Talk:List of French words and phrases used by English speakers/Archive 1

Garde manger?
je taime? 24.3.61.155 (talk) 16:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Barbecue
In the same way as cul de sac, I think it's OK if dealing with ass in this article again. ;) I don't have any reference but i often heard the english "Barbecue" is derivated from the old (medieval) french "Barbe-au-cul". That should be used at this era as "De la barbe au cul" which means "From beard to ass". It was when entire pigs (or even bulls if hungry :) ) were heat on a tournebroche (don't know the english for that) over fire. The tourneborche were inserted along the animal from its mouth and get out at the other side.

Is it useful to note it into this page ? don't know but i just wanted to mention that.

Also, I noticed some other things on already present words. It's just complementary information on the french uses :
 * Beau geste : It's currently used in a commercial context but without the "beau". i.e. "Je vous prends tout le lot, pouvez-vous faire un geste commercial ?"
 * Apéritif : THIS is the most important socializing event with close peoples in France, particularly in the south :) In this way, to go drinking alone is not quite popular and never assimiled to an "apéro". The sentence "one can have an apéritif at a bar (with or without friends)" is not true actually.
 * adieu : In the ancien "Oc" language zone (most of the south of France). The term "Adieu" is assimiled to its synonym "Adiou" (phonetic : A-dee-who) and is not a so-far goodbye. It's even use for "hello" by some elderlies.
 * chapeau : The french expression is contracted and its long form is "chapeau bas" for "Je vous tiens mon chapeau bas" in a sign of huge respect for a great action.
 * doyen : nothing to modify, just to tell about our famous french ex-doyenne, Jeanne Calment who aged at 122 years.
 * écorché : This word is very few used but there's a common expression which is more used than the word alone : "écorché vif". It describe an humor and feeling of someone who passed great difficulties with lots of hurts. It's all figuratively and the first meaning (physicaly) is too extreme, we prefer "taillé", "rapé", "ouvert" instead.
 * en principe, oui : In french, it means "en principe, oui" :) this means "in a normal way, yes" or "statistically, yes" or "in mainly cases, yes". But if you ask something to a woman and she answers "en principe, oui", it's never a frank yes.
 * feuilleton : this is just used for SOAP tv shows named "feuilletons télévisés" or "feuilleton TV".
 * gauche : the french meaning also include a notion of clumsyness. You could be "gauche" with your body without be tactless.
 * j'accuse : This oratory is still well-known and often reused by youngsters to remain the "left" ideology ("la gauche") to the population and politics.
 * lanterne rouge : it is used for other sports like rugby, football (heu.. soccer for americans).
 * chocolatine : This little thing is subject to a great and very funny "intern war" between south and north of France without any reason neither real clashes. I'm from south near Toulouse, i say a chocolatine, friends of mine from Nantes says pain au chocolat.
 * risqué : In a particular context, it's possible to tell someone he's "dévergondé" (or she's "dévergondée"). This can be used for some close friends with a "petit" or "petite" before. It's always taken with humour if he or she know you well.

hope it helps, bye. 86.213.99.217 (talk) 20:24, 4 July 2011 (UTC)MomotteDePoil

Cul de Sac
"Cul de sac" literally means the closed end of a bag. The metaphor with a dead end is very clear. The expression is commonly used in spoken language, but a dead street road will be named "impasse" on a street/road sign. Although Cul is considered a rather vulgar/argotic word in contemporary French, it's the proper word for your back. People quite never know how to tell about it as it can't be the subject of a very normal discussion. I believe the same happens in English. But derivatives are in wide use like. "Reculer" is the very normal verb for going backwards, and "Enculer" is as disgratious a word as the act it describes (gays should disagree). More rare "Cul de basse fosse" tells of a dirty, wet, semi-improvised medieval custody.

"Cul de sac" is used in the UK to mean "dead end road". It is "good", i.e. meaningful, French as of some centuries ago, but is now very vulgar and this metaphorical meaning wouldn't be understood by Frenchmen who would say "impasse" instead. Yet they have no problem calling a Dandelion - which is supposed to be a corruption of "dent de lion" from a fancied resemblance - "pisse en lit" from its (supposed?) medical properties...fuck and stuff


 * not true. Cul de sac is not really vulgar (asshole is very vulgar, and I guess somebody could be sued still use it quite a lot !
 * prononciation of cul de sac: english speaking people pronounce the l at the end of cul, we don't. And there's the u pronounciation that is also different. But, a cul is a cul anyway...
 * as for dandelion, which we call pissenlit, it is great in salad, with vinegar, oil, salt, piece of larded bacon and walnuts. And yes, it has medical properties. You don't need any proof from scientific guys. Just pick some in your garden, make yourself a salad, and check out what happen :-)


 * growing up in the west of Ireland, we used to call Dandelions "pissybeds", although I never heard it being used anywhere else in the English speaking world or media...


 * 'pisse on lit' is also used in southern Louisiana to refer to a kind of marsh plant quite unlike a dandelion; but the understanding of the name (i.e. if you eat it you will wet the bed) is the same.

MAYDAY
I've removed the following from the article, for various reasons. Could non-french speakers please check the spelling of phrases before they add them. Tarquin


 * M'aider! -- Someone, help me! ("May day!") -- this is highly doubtful etymology. Someone needs to check this, but AFAIK the english word "Mayday" was chosen as a distress codeword because it's easily pronouceable in most languages.
 * It is m'aidez (help me), I believe. It is definitely French and there are several other air/sea rescue terms that are similarly French and given phonetic English translation/pronunciation thingies, but I don't have my reference here. I'll look it up.
 * It is m'aidez; I've seen it written that way in French. -phma


 * yes, so have I. I am fairly sure it's false etymology. -- Tarquin


 * I'm pretty certain this etymology of "Mayday" is a made-up myth. "Help me" in French would be aidez-moi, not *"m'aidez". -- Timwi 21:13 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * No. "M'aidez" is correct. It has the same principle of "Je t'aime" and "Va, je ne te hais point" (Go, I don't hate you).


 * It's true. French was at one time the "official" language of international communication. (Consider lingua franca). Inmarsat radio-telephone calls to ships were billed in gold francs. Consider also the radio terms securite and pan-pan, seelonce,seelonce feenee. All are of French origin. Reference: US Coastguard Handbook. User:Anjouli|Anjouli]] 18:15, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * "mayday" comes from the French.

Check www.etymonline.com or www.m-w.com. Both seemingly reliable websites... :) Regardless, the question in my opinion is whether or not it should be included due to the fact that the spelling is no longer French. Should it therefore be left out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mloafness (talk • contribs) 17:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * canard orange -- orange duck -- is this meant to be "duck a l'orange?"; shades of Fawlty Towers ;-)
 * clairvoyant -- clear seeing (psychic) -- I'd say this is now integrated into English. A fair test is that it would seem totally wrong used in italics
 * an excellent and reliable test!


