Talk:List of Forgotten Realms deities/Archive 1

Untitled
Links to Mulhorandi gods incorrect.

The Lady of Pain's status is uncertain (at least for Planescape canon) but she(it?) should not be considered a power (that is, goddess)

Should this page mention that some of the FR gods are pulled from Real World mythology? FrozenPurpleCube 20:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

There is also mentioned in the AD&D 2nd edition book On Hallowed Ground(on page 182), another figure like the Lord Ao named Aoskar. He was destoryed by the Lady of Pain, and had dominion over portals.

Also, on page 30 of Faiths & Avatars Ao is listed to have a superior who is A Luminous Being.

Lurue
I dont know if i am doing this correct, but this article lists lurue as a demideity, while her own article lists her as lesser OR minor, which is hard to understand... which one is now correct?84.160.74.159 19:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Preparation for major revamp
I'm getting ready to take a pause from more serious topics and systematically improve the Forgotten Realms content, most of which is entirely based on 2e material at this time.

Can anyone confirm, in either 2e or 3e content, a source that confirms any of the following as actually being Forgotten Realms deities (rather than Greyhawk or "generic")?

Bargrivyek - Cult of the Singing Skull - Eadro - Gaknulak - Gorellik - Grankhul - Gzemnid - Jazirian - Koriel - Maanzecorian - Meriadar - Nomog-Gaeya - Persana - Psilofyr - Quorlinn - Ramenos - Remnis - Skiggaret - Stalker - Surminare - Syranita - The Bright Sword - The Dark God - The Great Wise Worm

Or any of the deities listed as Faerie deities or "The Dark Deities"? Serpent&#39;s Choice 09:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Cult of the Singing Skull, The Bright Sword and Elrem the Wise Great Worm are all in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for AD&D2ed, under "Beast Cults", page 60. -- Trixt 23:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks Trixt! Totally missed those references.  The Beast Cults in general will need to be added.  In addition to those, there are more from The Horde, and a couple to squeeze in from Malatra.  I'm torn about where to present them, however.  Technically, a beast cult isn't a deity, nor a totem of a deity (like the Uthgardt totems and the Ulutiu ones that I still can't find a cite for...).  I'm leaning towards putting the Beast Cults under nondeity powers.  Thoughts?  Serpent&#39;s Choice 04:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * IMHO it is correct put them in a sub-section under Quasi-deities powers, because (from FRCS AD&D2ed): "Also included in the ranks of the quasi-powers are the various powerful creatures, monsters, and godly beings revered by the Beast Cults." -- Trixt 03:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Kudos to Serpent&#39;s Choice
It's awe-inspiring to see a rewrite on this scale, especially since copious references were added to support the whole thing. Ergo, kudos! --Agamemnon2 14:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'm working to track down documentation of the various things I cut, to make sure they really don't belong in Realmspace.  Right now I'm trying to find a copy of Jungles of Chult since the Khurgorbaeyag article seems to imply there is content there that ties that deity to the Realms.  If I can cull through all the Realms sources to my satisfaction, I'll be adding in some explanatory text and pushing for FL status. Serpent&#39;s Choice 16:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Lolth back to into the abyss were she belongs!!
I noticed that some fool put Lolth as a greater god. which is completely wrong, she doesnt have nearly as many followers to be greater... According to D&D 3.5 she is an intermediate god and as far as i believe, she's been that from the beginning.

There are though many gods that are still not mentioned that are not FR specific. only D&D in general. But perhaps those are not worth mentioned on this article. I really don't know.

