Talk:List of German Jews/Archive 1

Felix Klein

 * Was he Jewish? -Felix Klein --Sheynhertz-Unbayg 12:22, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Most likely not. He is very famous and yet there is no biographical reference alluding to his Jewishness (which would be especially noteworthy due to the so-called "Jewish mathematics" that was purged from Göttingen in the 30s). Tellingly, jinfo.org (which seems to thoroughly check offline as well as online sources) does not list him. Also, Klein is a common German name, not just a Jewish one, and his father was a "stern Prussian secretary" to the head of the Prussian government in 1849, which doesn't sound too likely for a Jew. Juko 00:18, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you! --210.128.247.147 10:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Schmidt, Gysi, Milch
As far as I know neither Helmut Schmidt nor Gregor Gysi consider themself jews. Gregor Gysi has only a jewish father, Schmidts father never practised jewish religion, Schmidt himself was an -officially "aryan" - officer in the german wehrmacht. From a NPOV we should respect wath these people think of themselves! beside this I miss contemporary Jews like Hugo Egon Balder, Ilja Richter, Hans Rosenthal, Henryk Broder, Michael Wolffsohn. (Rolf/Germany) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.167.172.250 (talk) 16:15, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Erhard Milch was also considered an "official aryan" in the Luftwaffe and he was Jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.141.214.87 (talk) 19:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Marcus was Austrian, not German. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.10.60.42 (talk) 18:54, 3 July 2005 (UTC)


 * He was born in Germany and moved to Vienna at the age of 21. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 21:55, 3 July 2005 (UTC) (talk • contribs) Udzu

I can't find evidence anywhere for Henry Heimlich being Jewish, so I'm adding an "unconfirmed" as there was before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.10.44.193 (talk) 06:33, 4 July 2005 (UTC)

Jewish? List
--210.128.247.147 10:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Edward Elias Lowinsky
 * Manfred Bukofzer


 * Klaus Heymann, founder of the Naxos —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheynhertz-Unbayg (talk • contribs) 10:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Jewish? In the List?
Jewish people: Please add to the List or answer me


 * Edzard Reuter, Ernst Reuter
 * Alfred Herrhausen
 * Josef Ackermann
 * Jacques Bemberg
 * Friedrich Wilhelm Raiffeisen
 * Engelhard (disambiguation) people
 * Louis Lewin
 * Else Ury (de:Else Ury)
 * Joseph Rubinstein
 * Heinrich Porges
 * Ludwig Darmstaedter (de:Ludwig Darmstaedter)
 * Jonas Fränkel
 * David ben Naphtali Fränkel
 * Boris Fraenkel (fr:Boris Fraenkel)
 * Ehrenberg people
 * Hans Ehrenberg de:Hans Ehrenberg
 * Hans Ehrenbaum-Degele
 * Richard Lewinsohn, de:Richard Lewinsohn
 * Eva Laubhardt (converted to christianity)
 * Robert Lee Morris
 * Markus Kavka (de:Markus Kavka) Jewish?
 * Georg Huth (Poland-born)
 * Viktor Hamburger (Poland-born)
 * Hans Hamburger (de:Hans Hamburger)
 * Julian Gumperz
 * Walter Kaufmann
 * Nikolaus Pevsner
 * Joseph Schacht
 * other Schacht people
 * Horace Kallen
 * Moshé Feldenkrais
 * Heinrich Jacoby
 * Franz Kaufmann de:Franz Kaufmann
 * Schalom Ben-Chorin de:Schalom Ben-Chorin
 * Moritz Heinrich Romberg
 * Goldschmidt people
 * Victor Mordechai Goldschmidt
 * Julius Frauenstädt, phisopher
 * Eliezer Löb, rabbi
 * Jacob Ettlinger, rabbi
 * Abraham Bing, rabbi
 * Azriel Hildesheimer, rabbi
 * Israel Isserlin, rabbi
 * Moritz Wilhelm August Breidenbach (christian)
 * Solomon Loeb
 * Emil Fackenheim, rabbi, philospher
 * Wilhelm Ebstein
 * Jules Oppert/Julius Oppert
 * Max Abraham (born on Danzig)
 * Eugene Kamenka, economist
 * Maximilian Harden, journalist
 * Leopold Wertheimer, "Constantin Brunner"
 * Lotte H. Eisner


 * Hans Conrad Leipelt
 * Felix Jacoby (de:Felix Jacoby)
 * Rudolf Eisler
 * Ruth Fischer