 * un auteur -- an author -- this is not used to mean the same thing as "author". however none of my dictionaries have it. probably belongs in the article but needs a better explanation. the french word auteur does have a much larger meaning that author, also the founder of a race, the perpetrator of a crime...
 * In English, it almost always means "film director who controls everything about the film, or other controller of an artistic situation". This may be one of those "French expressions not used in French".


 * Je temps -- ? (Pronounced Ja temp) -- is this meant to be "j'attends" ?


 * "mayday" comes from the French.
 * Check www.etymonline.com or www.m-w.com. Both seemingly reliable websites... :)
 * Regardless, the question in my opinion is whether or not it should be included due to the fact that the spelling is no longer French. Should it therefore be left out? Mloafness (talk) 17:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Bonbons & Café
WHEN do English speakers use these terms? "des bonbons"? "le cafe"? Not in my experience. We might say bon bons, but that's become an English term. We might say cafe, but more likely cafe latte when speaking of coffee and cafe when speaking of a place to eat, but not with the accent mark. -- Zoe
 * The café accent is surprisingly common, and of course it is always pronounced with the accent, but I agree, bonbons are bonbons. French words in English would be a much longer article.Ortolan88
 * Not French, I'm afraid, just home-grown American. :-)


 * café (with the accent) is an English word. It is in the Concise Oxford Dictionary, with the accent. Anjouli 18:35, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

"The café accent is surprisingly common" -  Is it surprising? The only surprise to me is that it is not universal. It is essentially a French word imported into the English language, so the accent is an intrinsic part of the word,  and it simply sounds incorrect and - dare I suggest - ignorant to hear it pronounced without the accent. But I suspect that this is partly an age-related practice;  I am in my late sixties,  and grew up with the word complete with accent as a boy,  but I get the impression that those below the age of forty are much more likely to drop the accent than are my generation. Indeed I have even had mildly heated arguments with my godson (now aged 40) on this very point; he is a highly educated professional man but maintains that without the accent is correct and that to "insert" the accent is either affectation or archaic.

On a related point, I remember when living in Gloucester twenty years ago being very irritated at what I took (wrongly) to be a mis-spelling on the signboard of a local establishment;  CAFFE ROMA. However it turned out that the estalishment concerned is Italian, and I am assured that the spelling is in fact correct in that language! (Oliver L. Shaw) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.25.103.73 (talk) 23:57, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I have seen it written as a title: "cafè"!

Nom de guerre
What is an assumed name used by a photographer?

A nom Daguerre. -[[User:PierreAbbat|PierreAbbat]


 * ha ha ha! :D

MAYDAY (again)
Shouldn't the "m'aidez" expression move to the "used in english but not in french" section ? Does anyone really say or write "m'aidez" in modern French ? I would not (and French is my mother tongue) -- I would say "aidez-moi"... or if I really mean "mayday" in a french text I would spell it "mayday" not "m'aidez". FvdP


 * The OED explains it as either a phonetic representation of French m'aider, the imperative infinitive of 'help me!', or a shortening of venez m'aider. So I changed the spelling in the article to "m'aider".  Like some others (above) I thought it was a false etymology, but I was wrong.  -- user:Heron


 * There's a whole series of words used for communications of distress at sea and in the air that were intentionally based on French that most speakers could reproduce. My own source, unfortunately, is out doing its duty on a boat somewhere, but I will try to put the information together for this article.  Ortolan88


 * There you go! I took out a few words that were just of French origin, not really French any more, and also italicized all the French.  Zut alors! Ortolan88 17:57 Aug 26, 2002 (PDT)

---

Nom de plume, Nom de guerre, l'esprit de l'escalier
About nom de plume -- literal translation of pen name, for which the French say nom de guerre

nom de plume : we do use the sentence, exactly for the signification you give : pen name. Usually for a professional writer who doesnot write under his real name, e.g. San Antonio We also use nom de guerre : it does have a more general signification (not only in litterature), it is another name with attach to us in a given situation where we don't wish to use our proper name for secret, or for practicity or for fun. Whatever. Here, I could say user:anthere is my nom de guerre, but probably not my nom de plume (as I am no professional writer :-)). But, we use both.

Besides, I have never heard l'esprit de l'escalier. Never.
 * I have often heard "l'esprit de l'escalier," the trait is common in my (Belgian) family: while visiting a family member, one doesn't know what to talk about, then while going out the door or down the stair case: "Ah! I almost forgot! I must tell you..." A one-hour conversation follows on the doorstep. Of aunts which exhibit that trait in a particularly pronounced matter, we say "celle-là, elle a vraiment l'esprit de l'escalier". -- Tonymec 04:48, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I guess the two expressions are used or not depending on the country (canada and france maybe ?). If so, it seems hardly reasonable to introduce the notion of french phrases being used in english but not in french. french used in canada or african countries or france or belgium can be pretty different.

It's de l'esprit d'escalier. "Staircase wit", not "spirit of the staircase"... Fowler notes that le mot juste is not used in French the way it is used in English, and I agree. Also, "deja vu" and "coup d'etat" are now commonly used in English: there's a bit of a grey area. I'm still not convinced of the usefulness of this page. Wikipedia is not a dictionary, etc. -- Tarquin


 * Three points:
 * The article nearly 1100 hits. Besides, it is an article about French phrases in English, not a dictionary entry, and the stuff I just added on sea-air rescue is the most concise summary anywhere on the Web.  All in all a great Google draw.
 * As for "staircase wit", the OED attributes the French phrase to Diderot (our distinguished French predecessor in the encyclopedia biz) in his Paradoxe sur le comédien and gives the form as esprit de l'escalier or esprit d'escalier, with the definition "a retort or remark that occurs to a person after the opportunity to make it has passed".
 * It has been theorized that nom de plume originated in English and was passed back into French.


 * Ortolan88 09:27 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)


 * Orto, the air-sea stuff is great. IMO it drags this article kicking & screaming into the realm of being useful, rather than just a random collation of badly remembered schoolday French. L'esprit d'escalier: we agree on the definition: the "staircase" part is a metaphor. I didn't know about the alternative version. -- Tarquin 12:46 Aug 27, 2002 (PDT)

