Talk:List of Fruits Basket characters/Archive 1

Rooster?
The article seems to say that the curse of the Rooster has already been lifted. It also says that he is reluctant to show his animal form. If his curse has been lifted, does he still have an animal form? DavidJohns 00:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Once the curse is lifted, he has no animal form at all. Everything related to the zodiac is gone once the curse is lifted. -- Tohru  Honda 13Sign here! 00:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge Suggestions
As part of the clean up work on the Fruits Basket articles, I've suggested some more minor character articles be merged into the Fruits Basket characters as the articles all fail WP:FICT and most have not been touched in months other than vandalism removal. I believe they can all be easily cleaned up and incorporated into this article. AnmaFinotera (talk) 09:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * BTW, I support this, based on the listing on the article page. There's others who could also possibly stand to be merged. —Quasirandom (talk) 20:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Not that we can actually start the merge until the ArbCom injunction is lifted.... —Quasirandom (talk) 20:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd actually like to merge them all in, but I figure minor is a good start. True on the actual merge, though from my understanding we can put in the content now, just not do the actual redirecting and stuff. AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * True enough. I think, after I finish the last two manga volume summaries, I'll get started on that. Especially since, in Wikiland, silence equals consensus when it comes to merges. But I'll open a new heading for the cleanup. —Quasirandom (talk) 20:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Now that the ArbCom injunction has been lifted, and with more than 10 days passed since the merge was proposed with no objections, the decision is to merge the proposed articles. I'll start working on that over the next couple days. —Quasirandom (talk) 01:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * There: Kakeru Manabe merged, with references added. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Kyoko Honda merged, with references added. Slightly plotty, but I think enough of her character comes through without getting OR-ish. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Also: Motoko Minagawa was already tagged for merging, so I added it to the mergefrom tag on this page. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And because it was easy, Katsuya Honda merged, with references. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Kimi Toudou done. I left one bit as needing citation, though I'm not sure it requires one, as I couldn't find the scene quickly. —Quasirandom (talk) 00:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Volume 12, Chapter 66 for Yun-Yun (though Kakeru came up with it), for her sometimes referring to herself by her own name, and for the fan club hatred. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Coo. Tho' what I want is Kakeru's accusation of targetting boys with girlfriends. —Quasirandom (talk) 01:37, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Mitsuru merged, and that's it for me for the night. —Quasirandom (talk) 01:37, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Motoko Minagawa merged, and that's the list. On to the trimming mentioned below. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Another merge
I'm also proposing we merge Kazuma Sohma into this list, for the same rationales given above. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. While a good character, he doesn't meet WP:FICT at all for having a standalone article. AnmaFinotera (talk) 03:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

And with 10 days passed with no objections, the decision is merge. I'll do this today. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Kazuma's Grandfather
I don't know if this info is important or not but Kazuma's Grandfather is not really his blood relative.In volume 9 it says that he didn't get married and according to "Fruits Basket Uncovered" he possibly earned the title Grandfather because he took care of another person't child.Mooncrest (talk) 00:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that probably should be clarified, with a citation. AnmaFinotera (talk) 00:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Akito's gender
This may have been debated before, but I didn't find it. Per Wikipedia guidelines, people (including fictional characters) should be refered to using the pronoun they identify as. This means Akito, even the biologically female version of the manga, should always be refered to as "he." —Quasirandom (talk) 20:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * As Akito isn't trangendered and she never refers to herself as a male, that I can recall, she should be referred to with female pronouns. Others call her a male because that's what they have been led to believe, however in other anime/manga series where girls are pretending to be male for whatever reason, we still identify them as she/her, not he/him. AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In Japanese, Akito refers to himself with pronouns usually reserved for males (or especially self-confident females). In the manga, he was raised as a male, and he represents himself as male to everyone, including to one of the five people who know his biological gender. Only in private with the other four does he sometimes act as a female, and for that it's implied he only does this to manipulate them. In all meaningful senses, he is transgendered. (At least, for most of the series.) We should refer to him as male, while acknowledging his biological gender. —Quasirandom (talk) 23:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree. She is no different from any other character in other series where a male pretends to be female or visa versa.  In W Juliet, Makoto spends most of the time referring to himself as female, and presents himself as female, but with one or two, he does act female. We still refer to him as him. Now, if Akito was as warped as say, Dilandu from Escaflowne who was physically changed to  a male, then I could see the case for referring to her as him. While Akito has some mental issues, just like the rest of the Sohmas, she knows she is female and while she acts male as a result of her upbringing, her self-acknowledgment that she is female and her own lack of questioning (that I've seen) of what she really is means that she is not truly transgendered. Ritsu does the same, in reverse and just to a slightly lesser degree, acting as female. As he doesn't terrify the others, he's still referred to as a male and encouraged to be himself. It is not until the curse is broken, from what I've glimpsed, but Akito does still know she is female and finally accepts it when she finally gets over some of her own issues. Now, for some extra confusion, when referring to the anime incarnation, Akito should be referred to as male because the anime version is male.  :P AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ritsu is different, though, because he's only cross-dressing and neither pretends nor believes he ought to be female. Makoto is also different in that he's specifically acting -- it's a role to prove he's dedicated. Akito's hatred of his feminity is so strong it extends to hating all women, including and especially those of the zodiac; and he categorically refuses to admit to his mother that he is a woman. Though in that sentence, I've strayed into intepretation, rather than strict representation of the text. Per the text, though, he identifies as a male and should be refered to with male pronouns. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:39, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That text applies to real life people, not fictional characters where we "know" better and know the ending. Calling Akito male would be akin to hiding a spoiler, to me. AnmaFinotera (talk) 03:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm. I've been told that it also applies to fictional people as well and had my pronouns changed because of it. Perhaps we need to ask for clarification on the talk page of the guideline. —Quasirandom (talk) 04:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Might be a good idea :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Clean-up: the discussion
First of all, we need to decide what format to use: indented or no, beneath the headings. Though I'd like to also question using headings for the characters, especially ones with links to main articles, as the MOS strongly discourages links in headings. Maybe for those with independent articles (and there will be at least a couple, after merging, as the central three characters can easly establish notability), a Main link? And then under the heading, what format? Such a mix. —Quasirandom (talk) 20:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think headers are good, for easier finding, but agreed on the need to dump the links from headers and use proper mains. Big no no.  For format, I tend to prefer:

