Talk:List of Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War characters

Merge of Tiltyu and Lex
Will be merged unless anyone can engender any reasonable objections. Ashnard Talk  Contribs  16:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Ayra Merge
Ayra has now been merged into here for lack of out-of-universe relevance. If you have any objections, please stae them here. Thanks. Ashnard Talk  Contribs  08:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You also merged the article on Sigurd. I had retrieved the lost in-universe information on Ayra from the former article back on Wikipedia, and it is on this article, thus disabbreviating the Ayra section.  The Ayra section should not be short, due to possible biased issues.  Anything about Ayra's role being short is considered biased.  The Isaacian-Grandbellian War is an important element.  Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 22:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * See your talk page for explanation. Ashnard  Talk  Contribs  07:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Undo merge
Because of a situation with TTN, I have decided that I am against the Ayra merge, as well as the Sigurd merge. Because of all that valuable information, they are worthy of having their own articles. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 00:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Those sections were flagged for summarization for about a month. Don't blame TTN for following through. Sigurd and Ira, as of this time, do not have enough notability outside of Seisen no Keifu to warrant their own articles. If they should appear in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, only then (and only after they are confirmed, no speculation) might they have enough notability for a separate article. Infernal Inferno 00:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. There's a major crackdown on all of these types of articles. They don't have enough out-of-univerese notability to warrant their own article. Ashnard  Talk  Contribs  10:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I support both Sigurd and Ayra appearing in Super Smash Bros. Brawl as playable fighters, but not as Assist Trophies. If any of the characters listed in the article appear in the game in any form other than as playable fighter, that would be mentioned in the article, but might not warrant a separate article.  What would be included in those articles would be the in-universe information and the Super Smash Bros. related information.  The dispute on Ayra appearing in the game would be mentioned as well if she appears as a playable character, and it would be mentioned that she was the first non-Lord ally female to appear in a Super Smash Bros. game.  Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 01:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * We'll just have to wait until we get more info on the game. Ashnard  Talk  Contribs  08:14, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Although Ike from Path of Radiance is confirmed to be playable in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, he still does not have a separate Wikipedia article. This is due to the recent crackdown on Fire Emblem character articles. I am personally opposed to the crackdown. If Ike, Sigurd, or Ayra are successful as playable characters, that will greatly warrant them to have their own Wikipedia articles. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 15:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It would have the same notability as Marth and Roy's articles apart from Marth's appearance in the anime. I can't see much reason for not having the Ike article, although somebody may conclude that the Roy and Marth articles aren't notable to maintain consistency as opposed to the Ike article being created. Ashnard  Talk  Contribs  16:37, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Content Concerns
My first concern is that some of the terms used are inaccessible to people who are not already familiar with the subject. Use of the character archetypes - Kain, Abel, Nabarl, Oguma, etc. - is very unclear to anybody who doesn't already know about them, especially since the article that used to exist on the subject has been removed. Additionally, archetypes can often lead to pointless debates about whether a certain unit is 'truly' a member of that archetype. Another poor term is 'predestined,' which once again will be unclear to those unfamiliar with the love system.

Another issue is that some of the material is presented in the fashion of a game guide. Making suggestions of what pairings to use or telling how to get Arden his Pursuit Ring is the realm of game guides, not encyclopedias. Other things like listing of skills might fall under this too. I believe the information about who is predestined for whom should also be rewritten from a character/story-based and not gameplay-based perspective. For example, instead of writing "[Azel] is predestined for Aideen and Tiltyu," one might write "Azel has romantic feelings towards Aideen and Tiltyu."

One last thing is the uneven treatment of many characters in terms of provided information. Sigurd, Ayra, and Tiltyu have far larger sections than the other characters, while a few have less than a line of text (at least at the screen resolution I use.) Efforts should be made to expand those who have too little written about them and reduce non-relevant information about those who have too much. Some might require a simple rewrite, such as Lex's section which goes off into tangents about the obtainability of certain Holy Weapons, which is irrelevant to Lex because he can't wield any of them.