Tarquin, about the usefullness of this article : you might be right if you see only the dictionary side of it. But, that may go further. The user might be interested in knowing when the foreign word was introduced in the language, and if there?s a specific (technical need, historical background?) reason for that. There maybe much to be said on these sea-air rescue words. I, as a casual reader, would be interested. The user could also be interested in discovering how much these words, these expressions here, have different meanings from the original one, even though most might still consider them french. But they are already slowly drifting. That's the drift that is interesting. That's on the drift that work should be done. Because, unless we understand there is a drift, we will misunderstand each other. Meaning distorsion may be accompanied with loss of information, or pre-eminence of one direction of significance over another, and may leave foreign readers dubious, as words written similar or identical may not have the same meaning.
 * I agree. I find this article useful for the same reasons. "The user could also be interested in discovering how much these words, these expressions here, have different meanings from the original one, even though most might still consider them french [sic]." This is mostly why I'm interested. My personal reason for needing this page is that I am writing a story that takes place in France; and I want many of my chapters to be named after French loanwords that many English speakers recognize. I have a few reasons for wanting to do this; one of them is that, IF they mean the exact same thing in both languages, it will eliminate the need to translate the chapter name for English and French audiences; but another one is that, if the meanings are different, I want to demonstrate this by showing the actual French meaning through story, which could provide some food-for-thought for my English readers (part of my goal is to make them consider the world through the eyes of other cultures). For example, take the word "croissant". I think most English speakers who hear this word would think only of the bun. (Even here in Canada, where we learn French in school, I think most people my age — or even older — don't realize that the word "croissant" comes from the French word for "crescent". They might know, in the context of the French language, that "croissant" indeed means "crescent"; but when you use that word in English, you only think of the bun.) I know that they're called "croissant" in French, too, but since they don't have to translate in order to see that it also means "crescent", I think they'd be more likely to think of this literal meaning of "crescent" (as opposed to the food), than we would. So, if I called one of my chapters "Croissant", my English readers would think of the food, yes? But my French readers would likely think simply of the word "crescent". So they would have different expectations of the chapter: My English readers will be looking for croissants, and any potential symbolism or significance thereof (but of course I would not try to put symbolism into a croissant...I would do that only with madeleines ^^ ), while my French readers would probably be more likely to look for symbolism in a more general crescent-shaped object (perhaps including, but — this is crucial — NOT LIMITED TO, a croissant). Since I'd usually be going with the literal French side, I might choose to put my symbolism, not in a croissant, and not even in a crescent moon, but in a sickle. French readers would understand this ("Ahh! Because the blade is crescent-shaped! I get it!"); but English readers would scratch their heads and go "Huh? What do sickles have to do with croissants? I thought there'd be something about croissants in this chapter... Why the heck did she name the chapter 'Croissant'??" It's like what you said: "Because, unless we understand there is a drift, we will misunderstand each other. Meaning distorsion [sic] may be accompanied with loss of information, or pre-eminence of one direction of significance over another, and may leave foreign readers dubious, as words written similar or identical may not have the same meaning." I like how you worded that. It's very true. In any case, I find this page invaluable, it helped me find a lot of phrases that I otherwise would have forgotten (I need lots of names, I can't afford to miss one!), like "nom de plume" and "esprit de l'escalier". NoriMori (talk) 06:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

"Light of hand": No equivalent?
Under "Only found an English", there's an entry that says:

léger de main "light of hand" : sleight of hand, usually in the context of deception or the art of stage magic tricks. Means nothing in French and has no equivalent.

But the Wikipedia article for sleight of hand says that it is also called "prestidigitation", which is also what it is called in French. Does this not qualify as an equivalent? NoriMori (talk) 06:57, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Le mot juste
Concerning le mot juste: means the same literal thing in French, but isn't used in the particular context English-speakers use it. What is that particular context?

Nom de plume (again)
I changed nom de plume from category, because it is used in french with exactely the same meaning, although pseudonyme (pseudonym) is more common. -- Looxix 23:47 May 7, 2003 (UTC)

Pronunciation
the final letter is silent (unless it's "r" or "&agrave" or "&eacute")

This just mentioned "r" originally; adding "&agrave" and "&eacute" was my attempt to cover some obvious exceptions, but this still seems a strange description of pronunciation. Improvements, anyone? Andy G 22:48 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The mention of the final stress sounds weird to me. There is very little stress in french language; if there is, it often depends on the region. ant

Un ange passe
Never heard of it. Am I just ignorant? Heard all the others. When is something "used by English speakers" and when is it just an arbitrary French phrase? Andy G 22:56 26 Jun 2003 (UTC) (English)


 * I think that is a fair question. It's not in any of my dictionaries or thesauruses. I have heard it on both the small and the large screen; used by native English speakers. It is definitely very affected and snooty. Usually uttered to take some or all in company down not just one but several pegs. Often it's meaning is also made explicit by someone explaining it outloud unless the whole point is to demonstrate that everybody in audience is especially cultured and knows it. I wouldn't mind if we just drop it. The phrase is used, but definitely not in any everyday manner. BTW, don't try googling for it; gets gazillions of hits, but most are either French Language or some Art Exhibition by that name. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick


 * 'tis funny, because in french language, it is not snooty at all to use that sentence, and certainly is not used by particularly cultured audience (actually, maybe even quite the opposite). This is always curious to me to see that sentences used with similar meanings hold so much different cultural weight. If you hear it from a french person, don't think they are downsiding you in the least. That is just a nice and rather community sealing piece of word. We use it typically when there is a silence during a gathering. It is only meant to lighten the atmosphere and unite people in a shared gentle and funny comment. user:anthere


 * Scratch that. Definitely the phrase has no place on the list. In the bin it goes. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 06:09 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Confusion
I find this page confusing. Is it supposed to list French phrases that are used regularly by English speakers, but are not yet part of the English language? This is always going to be a very narrow band, falling between those well-known enough to be regular english and those used by Anglophones with some French knowledge. I find the following entries to be problematic:

What exactly should be in here? DJ Clayworth 16:57, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
 * a la mode, coup de grace, coup d'etat, (and coup de main), je ne sais quois, touche, hors d'ouvres, croissant, saute, deja vu are all part of English (most of them are in my dictionary). On the other hand I've never heard anyone say 'oui' or 'non' unless in a French context (sometimes 'mais oui' or 'mais non').


 * Perhaps this list, which by the way is lots of fun to read through, should be rooted in a deep understanding of the long-running relationship between the French and English languages, driven by cultural, political, economic, military, academic, religious, and other forces among the French, English and Americans. Maybe one test of whether something should be included or excluded is to pretend that a kid is asking you, "Huh, what does THAT mean?" If you're likely to say, "It's French for...," then I'd say put it in. If you truly believe that when asked, "What does 'je ne sais quois' mean?" you would answer, "That's what we English speakers say when we refer to something interesting but elusive," without referring at all to the French, then by all means -- give it the axe!! 12.42.161.3 (talk) 19:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I went through the article and removed phrases that I found in my English dictionary. Those getting the cut included: coup de grace, coup d'etat, je ne sais quois, touche, hors d'ouvres, croissant, saute, deja vu.