HEADER name, with nihongo as appropriate anime voices - where exists

text description


 * I'm not a big fan of the indenting in a separate list like this (wastes space, to me, and gets aggravating on multiple paragraphs). I'm also fine with anime voices and name being on the same line too, or the name being incorporated into the first sentence of the text and just having anime voices beneath the header. Its probably mixed because I started changing, but then stop to avoid spoilers :P  I disagree on the three mains establishing notability, but we can argue that later LOL AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I prefer leaving the nihongo for the first setence of the paragraph, rather than in the header. Lemme go edit one as an example. —Quasirandom (talk) 20:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There, List of Fruits Basket characters for an example. Though I'm not sure about the placement of the voices. Up front, though, seems to emphasize them too much. —Quasirandom (talk) 20:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That works for me. Voices at the end is actually whats in most MOS's for character sections, so no idea how it got to be under the headers. That the sample looks nicer and reads better. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Right -- I'll start converting the rest to that. Then we can start on the non-mechanical bits like merging the info and, for those with sub-articles, making sure the summary matches. Mmm, reconcilation -- my favorite editorial task. —Quasirandom (talk) 21:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't forget sourcing! Extra fun with, what 23 volumes, and 26 episodes :P AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That's part of the next pass. :-) —Quasirandom (talk) 21:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Do Satsuki Sohma and Momo Sohma really count as "major characters"? I can see an argument for Momo, given Tohru's reactions to her and Momiji's ... difficult relationship, but I'm still dubious. More so for Hiro's mother, who's pretty much just a grace note. —Quasirandom (talk) 01:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...while I love those stories (especially seeing what Hiro's mother is like compared to him), I wouldn't call them major and would think both could be given all necessary coverage within Hiro and Momiji's sections. AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, exactly. Right -- I'll mentally mark them as to be integrated into the other listings (and remove them from the template) in the next pass. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Three more dubious ones: Mine Kuramae (three scenes may qualify her, despite her limited role), Kunimitsu Tomoda (one scene plus occasional lines), and Komaki Nakao (two scenes, both of which are covered under Kakeru Manabe). Whadya say?
 * In counterballance, there's two we do need to add: Motoko Minagawa inexplicably isn't listed, and possibly the Prince Yuki Fan Club VP, who's in their homeroom (and plays Cinderella's wicked stepmother), and whose name I need to look up. —Quasirandom (talk) 04:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Mine I think would go under Ayame's well enough, as we really learn little about her other than her devotion to him (and that she likes to dress up). Some of her current section seems like a stretch, unless there is a lot more of her in the last five volumes than I'm expecting. I'm tempted to say throw all of the Prince Yuki Fan Club together...that's how they are almost always seen anyway :P I'd be fine with removing Kunimitsu all together, as he really doesn't do much.  His limited interactions could be covered in the relevant character sections (if that) and maybe in the appropriate volume summaries. I think I may have removed Motoko a few months ago, feeling she wasn't relevant enough for inclusion at the time. AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No, Mine's only in the last volumes in a flashback by Ayame and a couple frames during the climax, which add little to what we know about her (though they do add to what we know about Ayame). Kunimitsu does so little, I didn't mention him at all in the volume summaries. Mokoto, though, does already have her own article -- which needs merging -- and her confession, when she graduates, does have effects on both Yuki and the student council dynamics. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I've done all of the above except Mine. I've tried drafting the changes, but I do not at this time see a way to readily fit her into Ayame's character blurb or article. Possibly she can go into the latter after it's been cleaned up, but not as it is. So I'm moving on and will revisit her later. Next on my plate is to edit and primary source the rest of the blurbs on this page, with reference to the main character articles as I go. After that, I plan do a scrub on the main articles, adding as much primary sourcing as I can and splitting out Development information in its own sections per WP:MOS-AM; then reconcile per WP:SS the descriptions in each with here. Once THAT's done, I'll start sifting reviews for a reception section on the main page, if no one else has done so already (hint, hint); after which, I'll have familiarized myself with the secondary sources enough to start adding those to the character articles. How's that for a small plan? —Quasirandom (talk) 17:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * LOL, that hint for me? ;) I keep meaning to work on that one, though I have several reception sections in my to-do list.  