I'm going to try to correct these issues myself at some point, but at the moment I don't feel I have enough experience with the characters and plot of the game to comfortably make major changes. Infernal Inferno 07:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Vey valid points. For the archetypes, I delete them whenever I see them &mdash; but I haven't had a major run through of this article so there will be some lurking about. The fact is that much of the content has came from mergers, where it was originally part of its own article, which is why some sections may be longer than others. I've addressed the "predestined" thing on User talk: Tedius Zanarukando (the perdomiant writer of this article), but he failed to respond. I may also go through this and edit out the minutiae and game-guide. Ashnard  Talk  Contribs  09:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I have removed all references to character archetypes I know of in this article. I looked for Jeigan, Kain, Abel, Nabarl, and Oguma. If anyone knows of additional archetypes that might have made it in, please feel free to look for and delete them. Infernal Inferno 01:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

O Celice, where art thou?
Celice redirects to this page. Depsite being mentioned numerous times on the page, he has no section for himself. A strange omission, considering he is one of the game's Lords. Why was the content from his original article not transferred? If nobody objects, I will create a space for Celice here and transfer all or part of the content from the version of his article before the redirect version. Infernal Inferno 03:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have a clue. I wasn't watching this page but when merging all the stuff I noticed that he wasn't there. Ask User: Tedius Zanarukando &mdash; he's basically the major contributor to this page. I doubt you'll get a response though. Ashnard  Talk  Contribs  08:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I moved the bio section of the last pre-redirect version of the Celice article over to this article, right below Sigurd. As seems to be the case with merged content, someone needs to summarize it; it has been flagged as such. Unfortunately, I can't do that right now as I am going to lose access to the internet for a week or so here. Infernal Inferno 08:22, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I haven't played the games so I'm not aware of what's totally relevant and what isn't. Ashnard  <sub style="color:red;">Talk  <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  10:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Move?
Shouldn't this be List of characters in Seisen no Keifu as opposed to the current title? Ashnard <sub style="color:red;">Talk  <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  11:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's inconsistent with the title of the main article(Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu.) The article for the game's plot (Fire Emblem Holy War story) has the same problem, but worse. I'd say this should be moved to List of characters in Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu. As for the plot article, well I don't see why it needs to be separate, as none of the other FE articles have a separate plot article. It just needs massive summarization after a merge with the main article. Infernal Inferno 19:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I totally agree with both points. I'll get this moved tomorrow. Should we address the story article at AfD. Ashnard  <sub style="color:red;">Talk  <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  22:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No we should not address the story article at AfD. That will cause a huge loss of information.  It is important that we should know the story of the game. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 05:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about a merge then? Ashnard  <sub style="color:red;">Talk  <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  08:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Super Smash Bros.
If any of the characters get to appear in the Super Smash Bros. series in any way, such as a playable character or trophy, that should be included in the article. The characters speculated to be playable in Super Smash Bros. Brawl are Sigurd and Ayra. Sigurd is most likely going to appear as a playable character, but the chances of Ayra being playable are greatly disputed in the forums. Although Sakurai is considering the possibility of having non-Lords as playable characters, Ayra is the most controversial Fire Emblem related character suggestion for Brawl. I do not want disputes about her being in Brawl on this discussion. There have already been enough those disputes in Nintendo.com Nsider message board. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 05:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If they appear in the game as playable characters, this may warrant them having their own article. I expect quite alot of FE characters to appear as them cameo trophies that appear in battle like Samurai Goroh. Ashnard <sub style="color:red;">Talk  <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  08:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You mean Assist Trophies? It is redundant to have Fire Emblem characters like Lyndis or Ayra or another Swordmaster to appear as an Assist Trophy, because Samurai Goroh is already there to serve that purpose as an Assist Trophy.  There are many Assist Trophy possibilities outside Fire Emblem, that Fire Emblem Assist Trophies (except for Merlinus or those monsters from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones) would be redundant.  I also expect that a few non-Lords appear as playable characters, not necessarily Ayra (as I most requested), but the Fire Emblem playable roster will be mostly Lords.  I support Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu being represented in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.  Sigurd and Ayra are the only characters who are nominated to be playable in the Super Smash Bros. series.  If they get to be playable, it will be mentioned in this article, and their Super Smash Bros. renditions will be put on this article.  Appearing as a playable character in the Super Smash Bros. series warrants these characters to have their own Wikipedia articles.  Sigurd and Ayra are actually worthy of having their own articles even if they do not appear in Super Smash Bros. Brawl in any form.  Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 22:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I have heard on the Nintendo Nsider board that Sigurd is likely to appear in Super Smash Bros. Brawl as a playable character. It has been discussed several times before. It was said that Sigurd is Sakurai's favorite Fire Emblem Lord. Just about anyone agrees that Sigurd is most likely to appear in Super Smash Bros. Brawl as a playable character.