DJ Clayworth 14:47, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * Oh-la-la! ("Yikes!") 12.42.161.3 (talk) 19:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * do you consider these to be english phrases because they are in your dictionnary ? Does hors d'&oelig;uvres sound english to you ? Ant


 * Absolutely yes. The fact this it derives from the French does not mean it's not part of the English language. The whole point of this article, as I understand it, is that phrases move across languages. People start using phrases from other languages, often because there is no equivalent in (in this case) English. As a phrase gets used more and more it becomes more widely understood, and eventually gets accepted into English, like Restaurant, or 'a la mode' in North America. I would say that if a word is in an English dictionary it's part of English. DJ Clayworth 18:18, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * curious. We widely use week-end, which is an english word, and is in our dictionary. We would never try to pretend it is a french word. Very curious. I think that page is basically meaningless then :-) ant

The article seems to define itself into oblivion. If a term is genuine French and rarely used by the English, then people object. On the other hand, if it is so widely used that it is in some English dictionaries, people also object. What's left? A few phrases in the transitional phase? Perhaps we should rename it English phrases of recent French derivation.Anjouli 18:41, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * Basically as a reply to everyone: As far as what constitutes "used by English speakers", it really depends on what part of the English-speaking world you come from. The only French phrases I've seen in American films are coup d'état and names of dishes like "crème brulée" and "flambé" and "hors d'œuvre". But when I read "The Time Traveler's Wife", I saw a LOT of French in it. But then the repertoire (<--- !!!) changes again when you look at Canada, where French is one of our official languages. I've only been thinking about it recently, but we use French fairly often, even if only for short, simple phrases like:
 * "Pourquoi?" ("Why?")
 * "Allô[?]" ("Hello[?]" — I know it's only used for answering the phone in France, but here we use it much like "Hello?" — as in "Is anybody there...?")
 * "Bonjour" ("Hello"/"Good day")
 * "Au revoir[!]" ("Goodbye[!]") Sometimes we also use "À bientôt[!]" ("See you later[!]")
 * "Merci (beaucoup)" ("Thank you [very much]")
 * "De rien" ("You're welcome"/"It's nothing")
 * "Oui" ("Yes") We sometimes use "Non", but not often...
 * "Oh mon Dieu!" ("Oh my God!" — I don't know if this phrasing would ever be used in France, but it's what we say.)
 * If you learn French in school, it's hard to draw the line between what is "used by English speakers" and what is a phrase you're using just because you know French XD. It would be best if this list were pretty much universal, though. NoriMori (talk) 07:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Phrases mentioned in English dictionaries, but in italics, or with French diacritics and/or French pronunciation, are exactly what is supposed to be listed here. So: coup de grâce pron. koo de(r) grass, not kowp dee grayce; coup d'état pron. (approx.) koo day tah, not kowp dee tatt; je ne sais quoi pron. zhe(r)n say kwah, not djee nee sice quoy; hors-d'œuvre pron. or-de(r)vr; sauté pron. sowtay, not sawtee; déjà vu pron. day-zhah vü or day-zhah view, not dee-jay voo, garçon pron. gar-sõ (nasalised), not gar-sonn or gar-konn. Notice the acute, grave and circumflex accents, the cedilla, the mandatory oe digraph, and the definitely non-English pronunciation. (ü approx. as in German; e(r) with non-rhotic [not pronounced] "r") -- Tonymec 05:11, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I would have to agree with Tonymec, that this page is a good place to put words of French origin that are commonly used by English speakers, but are not yet to the point where English speakers use English "sounds" to speak them. Except the line is a bit blurry, for example: "a la mode" seems to me at this point to be fully English, to the point where many people speaking it don't even think of it as French and pronounce it with English sounds. You might say that this page creates a false category, wherein words that have been adopted into English to wildly varying degrees are lumped together only because their original pronunciations are "exotic" to English speakers, or because they simply "look French", which could be entirely different from person to person.


 * In any case, it seems that if this page is to remain the opening paragraph should explain better what belongs here and what doesn't, rather than referring to words that do or do not "need italics". -- Cesoid 23 October 2005


 * I've added some entries with Cesoid's criterion in mind, i.e., "words of French origin that are commonly used by English speakers, but are not yet to the point where English speakers use English 'sounds' to speak them." Some may be borderline, but for the most part I delberately left out words that struck me as just-the-normal-way-to-say-it (e.g., entrepreneur, façade, masseuse, negligee) as opposed to words that people kind of go out of their way to flaunt as Gallicisms (e.g., bon vivant, déclassé, hauteur). I also left out food words (e.g., coq au vin, filet mignon, pâté de foie gras), just to avoid opening a can of worms (bon appétit). I basically had in mind two imaginary types of readers of the page: Englsih-speakers who would like to sound tres precious and need a crib sheet; and francophones who might be curious about what English-speakers do with their language. Squib 19:56, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

RSVP
This is in the English and French section: répondez s'il vous plaît (R.S.V.P.), but I have been told in the past the French people never write RSVP on invitations etc. Should this be moved to the English but not in French section, or was I misinformed? Fabiform 00:06, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * we do sometimes use RSVP on invitation SweetLittleFluffyThing


 * As I noted on the main page, I haven't seen RSVP in French but I have seen RSLP in invitations engraved using Script typography, and written in the third person, as in:


 * La baronne Arthur de Montcul de Pétépluhaux prie [blank space] de lui faire l'honneur d'assister au mariage de sa fille Anne-Aymone avec le chevalier Auguste-Onésime du Pont du Rang. (then details about the where & when, and at the bottom:) R.S.L.P. (followed by the address of the baroness). (And I could translate this carton but maybe not explain to English-only-speakers why it is funny in French.) -- Tonymec 05:21, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Though it may not be widely used, it is common enough. Plus, SVP is already widely used in French. Carthae 19:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Edit : I checked in the French Wikipedia, it exists.

Croître
I took out croître. When has this word ever been dropped into an English sentence, for goodness' sake? The whole rationale (<-- now there's one French word that does get used in English!) of this article seems to me somewhat dubious. 22.48 GMT on 5 March 2004.

Lists of English words of international origin
I stumbled across Lists of English words of international origin yesterday; there's an as yet unused entry for French - List of English words of French origin. I thought people who worked on this article might like to work on this list - it's probably the place where many of the "French" words which haven't made the cut for this article (hors d'ouvres, croissant, etc) should go. fabiform | talk 12:31, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

MAYDAY (again)
The marine distress signals based on French (MAYDAY, pan pan, et al), are now covered in detail on the Mayday page, so we have some duplication now. Which may be fine, but just a heads-up. Best, --257.47b.9½.-19 22:59, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Cul de sac
Cul de sac is widely used in everyday and contemporary spoken French. Nothing vulgar about it. The sign boards use impasse or voie sans issue. The latest being more like administrative jargon, that no one would use in a conversation. Dents de Lion (Dandelion) is another word borrowed by English language, still in widespread use in France and Switzerland along with the mundane pissenlit.


 * By the way, it's now on List of English words of French origin, I think it belongs there rather than here because it's an English word/phrase now too. fabiform | talk 15:38, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I was just in rural Quebec last week; dead-end roads were signposted "CUL DE SAC" where I'd see "NO EXIT" in Ontario. Some of those signs were newly made; I get the sense it's not completely out of date. Radagast 18:08, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)


 * Indeed, while "cul" is equivalent to "arse" (Commonwealth English) / "ass" (US English) in some contexts, it is equivalent to "bottom" in others (meaning both "lower end" and "the buttocks or anus"), which is a neutral word in English. The French talk about "le cul d'une bouteille" (the bottom of a bottle). So "cul de sac" is has the literal translation "bottom of bag", not "arse/ass of bag". &mdash; Paul G 10:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

English-speakers?
Is it me, or is there some convention under which "English-speakers" with a hyphen means those who speak English, and "English speakers" with no hyphen means speakers who are English? Michael Hardy 20:46, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The "Italics" Rule?
The so-called rule in the article that I've quoted below is very inexact and highly subjective, and thus doesn't belong as part of an encylopedia entry. I was tempted to just delete it ( Be bold!), but felt that it was probably better to solicit comments on the Talk page first before I did. gK [[User talk:GK|&iquest;?]] 08:29, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * "The general rule is that if the word or phrase looks better in italics, it has retained its French identity, but if it doesn't need italics, it has probably passed over into English."