If you want to concentrate on the character articles, though, including their clean up, I'll try to get to some more of the main article clean up and sourcing this week. AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Works for me. I'll copy my (few) collected reception links to the main article's talk page, in case they're useful. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Cool, thanks :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's another cleanup issue: can anyone make any sense of the order of the Sohmas? Yuki, Kyo, Akito, and Shigure definitely belong at the time, given their importance, but then it seems to have no rhyme or reason. It's not relevance/importance in the larger story. Not order of the zodiac. Nor of appearence. It's tempting to re-arrange them with Akito at the top, then the rest in their order of appearence as determined by their covers. Thoughts? —Quasirandom (talk) 05:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Good question. I'm kind of inclined to say go by order of appearance in the series, including Akito, though order of appearance with Akito at the top would also work. AnmaFinotera (talk) 06:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. Turned out it was mostly that, with just enough out of place to obscure the fact. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, here's another thing we need: a group shot of as many characters as possible. The splash page for, um, I'm forgetting the exact chapter number, but I think it's 66 -- shortly after the Kureno is introduced -- would be excellent: it's the two-page one with all the zodiac plus Tohru and Akito. I believe in the original magazine it was in color, which would make it perfect -- if we can track down a copy. It's possible it's reproduced in one of the fan books. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC) (ETA: yes, chapter 66 is the one I'm thinking of.) —Quasirandom (talk) 01:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

One more: the lead's too short. Is there any sort of general statements we can make about the reception / popularity of the characters? Sourced, of course. —Quasirandom (talk) 01:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...good question. Lots of sources for the popularity of the series, but not sure on the characters. I can't remember at the moment, but did any of the volumes ever include any popularity polls? AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Two that I know of, but only of relative popularity within the cast. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:37, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...maybe reviews that talk about the characters in general, such as noting they are interesting or the like? AnmaFinotera (talk) 03:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That's what I'm thinking. If you don't get to it, I'll see if I can swot something up when I do my pass for secondary sources for the individual characters. BTW, I finally got a copy of the Cat Fan-Book, which has a lot of non-at-all independent but useful info. —Quasirandom (talk) 04:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I meant to ask if you had a copy because I flipped through it earlier this week at the bookstore and saw it has some potentially useful info. I wish Tokyo Mew Mew had the same. I'm doing a similar clean up/merge there, but there isn't a lot of real-world info to add. AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:04, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I wish the second fan-book was out from Tokyopop, as it looks even better. But Banquet, I suspect, will wait till volume 23 and the end of it all. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, the Cat Fan-Book so far looks mostly useful for the extended author interview, with information for a Development section in the main article. Very little new about the characters that you can't get from a careful reading + freetalks. —Quasirandom (talk) 15:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Department of Stupid Achievements: oevr 100 references woo-hoo. And only ~90% of them are primary sources to the text itself. —Quasirandom (talk) 17:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * LOL, I noticed that yesterday and was both awed and amazed! You're doing an awesome job here! I hope I can do the same for Tokyo Mew Mew and look forward to seeing this one in FLC. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 17:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Five more character to go on this second pass, before I start sourcing to reviews. Five more! —Quasirandom (talk) 17:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Make that four, and Arisa's half-cleaned anyway. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Three to go. The three hardest, but -- three! —Quasirandom (talk) 15:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Two more, plus I need to finish two others. —Quasirandom (talk) 04:18, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