Also, as for the Dead Unther gods. as i wrote Inanna is the original name of the Babylonian Goddess Ishtar, that often is associated with the egyptian goddess Isis, although they are two completetely different gods from two completely different cultures. We Northern barbarians really mix things up once in a while ;P —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.67.194.29 (talk) 18:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Actually, the "some fool" was right, you're behind the times in Realms lore. Lolth raised herself up to Greater divinity as a result of the War of the Spider Queen storyline.  Unless you have some evidence against this, I'm going to add it back in (along with a source, once I can track it down).141.154.203.75 18:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

D, G, I, L?
What do these letters stand for? There needs to be a legend somewhere on the article page. Neon Merlin  18:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * They stand for Demigod, Greater deity, Intermediate deity and Lesser deity, respectively. And they shouldn't really be abbreviated for that exact reason, a lot of people don't know what they stand for. --Agamemnon2 20:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Significant Updates Needed, Concerning 4th Edition
As of the launch of the Forgotten Realms 4E campain setting, a lot of significant changes have occurred concerning the deities and faiths. A lot of species-specific deities have been retconned as manifestations of other deities, e.g. Yondalla was actually Chauntea all along, Talos was actually Gruumsh, etc. Other powers have been reduced to "Exarch" status, which is basically a demigod who generally serves a greater or lesser deity. Some gods are dead (Tyr, Mystra, Azuth, Helm, pretty much the whole drow pantheon other than Lolth). Asmodeus is also now a Greater Power, in addition to Archduke of the Nine Hells.ChipEverwood (talk) 16:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

A proposal
As an effort has been launched to systematically delete articles linked from this list and turned into redirects, I propose this policy be taken to its logical conclusion. The systematic deletion of every single D&D deity article linked to from this list and every single list like it. After that, delete the lists, for the exact same reason. Deities from the D&D game do not, in fact, possess any real-world notability. After this has been accomplished, start mass deletions of D&D content, there must be hundreds of undeserving pages on Wikipedia, detailing non-notable books, creatures, people and characters linked in some way to the D&D game. If a job's worth doing, it's worth doing right. --Agamemnon2 (talk) 17:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I went here today to look for information that I have found here several times before, but the page was gone. So I ask, why ruin something that is good? Of course there are other places where I can find this information, but in this place, it was well structured, easy to find, and the information was good and pretty reliable. 83.253.157.100 (talk) 13:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In principle I agree and sympathise, but rules are rules are rules. --Agamemnon2 (talk) 16:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The rules seem to indicate just what Agamemnon2 wrote in the first paragraph. Possible reactions in my opinion:
 * 1) Ignore the rules. I think this has been done in the past an no longer works, as more wikipedians have taken an interest in applying them to D&D articles.
 * 2) Trying to keep articles in accordance with the rules. This would mainly mean finding third-party sources. For most articles I have only faint hope here - except on published books, where we might be able to find reviews in gaming magazines.
 * 3) Change the rules of WP:Notability and WP:Notability (fiction) - at least with regard to role-playing games. I would like that, because I agree with 83.253.157.100, but I only have faint hope here as well.
 * 4) Move articles to the appropriate wikia (e. g. Forgotten Realms Wiki or D&D Wiki). If we do this, I think we should ask, if e. g. this list can be kept in accordance with the rules and then do what User:Craw-daddy did - but only after discussing if the article is really non-notable.


 * I personally would like to ask everyone around in how far 2) is possible, and then do 4) where it seems not to be possible, though it seems sad enough. Daranios (talk) 16:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I have long found this reference useful, but it now seems to be under attack for not conforming to Wikipedia's norms. I think new content added will struggle to conform to such, and this reference is far less useful if incomplete.  Hence, I would advocate for option 4 directly, before any more gets chopped up and people get frustrated with Wikipedia, moreover waste their efforts in a futile attempt to satisfy the rules.  Wikipedia doesn't seem to really want this kind of content, and there are other, stable Wiki's that do. Robert Rossi (talk) 15:08, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * A list of this style (although nowhere near as exhaustive) already forms the focal point for the deities section on the Forgotten Realms Wiki at http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Deities so it would be great to get some extra editing help over there. Fw190a8 (talk) 20:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge with Agathos Daimon (Forgotten Realms)
The Agathos Daimon (Forgotten Realms) article does not present sufficient information to stand on its own, nor is it notable enough to have its own article. It should be merged into this list. Neelix (talk) 11:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. A merge is a very good choice here. Web Warlock (talk) 12:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I am for it, too. A source would be nice. Daranios (talk) 19:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know where Agathos Daimon appears in Forgotten Realms products? I am by no means familiar with all (especially newer) products, but the article was created by a unregistered user with no source information, and I have never heard of him. Daranios (talk) 14:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Try checking planewalker.com 's god list, or try asking at Candlekeep's forums? I tried an internet search but came up with zip. There's a geocities page about him (see Beshaba), and whoever wrote that probably knows where to look. If it's a fan creation that's never been in an official product, we should PROD or speedy ir rather than merging. BOZ (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I seem to have found the sources for Agathos Daimon: Unfortunately I was not able to mail the editor of Tiefling's Exultation, but a user at Candlekeep-Forum said, that it is not canon (i. e. published by Wizards?). Therefore I would rather exclude Agathos Daimon completely. Daranios (talk) 12:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Tiefling's Exultation
 * Wapipedia