 * It's a rule of thumb, pretty handy in this context, which is hardly over-encyclopedic (but entertaining). No harm done by keeping it.  Ortolan88 05:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, that rule of thumb is highly subjective and therefore practically useless. Thus, it has no place in an enclopedia because it does do harm.


 * Because I had to do some searching for some other grammar information, I checked several online grammar and style guides. Although all but one said that foreign words should be in italics (the exception being the US Govt. Printing Office), they included no guideliness on how to determine what was still a foreign word and what had been naturalized except the rather vague idea of "common knowledge". The Economist, in their style guide had examples of words that would italacize that I would never think to put into italics, such as apartheid and status quo. The Chicago Manual of Style's Q&A section  did suggest relying upon a good dictionary, and even suggests that with the improvements in modern typesetting that accents will probably become more common. The real fun on my search, however, was reading what Fowler (The King’s English, 2nd ed.  1908.) had to say on using foreign words in English

.

re: Seemingly French phrases used in English, but not in French
Shouldn't this section say something about the words and phrases being false friends? gK [[User talk:GK|&iquest;?]] 05:35, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would have to agree that this section needs some kind of introduction.

In addition, it almost looks like the list pertains only to the present and ignores whether some of these phrases might have been a figure of speech that has passed out of common French usage. This might not be the case, but declining to mention this possibility at all makes the list less believable. Or perhaps the intended implication is that all of these phrases were once used in French and are no more. Either way something should be said about it (by someone who knows the answer...not me!). cesoid 23 October 2005

Nom de Plume
I've just spotted this is in both sections one and two, which read as though they should be mutually exclusive - so which is correct? Thryduulf 11:48, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sang froid
I would like to suggest an entry for "sang froid." What say you all? Eddieuny 05:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * What does it mean?
 * the NOED has it written in one word, while in French it's always sang-froid (hyphenated). It's defined there as [ mass noun ] composure or coolness as shown in danger or under trying circumstances -- Origin: mid 18th cent. from French sang-froid, literally "cold blood". -- Tonymec 05:29, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Useful Links

 * I used to find this pretty useful.

Moved from Talk:née
How do you explain to someone with a tin ear how affected née looks in ordinary contexts? Look at Wikipedia's entries for popes: they're all né instead of "born" like normal folks! Genteel piety? "Benjamin Franklin, né in Philadelphia..." *erk* I don't think so! --Wetman 15:51, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Whilst entertaining for about 3 seconds, I think that the joke of

replacing "Born" with "Nee" and then adding references to "Nee To Be Wild" (etc) is perhaps past its three seconds of amusement. I never expected to be deleting something as my first contribution. Oh well. Out they go Telsa 22:29, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * So it's alright to replace "née" with "born" in articles then? I've done it once or twice and added "This is not the French Wikipedia - use English!" to the discussion page, but I wasn't sure whether that was acceptable. I have no problem with French, and in fact I speak it, but there are many, many people who are monolingual English speakers and using any language other than English in the English Wikipedia just seems insensible. 67.160.224.250 20:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I would say not. Wholesale changes like that tend to be controversial and generate more heat than light, and I would advise extreme caution.  'Leaving as the author of the first non-stub article wrote it' is the general rule for avoiding controversy - think of it as a means of embracing the diversity of the english language, which gladly steals 'loan-words' from everywhere. Opinions on this, and many other topics differ, and tend to attract zealotry. It's far better to contribute a well written article in whatever form of english you are comfortable with than to go around making seemingly minor edits that generate edit wars. Hope that helps. WLD 17:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

RSVP (again)
It seems that people are often using RSVP as a replacement for reply. I've got mails saying "Please RSVP", "Cover: $12 if you RSVP on time" or "Thank you to everyone who sent an RSVP". Considering that RSVP actually translates into Please reply, these phrases don't really make sense. Should this fact be mentioned in the article? Luzian 19:39, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

names from French?
What about names for groups of people etc used in English that come from French? like Khmers Rouges (a Cambodian political group) or Nez Percé (an aboriginal people of North America) Would they qualify for this page?


 * Well... I don't know. If Nez Percé qualifies, then what about place names from the "Louisiana Purchase" states, from Baton Rouge (Bâton Rouge, French for "Red Stick") to Detroit (Détroit, French for "Straits" as in Straits of Dover)? &mdash; Tonymec 21:08, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Belorussian and German links
IIUC, the Belorussian and German links on this article page resend to individual culinary specialties, not to collections of French phrases. I don't understand what they are doing here. - Tonymec 05:40, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Missing Phrase
I can't believe this isn't in here. Voulez vous couche avec mwa. ce swa? or something like that. It means: Do you want to sleep with me. This evening. I heard this in pop culture and in a song from Moulin Rouge. I didn't put it in because I don't know how to spell it.--God of War 17:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

It's "Voulez-vous couche avec moi. Ce sois" proper spelling
 * "Voulez-vous coucher avec moi (ce soir) ?" :) Korg (talk) 01:55, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's "voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir?" meaning "will you sleep with me tonight?" (idiomatic translation; a literal translation is "do you want to lie down with me this evening?"). Is this really used outside the song lyrics? &mdash; Paul G 10:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Fiancé(e)
Surely this word is so commonplace in English, it shouldn't be here? Dybeck 04:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC) Yes ---but the french spelling and pronunciation makes me suggest that it should be included.Osborne 08:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Grand Prix
Surely this phrase is also so commonplace in English, it shouldn't be here. Dybeck 04:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Liaison
This one definitely shouldn't be here (commonplace English usage). Dybeck 04:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Mousse
And I also believe this one shouldn't be here (commonplace English usage). Dybeck 04:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Pardon
'Pardon' has appeared here. While I can see somebody pronouncing this word in a French manner, perhaps for comic effect, the word itself (in this sense) has been in the English language since 1548 (according to the Online Etymology dictionary). Should this be here?

No - it is fully absorbed into modern English. - Well I think so! Osborne 09:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Petard
The article defines this as a "metaphorical trap" in the sense of "hoist by one's own petard" and mentions the meaning as a medieval weapon. But really the phrase is "hoist on one own petard" and as such "petard" is used in a perfectly acceptable way and should be moved to the regular list Sumergocognito 03:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Move this page?
... to list of French phrases used in English? It seems more to the point. It's not phrases used by English-speaking people when they're speaking French. Michael Hardy 23:24, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree. Kevlar67 08:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree. The reference to "speaking" confuses the point. Louche 23:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Serious Revision
One, this article is way too long, and includes such expressions that I never even heard when I lived in France, and definitely have not heard in casual English speech. If there are not objections, I am going to remove approximately a fifth of these entries.

