Talk:List of Formula One fatalities/Archive 2

Non-driver deaths
It has been brought up a few times before, but I'm not sure this has really been discussed. I suggest adding a section on people other than drivers dying, such as track marshals (Jansen van Vuuren, Paolo Ghislimberti) and pit crew. Any thoughts? A ecis Brievenbus 18:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think non-driver deaths are worth a section in this article. No need for major details of each incident, but a mention of the worst would be a relevant addition. Bretonbanquet 19:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Partial list:

AlexJ (talk) 21:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Wasn't there non-driver deaths at Wolfgang von Trip's fatal accident, Alex? --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 10:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the Argentine Grand Prix article, there were also nine non-driver fatalities at the 1953 Argentine Grand Prix.-- Diniz  (talk)  12:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also two killed by Gilles Villeneuve's accident at the 1977 Japanese Grand Prix and a marshal killed by a flying wheel at the 1962 Monaco Grand Prix (I'm pretty sure I have a book at home which has his name).-- Diniz  (talk)  12:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's gets a little depressing sometimes to read so many dead, doesn't it? Anyway, take your time finding the book Diniz, the article defines the list as "drivers who have died while driving a Formula One car" only, so technically the list is correct atm although I would still like to see this extra list as well. :-) --Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 21:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Should we include this now? I realise that the introductory passages states "[the list] does not include track marshals and other race attendees..." but this could be updated to include them. The article title is "List of Formula One fatal accidents", which isn't specific to drivers. Any arguments before i make the change? Julianhall (talk) 19:35, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I have scoured the Grand Prix circuits listed at http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/query.php?db=ct&q=circuit for non-driver fatalities that occurred at the WDC or Non-Championship events that are shown on season summary pages such as 1950 Formula One season. That way I wasn't able to spot deaths as a result of testing accidents (if such occurred). Moreover, the Motorsport Memorial database may be incomplete. Anyway, the following table compiles 56 non-drivers who have been fatally injured in 21 events.

Race Marshal
At some point in the last few years (not sure of the season) a marshal was killed by flying debris at a point when no driver was injured. Shouldn't this be included? Paul (paulthompson2k@hotmail.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.124.156 (talk) 03:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: Sorry have just clicked about the whole 'driving a F1 car' thing...

However for the sake of comparison it might be useful to show that due to the increase in driver protection the people most at risk are not actually in the cars? Paul — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.124.156 (talk) 03:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Questions/Suggestions
The second paragraph of the introduction defines what the article is about. I think it should swap places with the first.--Fluidfellow (talk) 01:15, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Aforementioned first paragraph has been removed . This is its last version:


 * In Formula One, safety standards have improved since the first World Championship Grand Prix at Silverstone in, where there was no medical back-up or safety measures in case of an accident. In the 1960s, helmets and overalls became mandatory and the FIA assumed responsibility for safety at the circuits. Further steps were taken to improve the safety of the Formula One car in the 1970s: the cockpit opening was enlarged allowing the driver quicker escape in the event of an accident and outside mirrors became mandatory. In the 1980s the carbon fibre monocoque replaced aluminium, increasing protection upon impact. Following the deaths of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna at Imola in , a number of measures were introduced in an attempt to slow the cars down, including a wooden undertray. In grooved tyres replaced racing slick tyres to reduce cornering speed. Safety measures continued to be introduced into the 21st century, with a number of circuits changing their configuration to improve driver safety.


 * References
 * --Fluidfellow (talk) 03:57, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * --Fluidfellow (talk) 03:57, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

While Red Bull Ring is displayed as "Österreichring," its name at the time of Mark Donohue's fatal accident, Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez is not displayed as "Magdalena Mixhuca Circuit," its name at the time of Ricardo Rodríguez's fatal accident. Is a track's current/last name or its name at the time of the accident to be displayed? (I haven't checked the table for other tracks having changed their names.) And which version is the "By circuit" table to show?

The text suggests that there have also been test drives that were part of the Formula One World Championship. Shouldn't it read "Indicates a race that was not part of the Formula One World Championship or a test drive."? Or could the test sessions during which Peter Revson and Patrick Depailler lost their lives be considered part of the Formula One World Championship due to them being held just before Grand Prix events on the same tracks? If so, the text in question is correct but the background color of the "Event" column would have to be adjusted in the entries belonging to the above-named drivers. In any case, I have added wikilinks to the respective event pages, which make mention of the drivers' deaths (see "Event" column).