 * I'm generally loathe to delete anything, but in this case that is probably the right thing to do. Redirecting it would be OK if you're not sure whether to pursue that. BOZ (talk) 04:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposal
Please give this a read and tell me what you think. LA @ 06:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've moved that to Talk:List of Forgotten Realms deities/Merge proposal to get it out of the article space.  Pagra shtak  14:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The proposal has been moved to WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons/Deity article merge proposal. LA @ 15:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Deneir
Deneir had been changed into a redirect and back to an article several times (being protected for that reason for some time). I guess there was some discussion somewhere, either about Deneir specifically or minor Forgotten Realms gods in general, if they should be merged with this list. I would like to link that discussion to the respective talk page in order to ward off an edit war, but I cannot find it at the moment. Can anyone help? Thanks. Daranios (talk) 18:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There doesn't seem to have been a formal discussion regarding it (I checked the AFD logs), just edit warring like there has been on oh-so-many D&D articles. -Drilnoth (talk) 15:53, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure why that one would need to be treated any different than the others - it should be part of a larger merge discussion rather than singled out. Regardless, it's going to get one of my world famous publication histories in the near future. ;) BOZ (talk) 17:34, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Update
All of this info are sourced from old editions of the game. It needs to be updated to reflect the current edition. (Feel free, however, to retain the existing information as long as it's clear it's obsolete). In short, I agree to what's said in the Significant Updates Needed, Concerning 4th Edition section above.

Slapped an update tag on this, as a minimum warning to visitors this ain't done. CapnZapp (talk) 16:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Dead Power?
Why does the list say Tyr is a dead power? His page says he is still alive and kicking. ---71.180.79.190 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC).
 * Either this article is incorrect or the main article on Tyr hasn't been updated; feel free to fix whichever is wrong if you know the answer. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 01:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Part of the problem with always trying to keep an article "current." :) BOZ (talk) 01:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Someone added "(now a dead power)" to several deities without explanations. Wonder what this is about... -- megA (talk) 01:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably they either died in one of the novels, or were declared dead in one of the 3E/4E game products. Feel free to remove if there is no citation. 24.148.0.83 (talk) 13:19, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, Eilistraee was never killed. Per cannon layed out in the Avatar series, A God must be killed in their own plane (AO casts the Gods to the prime material plane so they can die there). Eilistraee was slew in the realms, not in her plane. Secondly, when Mystra, Bane, and Torm each died they produced massive explosions, which didn't occur when Eilistaee died. Lastly, I have contacted the author of the book (I own eilistraee.org, so she replied) and she stated that she didn't want to kill Eilistraee. I submit that Eilistraee was gravely wounded but is not protected by her father until she may rise again.--Lotus253 (talk) 01:22, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