Two, I think this article should have words and phrases that are obviously French in origin like "Au contraire" and "coup d'état," even if they are in English dictionaries and everyone knows what they mean. This article should not be a list of expressions occaisonally used by hoity-toits.

(The reason I feel moved to do this is a West African colleague of mine -- after being surprised by how many words in French he asked for translations for could still be said in French while "speaking" English -- asked if I knew of a list of French expressions commonly used in English, so he can immediately augment his so-so English vocabulary. I immediately thought of wikipedia, but I don't want to send him this list because I feel it will send the wrong impression that so many French words can be used in conversation with monolingual anglophones, i.e. "à outrance," "bon ton," - are these really used by English speakers? "comme-ci, comme-ça" is fine, but isn't "comment allez-vous?" just straight-up French?)

Thoughts? JesseRafe 05:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed about 40-45 entries. Each letter at a time for clarification. Man, this is tedious! And I don't assume my say is final, any of them can be placed back on this list, I'm just trying to do my part to sieve out the useful from the simply "French". JesseRafe 03:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd replace: arriviste, au fait, manqué, métier, moue, lèse majesté, longueur, Louis Quinze, gamine, grande dame, frisson, embarras de richesse, all of which are used in English texts. There was a point in Britain when it was 'de rigeur' for people to have more than a passing knowledge of French to be regarded as educated.  As a result, much french was used in texts of the period, only really petering out in the last 30 years or so. Knowledge of Latin and Ancient Greek have gone the same way. If usages are not current, then I'd suggest not simply deleting them, but marking them as obsolete/archaic - as any reader of older texts will have greater need of an easily available translation now than in the past, when the assumption that they would be obvious was more likely to be correct. WLD 10:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Go ahead and re-add them. I was going to make another pass later today, removing a few more (the article is very beginning-of-the-alphabet heavy), so maybe you'd like to not add them until tomorrow?
 * Maybe the fact you're in England has some effect on the texts you read and come across these words more, whereas I'm in America and don't come across those words in normal writing, just perhaps in older British literature.
 * What I really want from this article is a list of unarguable words/expressions like "au naturel" and "a la mode" and "coup d'état" more than a large list of a specialized lexicon.
 * What you're suggesting for the archaic marker isn't a bad idea, and I was thinking of similar things to mark "déjà lu" and "déjà entendu" as, what I perceive, offshoots of "déjà vu", which is a very English expression now, and "déjà lu" just seems like a clever play off it, and one would have to know French to get it, rather than "déjà vu" which almost everyone knows. JesseRafe 16:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think this is way off base. The list needs to be more coherently defined first and only then pared down. (And yes, it does need to be pared down.) If anything, the article should be more "a list of expressions occaisonally used by hoity-toits" than "French expressions commonly used in English". Specifically, the article does not exist for the benefit of Francophones learning English, so the standard being applying here is pretty much wrecking the page. I'd like to see most of the deletions restored until some reasonable criteria are established for what would make this page the most useful and appropriate. Louche 23:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It appears as if we absolutely and fundamentally disagree over this point. (Also I didn't mean to say I was doing this for his benefit, but just think of how hard it would be to be understood if you thought that all of these words on this list were allowable English).
 * Also I fully expected people to want to add some words back, which is why I edited down in the manner that I did, so that restoring the missing ones can be done at a glance, but I just wanted to start the ball rolling on what I thought needed to be down and could naturally follow no criteron other than my own. Perhaps separate sections for the "bon voyage" and "Chez Josephine"s and the hoity-toit words? JesseRafe 03:12, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

pièce de résistance
Is this really used in english to say the best? i think of it as meaning more, the final or finishing touch. WookMuff 09:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It is seen in that context, as the pièce de résistance is often saved for the coup de grace. Louche 17:12, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Except that it doesn't exist in French... it's a plat de résistance. Carthae 19:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Best use capital "E" in English!

bourgeois and bourgeoisie
The definitions to these words incorrectly refer to the "privileged class" when in fact these words refer to the middle class.

Reference: http://www.answers.com/bourgeoisie&r=67

I've changed both entries to read middle class. Fricka 07:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

lieu
I've heard countless people say "in lieu of...". Isn't this of French origin or derivation? Chuffable 02:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Lieu entered Middle English by at least A.D. 1250-1300 (via Old French). It's an English word. Louche 17:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge from List of French phrases
Any reason why List of French phrases is on a separate page? There's tonnes of overlap 'tween the two pages, and both have pretty much the same purpose. --Dangherous 15:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The initial reason was that List of French phrases used by English speakers orginally was not correctly categorised, and was also (and even now) not a pure list format - the separate air-sea rescue and english only sections would need to be hived off into separate articles. Note that there are similar pages for Spanish, German, Latin and Greek, so a modicum of standardiastion might well be appropriate. WLD 17:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say the merge should go the other way--Josquius 10:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

How about bon vivant? Can we add that to the list?
How about bon vivant? Can we add that to the list?

Non-neutral tone
In particular, the parenthetical addition to "Do you want to sleep with me tonight" is quite unnecessary. The implication is that an English speaker might go to France and start spouting this off to anyone he/she sees. Of course, it is quite rude to say this phrase in most cultures, including English speaking cultures.

Phonetic pronunciation guides
It would be much more helpful if for each term there were also provide a phonetic pronunciation guide such as included in dictionaries with all word definitions. Jim S.


 * My thoughts exactly. An audio file would be even better. Any French speakers around? 85.76.3.176 (talk) 17:55, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I could add to this list?
[Best check my spelling - it's bad in English!] I could add with some notes on the source and my opinion of the meaning. However as there seems to be confusion as to which article it should be and how it should be presented I am confused as to what to do! Osborne So here are some, I have omitted those already included unless I have a source (delete as you wish) Perhaps best check that I am correct in considering these French!

attaché (A.Beevor, 2002. Berlin, The Downfall 1945. Viking, Penguin Group, London. ISBN 0-670-88695-5)

au pair

ambiance

baroque

boutique bourgeois

beret bruisque (A.Beevor, 2002. Berlin, The Downfall 1945. Viking, Penguin Group, London. ISBN 0-670-88695-5)

communiqué (A.Beevor, 2002. Berlin, The Downfall 1945. Viking, Penguin Group, London. ISBN 0-670-88695-5)

chaperon chagrin

clique (A.Beevor, 2002. Berlin, The Downfall 1945. Viking, Penguin Group, London. ISBN 0-670-88695-51)

debut (Ulster Orchestra programme)

enterpreneur élite (A.Beevor, 2002. Berlin, The Downfall 1945. Viking, Penguin Group, London. ISBN 0-670-88695-51);(Alcock, A. 1998. ''A Short History of Europe." St Martins Press, Inc., ISBN 0 312 21003 5 p.151)

emigré (p.174. Alcock, A. 1998. A Short History of Europe. ISBN 0 337 64830 7)

exposé

façade (A.Beevor, 2002. Berlin, The Downfall 1945. Viking, Penguin Group, London. ISBN 0-670-88695-51) fraças eschew chauvinism

mayonnaise nonchalant nuance malaise poignant (p.332. R.Winston. The Story of God. Bantam Press .ISBN 0593 05493 8)

picnic

precis [panache - where does this come from?] penchant première (Ulster Orchestra programme)

nuance maisonette

paunch

rapport

résumé

régime (p.174. Alcock, A. 1998. A Short History of Europe. ISBN 0 337 64830 7)

suave,

bouquet unique sachet protégé débâcle (p 142. A.Beevor, 2002. Berlin, The Downfall 1945. Viking, Penguin Group, London. ISBN 0-670-88695-5) expose encore

sortie (A.Beevor, 2002. Berlin, The Downfall 1945. Viking, Penguin Group, London. ISBN 0-670-88695-5)

vis-à-vis (Alcock, A. 1998. A Short History of Europe. St Martins Press, Inc., ISBN 0 312 21003 5 p.151;175)