Mosse people
 * Felix Tikotin
 * Shelomo Dov Goitein
 * Philipp Veith (1793-1877), painter, converted to Catholic
 * Eduard Bendemann, painter
 * Jacob Emden
 * Ernst Jakob Oppert (1832-?)
 * Fanny Lewald
 * pedigrees of Oppenheim, Oppenheimer, Wertheim, Wertheimer, Friedländers
 * Shimon Schwab
 * Julius Guttmann, rabbi, Judaism religion philosophy historian
 * Jakob Guttmann(Jacob Guttmann), rabbi
 * Jacques Loeb (1859-1924)
 * Arthur Nussbaum
 * Rudolf Borchardt
 * Tietz
 * Leonhard Tietz
 * Hermann Tietz
 * Hermann Tietz (rabbi)
 * Ott Jud
 * Jud Lew
 * Richard Goldschmidt
 * Rudolf Goldschmidt
 * Isaac Wolfe Bernheim
 * Ernst Bernheim
 * Albert O. Hirschman
 * Stephan Hermlin(de:Stephan Hermlin), writer
 * Henry Koster
 * Julius Rodenberg (de:Julius Rodenberg)
 * Hans Mayer (de:Hans Mayer)
 * Siegfried Jacobsohn (de:Siegfried Jacobsohn)
 * Richard Lewinsohn (de:Richard Lewinsohn)
 * Jadassohns
 * Salomon Jadassohn
 * Joseph Jadassohn (Josef Jadassohn )
 * Pringsheim (de:Pringsheim)s
 * Curt Stern
 * Kurt Stern
 * Albert Mosse

removed people:
 * Peter Zadek (cf.Hilde Zadek)
 * Ernst Pringsheim
 * Joseph Jadassohn
 * Franz Weidenreich
 * Paul Dessau
 * Edmund Meisel
 * Dankmar Adler
 * Eva Hesse (not painter)


 * Geoffrey Hartman
 * Eduard Fraenkel (de:Eduard Fraenkel)
 * Hermann Fränkel (de:Hermann Fränkel)


 * Karl Wittgenstein
 * Franz Leopold Sonnenschein (Franz Sonnenschein, Franz L. Sonnenschein)
 * Sonnenschein
 * Maurice Block / de:Maurice Block


 * List of Ashkenazi Jews
 * Category:Jewish history stubs
 * Category:rabbis

Susannah Heschel Will Herberg Hugo Chanoch Fuchs Pinchas Lapide Friedrich Weinreb
 * from de:Liste_von_Theologen

Others

 * Wilhelm Filehne (born February 12, 1844, Posen - April 29, 1927, Bensheim/Bergstraße), pharmacologist, doctor (Mediziner),
 * Irene (Anna Maria Magdalena Gisela Gabriele) Forbes-Mosse, pseudonym: Gräfin Flemming (born August 5, 1864, Baden-Baden - December 26, 1946, Villeneuve/Genfer See), writer


 * Salomon Formstecher (born July 26/27?, 1808, Offenbach/Main - April 24, 1889 Offenbach/Main), Jewish theologian, philosopher
 * Aron Freimann (born August 5, 1871, Filehne, Provinz Posen - June 6, 1948, New York), historian, librarian (Bibliothekar), bibliographer
 * Jakob Freimann (born October 8, 1866, Kraków - December 23, 1937, Spindlermühle), Jewish theologian, writer
 * Meir Friedmann, known as Isch Shalom (born May 1, 1831, Kraszna, near Kassó/Kaschau - November 23, 1908, Vienna), Hungarian-born Jewish theologian
 * Naphtali Frankfurter (born February 13, 1810, Oberdorf, Württemberg - April 13, 1866, Hamburg), Jewish theologian


 * Ferdinand Frensdorff (born 17 June, 1833, Hannover - 31 May, 1931, Göttingen), jurist, historian
 * Salomon Frensdorff (born 24 February, 1803, Hamburg - 23 March, 1880 Hannover), Jewish theologian, educator (Pädagoge), Orientalist