THERE. I need to go back and finish sourcing Rin, and I've a handful of bits with fact on 'em, but that's a pass. Onward to cannibalize reviews for sourcing. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Woot! Not a bad time considering how many you did! Awesome job! AnmaFinotera (talk) 03:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Page has gone from 38,911 to 90,051 bytes since I started this pass. And from 2 to 125 unique references (many used multiple times). —Quasirandom (talk) 04:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 30 of the 125 are not to the text as a primary source, but to author notes and interviews. —Quasirandom (talk) 04:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Sweet...with the last bit and probably a copyedit/peer review, it will be about ready for FLC :D AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm thinking once I go through the reviews and work out who doesn't pass WP:FICT, after the merges a peer review. It'd be cool to get a character list to FLC. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I'd love to get List of Tokyo Mew Mew characters there when I'm done with it, but unfortunately so little info is available it probably will be considered to not have enough real-world info to pass. :( AnmaFinotera (talk) 15:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

So starting on my next pass, I'm still tracking down reviews et cet, but I quickly and easily found more than enough matieral to demonstrate that Tohru Honda, Yuki Sohma, Kyo Sohma, and Shigure Sohma pass the notability guidelines. OTOH, while it's hard to prove a negative, it's looking like everyone else but Akito do not, and unless I uncover something startling in the next few days, I'm going to start a merge proposal for them. Akito Sohma, though, is a borderline case. I think, but cannot yet prove, there's a Selection effect going on here: he only gets significant development (beyond generalized villain) in the most recent volumes -- and for the more recent volumes reviews have a) gotten sparser and b) gotten shorter. There is however a fair amount of discussion of him-in-himself in reviews that hover around the edges of WP:RS. Given where the story goes in the volumes Tokyopop hasn't gotten to, I'm hesitant to try and merge Akito Sohma yet -- and, indeed, if I could find even one Australian/New Zealand/Singapore review that discusses him in more than passing, that'd clinch him as a keeper. So I'm going to hold off proposing a merge for now. One thing at a time is best, after all. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. I suspect you are right that Akito will get much more coverage as the final volumes come out here, and could become notable with those. AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * BTW, you think we're up to B class yet? I'm not really familiar with the grading scale for lists, to be honest, but if this were an article I'd say it was. —Quasirandom (talk) 21:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep I'd say so. For grading of lists, it seems to vary by project, and we seem to be falling down on our project with regards to the assessment department. We don't even have a central assessment page with project specific examples, however looking at our B class articles, I see some lists in there, so I've upped this one to B. :P AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I'm pretty pleased with the clean-up job I've done on Tohru Honda. The plot summary section could use another edit pass for out-of-universe language, but I'll wait a couple days for distance before I do that. Then, I think, a peer review to see it it's ready fo GAC. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:29, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Awesomeness! Good luck! Hope your GAC goes faster than my current one :P AnmaFinotera (talk) 16:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Here was an unexpected cleanup task: while taking care of double redirects, I found the orphan Fruits Basket: Volume 3 and boldly redirected it to the list of chapters. Took me aback, that one did. —Quasirandom (talk) 02:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Images
Annnnd here's a new issue to add to the cleanup list: pictures for just about all the individual character articles have been deleted for lacking a free-use rationale. Without notice on the pages, arg -- just on the images themselves, which of course no one but the uploader watches. Given the merges I'm planning, I'm not worried about most of them, but, well, Tohru Honda, Yuki Sohma, Kyo Sohma, and Shigure Sohma -- hello, need 'em. Is anyone up to recreating them? Either from manga color pics or anime screen caps, I'm thinking. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I can get anime screens of those four and any others you need, just let me know if there are any more. AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Just those for now, plus a group shot for the list of all, if you can get one. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Alrighty. I should be able to get those four tonight, the group might take a little more searching, but should be able to find something. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Coo. What I'd really like for the group shot is a color version of the chapter 66 title page (which has all 13 + Torhu + Akito), but I haven't had any luck finding a scan. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, it may take me a little longer to get the images. For some reason my screen capture is playing squish the images tonight, so I'll try tomorrow from the desktop. I'm starting to thing the best picture for Tohru might be the one from the disc insert from A Great Transformation (same cover as the individual release). BTW, any preference for head shots or full body? AnmaFinotera (talk) 02:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've no preference myself. Is there a standard? —Quasirandom (talk) 03:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've seen it both ways. The usual seems to just be to make sure its clear and, hopefully, a good representation of their personality. AnmaFinotera (talk) 03:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Personality and the art style, is what I look for. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, I don't know if you can recreate it, but the image for Kyo was particularly good. It was this image (the default one) only not as cropped. —Quasirandom (talk) 15:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That was actually the first one that came to mine for Kyo when I started looking! The only issue is that in the episode, Tohru's head is right over his right shoulder for the whole scene. :( AnmaFinotera (talk) 15:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Creative cropping! —Quasirandom (talk) 15:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, here are four I've got so far. Three of Tohru, one of Kyo. Image:Tohru Honda with Kyo Sohma (cat form), episode 26.jpg, Image:Tohru Honda, Clean DVD cover image 1.jpg, Image:Tohru Honda, NewType December 2001 edition B - Sanae Narazaki.jpg, and Image:Kyo Sohma, with cats, Episode 7.jpg. Let me know if any will work. Any that won't, I can just CSD. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Ooo, that Kyo one is tasty. That'll do as a replacement, I think. I can't say I'm thrilled with the Tohru shots; the first is at least representative of her character, though it does not give a good sense of her ordinary appearance. Lemme think about them overnight. —Quasirandom (talk) 05:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I wished it hadn't had the soft affect on it. The pose itself is a good representation of her character, particularly her reactions to the various cursed Sohmas. I tried to find a similar of her with Momiji, but they weren't as good (manga has an adorable one, but it was changed just enough in the anime to be useless). Oh, I'll check the Kisa intro episode. That one might have some good ones. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've plopped the first and last of those into Tohru and Kyo's articles, as at least acceptable placeholders. —Quasirandom (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Cool...I'll check for more images this weekend. It sucks that some of their best images are the ones in the manga, especially towards the middle. Oh, BTW, I just finished rereading the first 19 volumes (is it sad that I did it in like 3 days?). Yuki is called both Prince Yuki and Prince Charming at school :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 00:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, Takaya IS a good artist, better than most animators. (Feh. Inconsistant translators. It's always the "Prince Yuki Fan Club," tho', no?) —Quasirandom (talk) 01:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep, I think the Fan Club itself was always the Prince Yuki. Just Yuki himself that's referred to as Prince Charming at times :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh hey, if the series is fresh in your mind, I don't suppose you can remember enough to source any of the handful of [citation needed]s on the list? Most of them are something I remember seeing, but haven't tracked down where. —Quasirandom (talk)