"Bane" deserves own page (again)
If the newcomer/late deity Cyric has his own page; the quintessential dark god Bane, who is the archetype and typifies supernatural villain god in rpg setting and has for years; likely has all sorts of popular culture influences that are hard to spot or source but if could be collected and sourced would be gold for a wikipedia article. Bane, of all the D&D gods here which have their own article, is the most surprising not to have one. Someone set out on this venture of making a notable page for Bane that won't get axed. Thanks! 4.242.174.243 (talk) 14:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree completely! 204.153.84.10 (talk) 15:11, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Merge with individual deity and deity group articles
The vast majority of the deities and deity groups in Forgotten Realms are not sufficiently notable to justify their own articles. As such, the following articles should be merged here: Valkur, Umberlee, Ubtao, Tyr (Forgotten Realms), Tymora, Torm, Tiamat (Dungeons & Dragons), Tempus (Forgotten Realms), Tchazzar, Talos (Forgotten Realms), Talona, Sune, Silvanus (Forgotten Realms), Shiallia, Shaundakul, Shar (goddess), Sess'Innek, Selûne, Selan (Dungeons & Dragons), Segojan Earthcaller, Savras, Panzuriel, Oghma (Forgotten Realms), Nobanion, Nebelun, Mystra (goddess), Myrkul, Moradin, Moander, Milil, Mielikki (Forgotten Realms), Merrshaulk, Meriadar, Mask (Forgotten Realms), Marthammor Duin, Malar (Forgotten Realms), Maglubiyet, Lurue, Loviatar (Forgotten Realms), Lolth, Lliira, Leira (goddess), Lathander, Laogzed, Kostchtchie, Kossuth (Dungeons & Dragons), Kor (Dungeons & Dragons), Kiaransalee, Juiblex, Jergal, Jazirian, Iyachtu Xvim, Istishia, Ilsensine, Ilmater, Ibrandul, Helm (Forgotten Realms), Halfling deities, Gzemnid, Gruumsh, Grumbar, Great Mother (Dungeons & Dragons), Grankhul, Gond (god), Goblinoid deities, Gnome deities, Giant deities, Garl Glittergold, Gargauth, Fenmarel Mestarine, Eshowdow, Elf deities, Eldath, Eilistraee, Dwarf deities, Dumathoin, Drow deities, Dragon deities, Deneir, Demogorgon (Dungeons & Dragons), Cyric, Corellon Larethian, Circle of Greater Powers, Chauntea, Blibdoolpoolp, Bhaal, Beshaba, Baravar Cloakshadow, Baphomet (Dungeons & Dragons), Bane (god), Bahamut (Dungeons & Dragons), Azuth, Auril, Annam (Dungeons & Dragons), Angharradh, Amaunator, and Akadi. Neelix (talk) 22:37, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * For a few of those you are likely correct. For others, you care clearly mistaken.  I don't know enough about the Realms, but many of those are not purely Realms gods so the merge target is inappropriate.  Out of curiosity, did you actually read all/many or at least some of those articles before proposing this? Hobit (talk) 23:04, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I can spot quite a few that are not Forgotten Realms-only and several may have independent notability as book characters or by other means. Hekerui (talk) 23:09, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I concur with Hobit and Hekerui; not everything in the "Forgotten Realms deities" category is really unique to or even a part of the setting. Many were created outside of, and remain separate from, the Forgotten Realms. 24.148.0.83 (talk) 15:15, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for picking up on my error. I have removed the merge templates from all the articles about deities that are not specific to Forgotten Realms and have also removed them from the merge templates on this article. Here are the remaining articles: Valkur, Umberlee, Ubtao, Tyr (Forgotten Realms), Tymora, Torm, Tempus (Forgotten Realms), Tchazzar, Talos (Forgotten Realms), Talona, Sune, Silvanus (Forgotten Realms), Shiallia, Shaundakul, Shar (goddess), Selûne, Selan (Dungeons & Dragons), Savras, Oghma (Forgotten Realms), Nobanion, Mystra (goddess), Myrkul, Moander, Milil, Mielikki (Forgotten Realms), Mask (Forgotten Realms), Marthammor Duin, Malar (Forgotten Realms), Lurue, Loviatar (Forgotten Realms), Lliira, Leira (goddess), Lathander, Kor (Dungeons & Dragons), Jergal, Iyachtu Xvim, Ilmater, Ibrandul, Helm (Forgotten Realms), Gond (god), Gargauth, Eshowdow, Eldath, Eilistraee, Deneir, Cyric, Circle of Greater Powers, Chauntea, Bhaal, Beshaba, Bane (god), Azuth, Auril, Angharradh, and Amaunator. Are there any objections to merging these articles here? Neelix (talk) 20:43, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Now the key question is why. Again, I'm largely going to have to bag on any meaningful discussion as I'm not a Realms guy, but I am seeing a lot of sources, mostly primary, in the handful of articles I've looked at.  I think it might be worthwhile A) posting something at the D&D wikiproject and B) proposing one or two for merger at a time and give people a few days (maybe a week) to work on them.  