According to the defintion shown above, Template:Dagger should also be used in case of test drives, but currently isn't. Why not getting rid of it altogether? A different background color seems to be sufficient.

Instead of a footnote, a different background color could be used to highlight the Indianapolis 500 as well:

The fact that Charles de Tornaco and Gerhard Mitter were driving Formula 2 cars could be pointed out, too. While de Tornaco may have competed in an event featuring F-2 cars only, Mitter participated in a joint F-1/F-2 event.

Jack Smith was killed in what "could be regarded as a Formula 1 car." Should he be added?--Fluidfellow (talk) 01:15, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Having seen this new section, I'm not convinced of its merits. I just don't see the value of a list of essentially unlucky people, none of whom were notable (including Gislimberti who should not have an article), killed while doing nothing notable. Sounds harsh I know, but what value does it add? Is it complete? I doubt it, but how can that be verified? It can't. The flags need to go as they fail MOSFLAG, by the way. We've also got mixed US/UK spellings. The inclusion criteria for drivers is essentially arbitrary. What purpose does the table showing deaths per circuit actually serve? It certainly doesn't prove that one circuit is more dangerous than another, which is what it implies. I really can't see how this can continue to be a featured list, but then I'll never understand how it got to be a featured list in the first place. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:01, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Pre WDC
Forgive me, I am relatively new to this, but I feel it actually inarguable that this list CANNOT be comeplete without 1946-1949 F1 Deaths.

If you are defining this as a list of all Drivers killed in an WDC race, WDC Weekend, or in an F1 car, which seems to be what you are trying to do, give it a broad scope to be inclusive for anyone either killed in an accident in anyway F1 associated, or in the cars themselves irrespective of if it was in relation to anything connected to F1... which is good, do not get me wrong, then you absolutely MUST begin the list from when the FIA sanctioned F1 in 1946. It does not matter there was no WDC, nor that there were non F1 Grand Prixs in the seasons, or some races that where not GPs at all, if any driver between 1946-1949 died in an F1 car, or in GP being run to F1 rules, even if in a car that did not otherwise meet F1 rules, but was allowed to race anyway...which happened, as a recognised official entry, then I feel that they MUST be included.

This has already been mentioned, but seems this article has not yet addressed this.

Pre WDC F1 deaths are probably more 'valid' for the list than many NON WDC deaths listed, like Indianapolis, and certainly more so than listing non racer fatalities, which is definitely worthy, but should be an article of it's own.

I think the issue is many here do not know that Formula One dates to 1946, most assuming the WDC and F1 are one and the same, and began at the same time. I really think this list needs be updated to include all early F1 deaths, though that is only... 4 or 5 people off the top of my head, which should make it an easy edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apis4 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
 * You're welcome to add the pre-WDC driver deaths to the article, as long as they're reliably sourced, or if you don't feel confident to do that, you can add the details here (on the talk page) and someone else can add them into the article. DH85868993 (talk) 02:49, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

A better inclusion criteria
I would like to raise this issue too. Ricardo Rodriguez' death behind the wheel of a contemporary F1 car for a serious GP team at a first-tier motorrace should not be considered equivalent to an amateur's unfortunate demise in a historic car. I think the following criteria should be used to determine inclusion:

Any of the following fatal accidents should be included:
 * Car is a contemporary F1 car and accident is at a prestigious event (featuring serious competitive entries from contemporary WDC teams and drivers)
 * Car is a contemporary or near-contemporary F1 car and driver has contemporary experience in World Championship races
 * Car is a contemporary or near-contemporary F1 car and was, at the time of the accident, prepared for competition by a contemporary World Championship team or constructor

Drivers currently in the article who would be excluded on this criteria:
 * Martin Brain - not a Grand Prix quality driver and in a (recently) obsolete car, not in a high-level race
 * John Dawson-Damer - ameteur, historic racing
 * Fritz Glatz - not a Grand Prix quality driver, in an obsolete car, not in a high-level race
 * Denis Welch - ameteur, historic racing
 * David Ferrer - ameteur, historic racing
 * The seven Indy 500 drivers - not F1 machines; thus do not fit the title of the article