 * Sure, I've added some, trying to follow the chapter method you used. Hope it helps :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Question: Would it fall inside the non-free media guidelines to include an image of the animal forms of Yuki, Kyo, and Shigure in their respective articles, in addition to the requisite main image? —Quasirandom (talk) 19:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, it should, since it is illustrating a very different form the characters. AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That's what I thought. *adds to TBD list* —Quasirandom (talk) 21:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The next merges
YanA suggested coordinating the next round of merges, if they go through, which is a good idea. When I edited the "List of" entries, I tried to summarize everything I saw as essential from the character articles, with the exception that I left information about the origin of zodiac names only in the articles. I'd kinda like to do the merging of the name information myself, as I know how I want to edit the references I added. Aside from that, I'm open on how to work. Possible a coordinated list here of "I'm working on this one now" as we go through and make sure everything essential really is covered (a so-called selective merge, in other words). —Quasirandom (talk) 14:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * By "name information" I assume you mean the parts that discuss the origins of the characters' names. Is that right?--YanA (talk) 18:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry -- am busy at the moment and coming through in snatches, which has degraded my intelligibility. Yeah, I meant the name origins. I'm thinking of copying those details into the List of this weekend, if it looks likely the merge proposal will pass. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. Anyway, yeah I think a list of "I'm working one this one right now," and then leaving it up to a person's initiative to pick an article to work on would work well. It might also be convenient to have a list of articles that have list of articles that have already been merged as we're working.--YanA (talk) 23:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * My MO when I did the last round of merges is, when I merged an article, removed it from the template at the top of the article. But for coordination, a list here where people can sign up which one they're working on now, possibly striking through the completed ones. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That sounds good.--YanA (talk) 04:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