Others: Time magazine, personal knowledge, Belfast Telegraph etcOsborne 10:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. bungalow is Indian I believe.

Such words are NOT found in scientific literature or in the Bible. Science reguires a massive Glossary.Osborne 08:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Coup de grace
I have no references, it's too old a notion for me, so you can consider it mere hearsay. But in old times, when fighting in war (or duel) was a personal matter, and hope from medical aid was an unusual notion, it was considered inconsiderate and cruel to leave the opponent so badly wounded as to be bound to long and painful agony and not to give him a blow of mercy to end his suffering.--Xyzt1234 15:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

And please remember Coup de grace is not the French for lawnmower. Robbie69 (talk) 14:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Entrepreneur
Would it be wrong to include George W. Bush's famous quote "The French have no word for Entrepreneur", or is it just inapropriate? I personally find it funny because I'm bilingual, and entrepreneur is a French word Midgitboy 19:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If for no other reason, it would be wrong because there's no real evidence he ever actually said it --Miskwito 23:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I notice cause célèbre is listed both in the main section and the special "English-only" section. Brickc1 21:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Why not 'List of English words and phrases used by French Speakers?'
This probably isn't the right place to discuss, but what the heck. Why is there so many articles and things devoted to telling us how the English language is a mix up of many others. I typed in the above title (ie. List of English..) and found nothing, yet I am sure that there must be English words that are in use in the French Language, or is it totally one-sided? Whenever I type the question into google it simply switches the places of the languages, so giving me the results of a question I didn't ask.. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 09:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

See http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mots_fran%C3%A7ais_d%27origine_anglaise in French —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.173.107.52 (talk) 14:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * A shorter syntax for that link is fr:Mots français d'origine anglaise. —Tamfang (talk) 23:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You might also be interested in the links at Anglicisms. Langrel (talk) 00:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * What I'm about to say if of some relevance but why is it that their are all these articles telling English people basically how their so diverse, with articles such as English people of Irish ancestry, English people of Scottish ancestry ect, but none vice versa I'm sure that there are more Irish and Scottish people with English ancestry than their diaspora on England as a percentage. 86.186.3.245 (talk) 22:15, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Suggest give a reference of use for each enterance
de rigueur    ref. Richard Morrison The Times2 10th July 2008. p.4

fêted
“He was fêted and fested.” (p.179. Atkinsn, J. 1968. “Martin Luther and the Birth of Protestanism.” Peguin Books.)Osborne 09:11, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverted phrases
212.27.60.48 (talk) 06:46, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Why put "pièce d'occasion" in both the sections "not used as such in English and "used in French and English equally" ?
 * Crudité doesn't have the same definition in French and English.
 * Je m'en fous is not "somewhat" rude, it is completely so (unlike 'je m'en fiche'). It should be translated as something rude.
 * Léger de main doesn't exist in French.
 * Ooh la la, derived from 'oh la la': isn't only for women in French.

Je me rends
"Traditional French Battlecry" I don't think Englishmen really use this. Also, it's not a battlecry but a term of surrender (I give up). So I'm deleting it. 212.27.60.48 (talk) 19:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Calling a shout of surrender a French battlecry sounds like typical jokes Americans make about the French, if intentional, this should be considered vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.44.83 (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Je m'appelle
French for 'my name is'. Is it really used by English speakers ? 82.225.157.186 (talk) 07:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I know I've heard it somewhere, and understood the meaning before you explained the meaning, so either I can't remember what I've learned in all of the small amount of shows I've watched and stuff I've read on French clearly enough (I have a very  good memory and it really is a small amount), or it is used in English. This is remarkably similar to when I saw au revoir on the Wikipedia article about French. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.44.83 (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

toupe
toupe. is that a word?69.122.62.231 (talk) 23:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

c'est la guerre !
Well I have only ever heard this used as "That's war.." (loose translation "Don't you know there's a war on?"). I would suggest removing "this is (means) war". Comments? Rich Farmbrough, 12:16 6 October 2008 (UTC).

Coup D'état
I would have thought such a common (though usually the é is e or the d'état is removed for shortening purposes) phrase would be in here. The fact that this got away means this page probably needs a template at the top stating the list is incomplete, while you'll all be debating (hopefully) I'll go add coup d'état in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.44.83 (talk) 01:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Apparently it is in "Not used as such in French" section, though having it not in the c section does defeat the purpose of alphabetic ordering. I recommend restructuring the categorization system for this article, perhaps put the word or phrase in both the letter section and other sections. Addition of Coup d'état to c section I have reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.44.83 (talk) 01:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It is used in France (although without the funky capitalization above). Much of international law and UN documents are defined first in French because of precision and then translated into English.


 * --UnicornTapestry (talk) 21:01, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Entries
I added several common words while trying to avoid the very, very common (such as baton).

I notice above there was a purge a couple of years ago, partly from a person unfamiliar with common vocabulary and partly from a genuine concern this could get out of control.

Do we have any guidelines where to draw the line? If not, shouldn't we work something up?

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 21:09, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Recent changes
While I agree with additions and most corrections, there are three that I question.

is the term commonly used by French women, not brassiere. Yes, the word is originally French, and yes, French know what the word is, but French don't use it. Whichever list it falls in, both words were French and deserved to be shown one place or the other.
 * bra

does have an accent in English, as shown by the OED, the OED of American English, and the American Heritage Dictionary. Only the AHD lists the word without the accent as the secondary (not preferred) spelling. (AHD shows it hyphenated, the OED does not.)
 * porte cochère

is a single word in English, but comprised of two French words, demi and glaze. OED lists this, the AHD does not.
 * demi-glaze

I confess to being troubled by chauvinism. While I recognize the french word ends in 'e', it's so clearly French being named after a French soldier. If we consider the word spoonerism, would spoonerisme be French or English? I'm not sure, but I lean toward the country of origin.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 19:12, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hiya!
 * Porte cochère : you're right, I should have checked better the English usage.
 * Bra : I'm French, and I've never heard of that. My friend, a French teacher, doesn't know about it either. To be extra sure, I checked on the dictionary of the Académie française. The only link I found is that brassière comes from bras (arm), pronounced "bra". Maybe that's why you made a confusion ? Also, something that should be added to the article, the French term of brassière has nothing to do with an English bra - the French equivalent would be soutien-gorge (abbreviated as soutif). In French, a brassière is a garment for a baby of the strap of a carrypack.
 * Glaze : I made the same checks : it doesn't exist in French. The correct term is "glace", not glaze. It comes from 'vin de glace' (ice wines).
 * Triomphe l'oeil = did you mean trompe-l'oeil ?