Drivers that are currently highlighted orange who would be included on this critera, and why I think their inclusion is intuitively correct:
 * Cameron Earl - was testing a contemporary F1 car for a GP constructor
 * Charles de Tornaco - was racing at a serious event with factory F1 entries in a car and for a team with whom he had raced at WC events
 * Mario Alborghetti - was racing in a contemporary F1 car at a very serious race with factory F1 entries
 * Eugenio Castellotti - factory GP driver testing a factory car
 * Harry Schell - serious driver, serious car, serious race, serious team
 * Shane Summers - very serious race (seriously, check out the entry list) and a contemporary car
 * Giulio Cabianca - contemporary car, team, and driver
 * Ricardo Rodriguez - serious car, team, driver, race
 * Gary Hocking - serious car, driver, race
 * Bob Anderson - serious car, driver
 * Jo Siffert - serious car, driver, race, team
 * Peter Revson - serious car, driver, team
 * Brian McGuire - contemporary car, reasonably serious race
 * Patrick Depailler - serious driver, team
 * Elio de Angelis - serious driver, team

Thoughts?

P.S. I have mocked up this idea here (albeit without updated statistics and lead section text)

NotJohnHindhaugh (talk) 16:40, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Looks unworkable to me due to too many subjective criteria. "Contemporary or near-contemporary", "prestigious", "serious", "not a Grand Prix quality driver", "amateur", "obsolete car", "high level race"... all this stuff is arbitrary and open to lengthy, probably interminable debate. I mean, what is a "reasonably serious race"? Criteria need to be absolutely rock solid. I would add that this list does not attempt to equate any of these accidents with any others, so there is no reason to consider Rodriguez' accident as equivalent to an accident in an F1 car in historic racing. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:39, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

List of Formula One fatalities includes drivers which aren't Formula One drivers, and which didn't die in official Formula One races (or F1 tests)
Subject pretty much says it. David Ferrer, for example, never competed in F1. The Historic F1 series is also NOT the Formula One, but a series where mostly amateur drivers drive historic Formula race cars. For factual reasons, I would remove the drivers which are no Formula One fatalities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.69.42.116 (talk) 19:25, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Then you need to redefine what qualifies as a Formula One fatality - it is currently defined as drivers who have died during a FIA World Championship event (including practice, qualifying and the race), and those who have died while driving modern or vintage Formula One cars outside the World Championship. Track marshals and other race attendees who have died as a result of these accidents are not included in the list. - what do you propose we change it to? (You may want to look at previous attempts to redefine, these efforts can be found above and in the archives) SSSB (talk) 20:15, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Doubts
I think this article should be rewritten. If you're considering all the crashes in which the driver who died was driving an F1 car, you're not going anywhere: during 1950s a lot of non-F1 cars (including sportscars and, in some cases, F3/F Junior cars) could take part in F1 races. What if Harry Schell, during the 1950 Monaco Grand Prix, had a fatal crash? He was driving an F3 car, with a JAP 1.1 V2 engine. Would it have been included here? I think it would be better to include all the fatalities which happened during an official Formula 1 weekend, or a non-championship race, or, again, during a test in preparation for an F1 Grand Prix. I've seen there's Martin Brain here, but he died during a club meeting. If you think he should be included, then Jack Smith is missing from this list, and there would be also a lot of fatalities that should be included (Spencer Flack, Jean Achard, ...). I'll repeat: I think only the event should be considered. 93.35.51.52 (talk) 01:23, 26 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm very much minded to agree with the above and would be quite interested in splitting the article up into some properly comprehensive lists of, say, race deaths, testing deaths, spectator/marshal deaths and "historic driver" deaths. This works really well in things like List of NASCAR fatalities or List of spaceflight-related accidents and incidents, and stops a single list being bulked out by those without anything to do with F1 except owning a 40-year old Lotus Chassis (which, though tragic, diverts a casual reader from the main point of the article - that driver safety has massively improved over time).
 * Gohumanity (talk) 23:42, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

And Jim Clark does not appear on the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.83.234.231 (talk) 00:38, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Clark is not listed because he died while driving a Formula 2 car in a Formula 2 race. DH85868993 (talk) 10:18, 7 April 2020 (UTC)