It's a few days early, but I had a free couple hours for once and copied the name origins from the character pages. For the most part, it seems to fit at the end of each entry, though Ritsu needs editing for awkwardness. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's a list of of articles to be selectively merged -- sign up for what you're working on. As you work, for GDFL reasons, mention the page you're copying from in the edit summary. When you're done, don't forget to replace the page with #REDIRECT List of Fruits Basket characters and remove the source article from the mergefrom tag. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Arisa Uotani - last - done at last. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Saki Hanajima - next - wave bye. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Kagura Sohma - Yo - yo. —Quasirandom (talk) 23:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Momiji Sohma - next in line - that was quick —Quasirandom (talk) 02:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hatori Sohma - in progress done --YanA (talk) 06:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hatsuharu Sohma-in slow but steady progress. finished --YanA (talk) 01:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ayame Sohma - Gotcha. - stupid snake done. —Quasirandom (talk) 22:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Kisa Sohma - Mine mine mineity mine. - done done doneity done. —Quasirandom (talk) 22:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hiro Sohma - Mine. - done (needs a couple sources) —Quasirandom (talk) 19:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ritsu Sohma - Next. - done (already had almost everything essential). —Quasirandom (talk) 16:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Isuzu Sohma - Got it. - done. —Quasirandom (talk) 15:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Kureno Sohma - I got this. - done. —Quasirandom (talk) 15:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Navbox?
Now that the merges are, I think, complete, the next step is what to do with the navbox: keep it as an index to this list of characters or trim it down to just those characters with articles? —Quasirandom (talk) 19:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Sourcing and original research: an object lesson
I've removed the following statement from the Naohito Sakuragi blurb as unsourced original research: "He is determined to defeat Yuki at almost everything, much like Kyo Sohma, though he is less violent." It is good information -- it is even, at least the second half, patently true. Yet because no one in the manga, nor any reviewer I'm aware of, explicitly compares the two, it is original research -- an inference / conclusion that one can (easily) draw, and indeed should, because Takaya uses her large cast effectively, to create many pairs of parallel and contrasting characters. But to point this out directly, rather than sourcing it to a reliable source's pointing it out, is exactly Wikipedia's definition of original research that one should not include. If someone can find a reviewer or critic who compares Naohito and Kyo -- and please, someone do -- we can restore this. (Or at least the second half -- the first, well, while he claims to be a rival, he rarely tries to "defeat" Yuki. That bit, if restored, I'd challenge as requiring a secondary source as well.)

Presented, with your all indulgences, in hopes that the distinction will be useful. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Contrariwise, the "also" in "Yuki becomes attracted to Machi Kuragi, a student council secretary who also had a traumatic childhood" is legit, because (although it's not explicitly sourced) Yuki does explicitly think that they are similar in that regard. Some of the parallels are noticed by the characters. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * (Better yet, I found some reviews that highlight Yuki and Machi's similarity, and have added references to that effect. But my original point still stands) —Quasirandom (talk) 20:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Information about Ren
I don't have an English volume that has a freetalk where Takaya discusses Ren Sohma, which means I've nothing on the author's development of/attitude toward/inside info about the character. If someone with the Madman/Chuang Yi or Hakusensha editions can supply something, please do. Especially since the entry as it stands it pretty plotty -- trying to focus on events that demonstrate her personality, but still rather plotty. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The same goes for Tohru, Yuki, and Kyo, actually. —Quasirandom (talk) 04:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you have any idea which volumes its in? I'm gonna reread the series here pretty soon, so I can read and keep an eye out, but if you know volumes I can go ahead and pull/look (I have the Tokyopop editions though). AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope -- no idea. I've been combing the Tokyopop versions thoroughly for the others, but those four (along with Akito and Shigure, but there's other tidbits about them in the Cat Fanbook) aren't yet covered in a freetalk that's out in the States. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Ahhh...so must be in the last few volumes. :( Well, hopefully someone with them can give some answers. AnmaFinotera (talk) 15:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge Proposal II
The result, with one objection, was merge. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I propose merging the following articles into this list: Arisa Uotani, Saki Hanajima, Kagura Sohma, Momiji Sohma, Hatori Sohma, Hatsuharu Sohma, Ayame Sohma, Kisa Sohma, Hiro Sohma, Ritsu Sohma, Isuzu Sohma, and Kureno Sohma -- that is, everyone but Tohru, Yuki, Kyo, Shigure, and Akito. —Quasirandom (talk) 02:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Rationale
As they stand, these articles would not survive a deletion proposal: they do no contain enough (or even, any) independent, third-party citations that demonstrate the subjects meet the notability guidelines. After searching as widely as I could, I couldn't find any myself, even though I could for the five above (which I'm still in the process of adding--see Tohru Honda for an example). Many of these characters are important in the series, but as best I can tell, they have not been noted by reviewers in anything more than passing mentions -- and being noted is the Wikipedia definition of notability. Given there's a growing (if unorganized) movement to remove articles about fictional characters that don't meet the guidelines, it's only a matter of time before these will be found and nominated for deletion. I'd rather take care of them now, under controlled conditions, instead of the short time-frame of an AfD.

