino Villand @ Famous People of Estonia intersites.co.uk  "Where are you from?" "Born in Jersey, family is from Estonia."

So Bulldog123, please help me to understand, what exactly is wrong with mr Kiino Villand so that he doesn't deserve to be listed?

Would the Estonian House in Los Angeles be good enough source in your opinion? Kiino Villand is a Los Angeles-based photographer/director of Estonian descent @ eesti.us

--Termer (talk) 07:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, he should be added back because I found a source that works, this was the source we needed. Notice how it says directly he is "Estonian American". Bulldog123 (talk) 08:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

yet again, I have no idea what are you talking about. The source you provided does not mention Kiino Villand but talks about Estonian-American journalist Priit Vesilind.--Termer (talk) 09:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah. My paste isn't working at all. I meant to put: - where you can scroll to the tags. Bulldog123 (talk) 21:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Kiino Villand is Hungarian American journalist now according to this source who should be listed together with Estonian Americans? OK, I give up, I think we'd need to proceed differently with this situation. Since the situation is getting outright...awkward.--Termer (talk) 09:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ugh sorry. I meant to put Estonian photographer. My paste isn't working. Bulldog123 (talk) 20:55, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

James Tusty

 * James Tusty - Film director James Tusty is a first-generation American of Estonian descent @ examiner.com ; James Tusty, who is of Estonian descent

What's wrong with this guy and his refs? --Termer (talk) 07:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * So this source: http://www.freemuse.org/sw22342.asp says Tusty's father was Estonian which justifies him as "of Estonian descent" (as your source says) and so he qualifies perfectly for Category:Americans of Estonian descent. Unfortunately, jumping from step 1 (His father was Estonian) to step 2 (that means he's Estonian) can't be done by us. We need to find either a source that calls him "Estonian". We do this in order to avoid situations where people can be added that are 1/16th Estonian, and hence a source could say "they are of Estonian descent". If Tusty is well known as an Estonian, you shouldn't have a problem finding the source. The fact that we haven't found one is indicative of something. This should be applied to all lists; I'm not only "picking" on this list. Bulldog123 (talk) 08:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, I'm glad you put this here, Termer. This is exactly what you should have been doing from the beginning instead of blanking your talk page and revert warring. Also, if you feel I have "threatened" you anywhere, please tell me where, and I'll apologize. I only see where I said I could call you a vandal (as you call me). This doesn't seem a threat. Bulldog123 (talk) 08:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you accusing me of calling you a vandal? I have not used such words unlike you just did! regarding what should have I done, I'm going to disagree. You should have first addressed any issues you had with the lists at talk pages, try to reach a consensus before going on edit warring against about 4-5 editors and blanking selectively the X-Americans lists.--Termer (talk) 08:59, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * They weren't blanked. They were merged. Do you know the difference? Bulldog123 (talk) 20:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Merging in such a manner would, following our WP working process, require prior discussion and consensus, out of normal courtesy to our editing colleagues, as WP is a collaborative project. The fact that the undiscussed, unilateral merge was objected to, then it was rammed through by reverts again and again, says something very strongly. Badagnani (talk) 20:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You can stop with this "prior discussion" because you well-know one was started. The lack of response justified all movements afterwards. But slapping me with "vandal" tags was not justified, as it was an attempt for you to gain an edge. Bulldog123 (talk) 21:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Sourcing restored
Removed sourcing restored. Per the lead of Estonian American, Badagnani (talk) 16:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)