 * 82.225.157.186 (talk) 00:10, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * >Triomphe l'oeil = did you mean trompe-l'oeil ?


 * (laughing) I can't get that right for anything. My conclusion is that you're got the right answers. Thank you for working through this with me.


 * I bow to your wisdom on 'glaze'. Why don't you write up 'brassière'? I'll change porte cochère. Then I think we (mainly you) have got it.


 * Again, thank you. --UnicornTapestry (talk) 03:21, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Crêpe
The section "crêpe" is misleading. As it stands: "a thin sweet or savoury pancake eaten as a light meal or dessert. In French, a crêpe can only be sweet, unlike a "galette". It can be eaten as a dessert, or, if you take several (while oftentimes varrying the top), a very nourishing meal. It is the custom, for example, to eat such a meal during Mardi gras."

Crêpe actually means much the same in English and French: a thin pancake with a topping. In English one distinguishes between "sweet" and "savory" crêpes. In French, this same distinction is made, as "crêpes sucrées" or "crêpes salées" (literal translation: sweet crêpes and salty crêpes!) In some crêperies in Québec the difference between crêpes is sometimes "crêpes dessert" and "crêpes repas" (dessert crêpes and dinner crêpes), which may be a Québec-only description. I have seen the crêpes sucrées-crêpes salées distinction in both French and Québécois cookbooks and media.

In Canadian French a "galette" is frequently used to describe sweet pastries and rarely used to describe a crêpe. It usually refers to what you might call a cookie in English: here is an example - http://www.recettes.qc.ca/recettes/recette.php?id=2721&rdj=&pub=. It can also refer to the galette des rois, which is a large pastry with a filling, or as a slang term for money. There is no real English approximation for the word galette. I would describe it as meaning "round flat cake or pastry-like food, usually sweet, but not always, that can come in a variety of sizes." I think in France "galette" is only used regionally in Bretagne to describe a buckwheat crêpe and the idea of a galette as a round flat dessert is much more common, as well.

While eating crêpes is indeed an old-school pre-Lent custom, the decline in observing Lent has led to a decline in the importance of mardi gras traditions in many French-speaking countries. It would be more important to note the day specifically dedicated to eating crêpes in France, le Chandeleur, 2 February. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.6.248 (talk) 02:26, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I deleted the sentence. There is no such a "crêpe bretonne" word in France that actualy means "salted crêpe". In addition to the comment below, you can also say "crêpe de blé noir"/"crêpe de sarrasins" (a kind of wheat) for salted pancake and "crêpe de froment" (another kind of wheat) for sweet pancake. "Galette" means a thicker crêpe, mostly salted, in Britanny (The French capital of crêpe!). Esqua (talk) 15:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Some clues from a French of France ^^ First you must say "la Chandeleur" or "le jour de la Chandeleur" not "le Chandeleur". Then, "galette" means a few things: the cake made of almond paste Twelfth-Night pancake (in some regions it's not that cake but some wreath not made of almond, but it's also called "galette des Rois" despite the fact it's a wreath not flat), the "crêpe bretonne" here not only used regionally but throughout all the country (when you're talking about a "galette" its depends on the context to know which sort, but it's mostly "des Rois" around desert and January or the "crêpe bretonne" made of "blé noir/sarrasin" if you're going to the restaurant), and finally the biscuits made with butter and eggs by "St Michel" "galette pur beurre". Also, have a look here. --Gandalfcobaye (talk) 17:55, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Depanneur
This word most certainly does exist as a word in French, in Quebec French. The sense is as convenience store, that is to say, a place that gets you out of trouble, as in the sense of a depanneur as a person who gets you out of trouble by fixing something.

"Eastern Canada" is also inappropriate, as it is only in Quebec and in some parts of New Bruswick that anyone will have any idea what the word means...in Eastern coastal provinces, people will just be confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.216.90.246 (talk) 07:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

naïve and naïveté
These are French words, but they are also English words and are properly listed in List of English words of French origin rather than in this article. They are commonly understood words that are relatively standard English usage. See Webster, for example, pr Encarta or even Urban. SDY (talk) 01:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

On the same account, I'd like to remove the following words from the list as they are commonly used in English by English speakers who have no clue that the words are also French: They would be moved to the List of English words of French origin, but that article explicitly states that it is in the process of being transwiki'ed to Wiktionary and that no more should be added. SDY (talk) 01:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ballet
 * Bureau
 * Genre
 * Impasse
 * Sabotage (saboteur less so)
 * Unique
 * Voyeur


 * I think those words, though maybe not impasse or unique, respect the definition of a French word used by English speakers which was given in the introduction of the article. 82.225.157.186 (talk) 15:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * SDY is right in this matter; these words have no business here but belong in List of English words of French origin. The only ones which are not wholly Angilcized are genre and voyeur and this is merely a matter of spelling or pronunciation. The notice that no more words should be added to English words of French origin because it is in the process of being transwiki'ed to Wiktionary dates from 5 November 2005 — if the talk page discussion is any indication — and I took the liberty of removing it. So it is high time to separate the sheep from the goats. — Robert Greer (talk) 18:39, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Might we add
PS Might we add to the list:


 * belle
 * brunette
 * café
 * chauffeur
 * café au lait
 * chaise longue
 * cliché
 * clique
 * concierge
 * cul-de-sac
 * dressage
 * en route
 * entrepreneur
 * étude

And perhaps:


 * cachet
 * carte blanche
 * dossier
 * élan
 * entrée

— Robert Greer (talk) 19:56, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Introduction
I touched up the end of the introduction. I added "all" to "Few of these phrases are common knowledge to all English speakers, ..." Without the word "all", I can trivially disprove it, using myself as an example. My other idea is the more extensive change "These phrases vary widely in what fraction of English speakers use and/or understand them." But even that seems forced. If someone else wants to try clarifying that concept, I won't be offended by a re-edit. Larry Doolittle (talk) 22:55, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Orange
Why, exactly, is orange on this list? 208.42.242.211 (talk) 04:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

marquee ?
marquee ? Are you sure it's from marquis(e)? . It wouls make more sense if it was from Marquée ("written")

A French guy.

glo (talk) 10:39, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

je m'appelle
I'm sorry, but I've never heard this used in the popular lexicon. I've heard English speakers say this when speaking French, but thats as close as it gets. If someone said "je m'appelle" to me, I would say " je ne parle pas français", or "I don't speak French". Tominator93 (talk) 20:22, 27 November 2009 (UTC)