Now, my google fu is not perfect -- far from it. And frankly, the prospect of trying to condense the more complex of these characters, such as Momiji and Rin, into two paragraphs gives me the heebies. I struggled enough with simple ones like Ritsu. I love this series and I would love to be proven wrong. Thus a plea to everyone here: prove me wrong. Find multiple reliable sources that demonstrate the notability of any character, and I'll help with the editing, formatting, and citing, and change my opinion on merging that article. Keep in mind, that the standard usually used in AfDs is that "multiple" = "at least three".

Given the large number of articles in this proposal, I suggest that we extend this discussion from the standard 5–10 days to two weeks. Discuss the proposal in the next section, possibly including reliable independent citations to work with, and register your support or opposition in the sections below. —Quasirandom (talk) 02:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Discussion
To the comment "There are books that have info on all of them," if you mean other than the series itself, the two fan-books, and the character book, please show me. Per policy, those do not count as independent, third-party sources information that verifies the characters' notability -- we need reviewers, academics, anyone else, to comment on them. And so far, I've failed to find it for any but the main five characters. It may be that these "just need work," but if so, there needs to be material to work with. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Support

 * Clearly, since I proposed this, I support it, but for the record. —Quasirandom (talk) 02:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Much as I am a Hatori fan, I support all for the reasons already given and my earlier comments. Without the real world info, they all fail FICT and most real world reliably sourceable info concentrates on Tohru, Yuki, Kyo, Shigure and Akito. AnmaFinotera (talk) 02:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Support for reasons cited in rationale.--YanA (talk) 04:13, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * So, if this merge proposal goes forward, I'm willing to help with the merger - so let me know what I can do (I've been busy with school, but I'm be more than willing to help in my free time and if you don't mind someone who hasn't done any major editing it a while). I guess I could take the initiative and start working if the merging gets underway, but I think it would be good to have some coordination on this, especially given the number of articles.--YanA (talk) 04:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Any helping hands appreciated. But let's take this up to the clean-up discussion above, to avoid cluttering this. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

 * I think that if someone worked on them they could really look like good pages. There are books that have info on all of them.Smileyface 12 91 (talk) 18:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Citations needed
Right now there's three statements marked as needing citations, which I haven't been able to find sources for. I'm calling them out to give 'em some more attention:


 * Some members of the Sohma family describe Kureno as "broken-in". - This was a statement in his list-of entry but not his former article. I've checked the likely chapters, which means if true it's a passing remark.


 * Natsuki Takaya stated that she [Mayuko Shiraki] fits the image of a literature teacher. - Added by IIRC an anon a month or so ago, and while I vaguely remember something like this in a freetalk, I haven't located it.


 * [Motoko Minagawa] serves primarily as comic relief. - Hrm. This one's my fault. I thought it patently obvious when I added it, but despite my expectation I've yet to find a reviewer agreeing with me -- and since it's a statement requiring interpretation, without a cite it's original research as worded.

Anyone? —Quasirandom (talk) 23:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I got a citation for Mayuko; that freetalk was in volume ten. MayumiTsuji (talk) 23:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)MayumiTsuji