We're in no real rush (these articles have been here forever) so may as well work to improve them first.  Also, this list article will likely need to break into at least 2 articles, and maybe 3 or 4 if a real merge (rather than a redirect) is going to happen. That probably could use some discussion too.  I'll back off for the reasons given above, but I would prefer to see this slower path in the attempt to improve things before punting on them. Hobit (talk) 23:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The revised list does now seem to contain only Realms-specific deities. I would also agree with Hobit on wondering why so many should need to be redirected, and why there is any need to hurry on cramming them all in there. 69.245.138.135 (talk) 00:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have already tried the slow route of going through them one by one and other editors kept saying that if I was nominating one, I should be nominating them all. If they are all merged here, specific ones can always be split off again if sufficient coverage in reliable secondary sources is discovered, although I don't expect that it exists for any of the articles I have nominated. Neelix (talk) 21:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Arbitrarily merge everything regardless, then resplit afterwards, in order to avoid discussion? That seems rather problematic, at least on the face of it.
 * Wouldn't it make more sense to ask the WikiProject to help assess the pages? - jc37 03:09, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This is in no way an arbitrary merge; these articles have been in existence for a long time and every one of them has been checked for sufficient coverage in reliable secondary sources and has been found wanting. I am also in no way avoiding discussion; I was the one who started this discussion, and it is taking place on a public talk page where everyone can participate. Members of the WikiProject are free to contribute; I have left a message on the WikiProject's talk page to notify them of the discussion. Neelix (talk) 13:28, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I took a few of these articles as a sample, and the issue of the lack of third party sources is a major one. We should be making an effort to merge the less notable content into lists like this, as it simply doesn't have a place on Wikipedia. Naturally, the deities used in multiple settings, while probably deserving of an entry (or at least mention) on this list, should probably not be merged here. J Milburn (talk) 14:04, 5 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I've not looked at all the articles in question, but enough to say I'm okay with the revised merge list. Hobit (talk) 14:10, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that, at minimum, Bane, Bhaal, and Cyric have played pretty important roles in other media (novels, computer games, etc) that they should be considered to be possibly removed from the merge list. I'm less sure about the others. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 15:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have completed the merge for all the individual deity articles that have not been contested. I have also taken a second look for reliable secondary sources for Bane, Bhaal, and Cyric, but I haven't come up with enough for either of them to demonstrate their individual notability. Unless someone else can find sufficient secondary sourcing for these three deities, their articles should be merged here as well. Neelix (talk) 21:57, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure a case could be made for an exception for those three - they are the main villains for notable other media, for which independent sources undoubtedly exist. The places you are looking for sources may be limited in scope, and may not include offline sources. 64.134.164.208 (talk) 18:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Google Books, Google News, and Google Scholar searches are fairly comprehensive in their scope and are normally the searches used to determine if a subject meets Wikipedia's notability criteria. I do not see that there are grounds for stating that sources undoubtedly exist for these three characters. These articles have been around for six years and no one seems to have been able to turn up sufficient reliable secondary sources in all that time. Neelix (talk) 15:29, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't seem to have support on redirecting the last three. I see some people saying that they are fine with merging some, but not all. If you can get some support on redirecting the last three, then that may be OK. 64.134.164.64 (talk) 19:18, 24 October 2010 (UTC)