For Ayra, that is a different story. For one thing Masahiro Sakurai mentioned in his journal that he is considering at least one non-Lord as a playable character. However the Fire Emblem lineup for Super Smash Bros. Brawl will be mostly Lords, possibly having either one or two slots for non-Lords. Mia from Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance is the closest mentioned thing to Ayra in the journal. At Nsider board, the Ayra request has been criticized for the character being allegedly insignificant, and there has a been an epic dispute regarding her appearing as a playable character. A rejection threat was done to push the debate. After a prolonged analysis, I have concluded that Ayra will work well as a playable character. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 00:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe Nintendo will be planning an old Lord in conjunction with a Virtual Console release? Like a Roy-style advertisement. If they do introduce a non-Lord character, it will most lilkely be a major antangonist. Someone like...Ashnard? ;-). Ashnard <sub style="color:red;">Talk  <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  10:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * An advertisement of a Virtual Console release is unlikely. A Roy-style advertisement is not necessary at this point in time.  There is a chance that a Hero or Swordmaster character be introduced to Super Smash Bros. series, according to Sakurai's journal.  Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 01:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Verification on Ayra's fate on Barhara Incident
I am aware that statements involving the debate on Ayra's fate on the Battle of Barhara. Is that statement about believing that Ayra survived the Battle of Barhara and living during the time of the ending actually attributable? It may take a Japanese translator who knows about such sources to verify this statement. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 04:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Just about everything here is unverifiable since nobody knows Japanese here. We need to find someone who knows Japanese. Ashnard  <sub style="color:red;">Talk  <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  17:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * While you're probably right about the difficulty of verifying anything in the article, I felt that the comments in question were moreso in violation of policies and guidelines than the rest of the article is. The statements were seemingly speculative (original research.) The verification of the statements seems unlikely even given a knowledge of Japanese or other languages, as what reputable source has surveyed people about their theories on the fate of a minor video game character (verifiability)? Non-canonical explanations and speculation on minor characters also seems rather unimportant (notability.) The statements also used quite a bit of weasel wording. That's (arguably) a violation of all three of the major policies plus a style guideline. Infernal Inferno 22:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, do you have or know of any sources? Aveyn Knight 17:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Cite the sources
In the wake of this article being tagged for being unsourced, we should hunt for reliable sources. The Fire Emblem sector of Wikipedia has already underwent a significant wikipurge as it is. One source is the game itself, or its script. Citations can include dialogue quotes that state what is in this article. Another source is the book Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu: Treasure. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 01:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * See List of characters in Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance. I've found the most 3rd-party sources that I could find, but for the rest of it, I cited the game itself. It's currently undergoing per review, but I'm going to nominate it for FL status. The same can be done for this game, as long as there's a script somewhere online. Giving to its popularity in Japan, I think I saw some Japanese sites with character info on one site, try to get a Google translation. Thanks. Ashnard  <sub style="color:red;">Talk  <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  07:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * One way to hunt for references is to play through the game through emulation with the English translation patch and read the dialogue carefully. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 01:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thinking back, the problem with this is that the translations are really dodgy and are merely that&mdash;translations. This would dent the verifiability if the names aren't even sure. Ashnard  <sub style="color:red;">Talk  <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  14:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The original Japanese script is already leaked into the Internet. You may have to learn Japanese to find out.  Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 18:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I haven't got the time to be learning languages. Maybe another day. Ashnard  <sub style="color:red;">Talk  <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  07:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Levin's fate.
What exactly happens to Levin is unknown. In one of the openings for the game, he's killed by Manfloy, presumably sometime after Barhara, and is seen as being revived by the Crusader Holsety with the Valkyrie staff. I've heard that the Levin you see in the second part of the game is actually Holsety borrowing his body. Can anyone confirm this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.65.152 (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There is this translation of the ending ctrl+F "...Well, Celice, I hate to say goodbye". When certain conditions are met the opening video is extended. You see Levin fight Manfloy, it's a close run thing but Levin is killed. He is rescued and revived by Holsety. I've seen a youtube video of the whole opening. I can't seem to find it at the moment. --Tyrfing 16:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Celice (song)
Celice redirects to this page. Can someone add something like "For the song by a-ha, see Celice (song)." at the top?

Cleanup
I summarize my edit
 * rem'd << :This is a sub-article to Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu. >> -- i think "don't use titles that imply a hierarchy of articles" is not just about subpages

and i also suspect we never should begin articles "This is..." nor continue "Please note...". We are stating established knowledge; part of that is saying what the publishers have not done and what the fans have done in consequence, without being dramatic about apologies or qualifications. More thought needs to be given to the lead secn. --Jerzy•t 10:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Recurring characters in the Fire Emblem series
I have started a discussion on the Fire Emblem talk page. Aether7 (talk) 18:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)