 * Oh yay. Thanks. I confess I glide over the "ultra special blah blah blahs," when looking for citations, since so often they're game-related chatter. —Quasirandom (talk) 23:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've deleted the other two -- well, for Minagawa, I commented that bit out. Over a year is long enough to find citations. For Kureno, yet another detailed read-through failed to find such a comment. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:52, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Which reference?
Is it worth converting the references to volume 20 from the Chuang Yi to Viz Tokyopop edition? Just for consistancy ... —Quasirandom (talk) 22:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've started doing this as part of swotting the references into better shape (the date formats also need updating to something human-readable). Among other things, the translations sometimes slightly differ in wording, and since the T-pop ones are the ones we're using (pending someone coming along with the Chuang Yi/Madhouse versions) we should note that accurately. —Quasirandom (talk) 18:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Tohru&Kyo?? Tohru&Yuki??
This "Love Triangle" Between Tohru and Yuki/Kyo is... Confusing... So, Which is more suitable For Tohru?? Kyo or Yuki??? :) I don'tknow who to choose, do you?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.252.120.156 (talk) 16:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I know who the author chose. Which is pretty much the only thing these articles should be talking about. (In the context of both boys and of the curse, it makes sense; whether it makes sense for Tohru though, I'm more abivalent.) —Quasirandom (talk) 22:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Listing Kyo's father as a character
should we list Kyo's father as a character. he's actions highlight Akito's change in attitude and he has about as much inportance as Ren who is included. he like Ren only appears in the Manga though and its just to say 'Kyo's a monster who should never have been born' in various ways. Tydoni (talk) 03:48, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * As you note, he's pretty much a one-note character, who only exists in interactions with Kyo. Everything that needs to be said about him (and, really, can be said) can be covered in Kyo's entry. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep Akira?
There's not much to said about Akira that isn't already covered in Akito and Ren's listing -- even in their flashbacks, he's not really present. (Of note, his face is rarely shown.) Certainly, there's not much to be said about his characterization, aside from "sickly and lonely". Should we keep him? —Quasirandom (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say no...he's a pretty minor character all things considered. Took me a minute to remember who he was :P -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 18:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Another strike: Akira doesn't even get an author's note, and Takaya even talks about those two nameless classmates. And each of the PriYuki Club members separately. That strongly implies not significant enough to deal with separately. —Quasirandom (talk) 21:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

References for voice actors
Do we have a good one we can use? Or multiple if need be, and likely given two languages. And no, ANN isn't reliable. —Quasirandom (talk) 21:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * My curiosity on this is, is a source really needed? I mean, we don't need a source saying X played Y in a film because the film itself is the source. I would think its the same here unless they have no credits? (I know its been brought up in several places of late, I'm just not getting why its become an issue?) -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 22:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall it as something required by the Featured Article/List reviewers. If not, then all the better. —Quasirandom (talk) 23:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)


 * For uncredited roles, I can see. But for credited roles, I find that incredibly anal. --Farix (Talk) 01:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * So possibly not the anime roles, but for the drama CD roles we should consider looking for it. —Quasirandom (talk) 03:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't the CD contain the credits? --Farix (Talk) 03:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Out-of-universe organization?
Noodling around with how one might reorganize the list by importance in the story, I'm not entirely convinced it can be done usefully. One idea I have is grouped thus:


 * 1) Main characters: Tohru, Yuki, Kyo, Shigure, Akito (Takaya's "main characters" + primary antagonist, insofar as Akito is one)
 * 2) Secondary characters: Arisa, Hanajima, Kyoko, the rest of the Sohmas but Ritsu, Manabe, Machi (those who directly affect the stories of the first five)
 * 3) Recurring characters: Katsuya, Ritsu, and the rest (those who don't directly affect the plot - for Ritsu, per Takaya's note)

Which does not strike me as particularly useful. Certainly, it's not a story that's readily described by protagonist(s)/antagonist(s). —Quasirandom (talk) 22:08, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I've mulled this over a few times before and got a headache trying to thing of a good solution. All I could come up with was Main characters and supporting characters, since, as you noted, there is no real antagonist beyond Akito. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 23:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * And describing Akito as "antagonist" is somewhere between misleading and a misprison of the term, depending on how you squint at it. So unless someone comes up with a reliable-source interpretation that gives us a schema of categorizing the characters, or another editor comes up with one that we can have consensus on, I think leave things as they are. (I note that the organization of the Sohmas has some out-of-universe organization -- Akito aside, the order in which they appear on covers. By that logic, the first section ought to be rearranged Tohru, Arisa, Hana, Tatsuya, Kyoko, and Manabe and Machi should be moved up to the start of the third. Something to consider.) —Quasirandom (talk) 02:05, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Missing link
Oh, look. Fruits-basket.com is gone. I don't suppose anyone saved a copy of the external link in the Wayback machine? (I'd look myself, but I'm firewalled against it.) —Quasirandom (talk) 20:46, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

This manga is based on Japanese zodiac.
Neither Japanese zodiac nor Chinese zodiac are the same. The concept extends to Japan and it has changed. Animal 'S kind is also different. The author is putting up not Chinese zodiac but Japanese zodiac in the base. (60.39.32.107 (talk) 17:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)).

"Alastair Rae" returned the part of the zodiac of Japan that I had corrected to the zodiac of China. It is insisted that this cartoon be based on not the zodiac of Japan but the zodiac of China. However, it is clear that it is not correct. (60.39.32.107 (talk) 17:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Let's take this to the main page for a single discussion instead of scattering it all over the place. —Quasirandom (talk) 19:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)