 * Carl Ludwig Bernays, originally Lazarus Bernays (November 16(?), 1815, Mainz - June 22, 1876, St. Louis, Missouri, USA), journalist
 * Isaac ben Jacob Bernays/Isaac Bernays (November 27, 1792, Weisenau (now Mainz) - May 1, 1849, Hamburg), Jewish theologian
 * Jakob Bernays (September 11, 1824 Hamburg - May 26, 1881 Bonn), classical philologist (Klassischer Philologe), Judaist, philosophy historian (philosopheriehistoriker)
 * Michael Bernays (November 27, 1834, Hamburg - February 25, 1897, Karlsruhe), literary historian (Literaturhistoriker)
 * Paul (Isaak) Bernays (October 17, 1888, London, - September 18, 1977, Zürich), mathematician
 * Elsa Bernstein
 * Max Bernstein
 * Werner Bukofzer (Shimon Bukofzer; 1903-1985), German-Israeli actor


 * Emil Carlebach (July 10, 1914, Frankfurt/Main - April 9, 2001, Frankfurt/Main), journalist, writer
 * Ephraim Carlebach (March 12, 1879 - 1936, Eretz Israel), rabbi
 * Joseph Carlebach/Joseph Hirsch Carlebach (January 30, 1883 Lübeck - March 26, 1942, KZlager Jungfernhof bei Riga), rabbi, scholar, natural scientist (Naturwissenschaftler)


 * Friedrich (Ludwig Wilhelm) Darmstaedter (1883, Mannheim - 1957, Heidelberg), jurist
 * Ludwig Darmstaedter
 * Hermann Dessau
 * Adolf Dessauer
 * Alois Dessauer
 * Philipp Dessauer
 * Ludwig Dessoir (Leopold Dessauer; born at Posen)
 * Ferdinand Dessoir
 * Gutmann banker family
 * Olga Gutmann Benário Prestes (Jewish father)


 * Franz (Karl Abraham Samuel) Haymann (1874, Frankfurt/Main - 1947, Oxford), jurist


 * Heine and Geldern family
 * Gustav Heine von Geldern
 * Robert von Heine-Geldern
 * Simon von Geldern


 * Isaak (Yitzhak) Heinemann (1876, Frankfurt/Main - 1957, Jerusalem), Judaist
 * Benno Jaffé (1848-1923), chemist
 * Edgar Jaffé (1866, Hamburg - 1921, Ebenhausen), economist, politician
 * Franz Jaffé (1855, Berlin - 1937), architect, designer, painter
 * George Cecil Jaffé (1880, Moscow - 1965, Göppingen), physician
 * Max Jaffe (1841, Grünberg - 1911, Berlin), pharmacologist, biochemist, doctor
 * Max Jaffé (1845, Schwerin - 1939, Vienna), photographer, reproduction engineer
 * Philipp Jaffé (1819, Schwersenz bei Posen - 1870, Wittenberg), historian, philologeist
 * Theodor Julius Jaffe (1823, Berlin - 1898, Dresden), actor, director


 * Otto Jöhlinger (1883, Köln - 1924, Berlin), economist, publicist


 * David Kalisch
 * Ludwig Kalisch
 * Paul Kalisch
 * Salomon Kalischer


 * Max Julius Loewengard
 * Clara Mannes* (Clara Damrosch*) (born at Posen)


 * Oppert family
 * Ben-Zion Orgad


 * Philippson family
 * Ludwig Philippson
 * Alfred Philippson, geologist
 * Heinrich Porges (born at Austria)
 * Nathan Porges (born at Moravia)
 * Pringsheim family


 * Joseph Schacht, Arabist
 * Arthur Spanier (1889-1944), librarian
 * Moritz Spanier (1853-1938), Jewish theologian
 * Jeanette Wohl (de)

Christian people

 * Heinrich Heine
 * August Neander
 * Eduard Magnus (1799-1872), professor of arts, Berlin.
 * (then why Edith Stein, Pfefferkorn.. is in the list?)

Jewish?:

 * Siegfried Kurt Baschwitz Jewish
 * Josef Kohler/Joseph Kohler*
 * Eberhard Gothein de:Eberhard Gothein (cf.Goithein, Gotainer)*
 * Clara Zetkin
 * Elisabeth Beck-Gernsheim
 * Alfred Kerr, Judith Kerr
 * Richard Courant Jewish
 * Gustav Friedrich von Schönberg*
 * Hermann Burmeister*
 * Hermann Loew
 * Wilhelm Hasenclever* not Jewish
 * Oskar Maria Graf*
 * Morris Weitz*
 * Rudolf Wittkower
 * Bernhard Witkop*


 * Harry Lehmann (de:Harry Lehmann)*
 * Georg Jacoby (de:Georg Jacoby)
 * Günther Jacoby (de:Günther Jacoby)
 * Richard Krautheimer Jewish
 * Harald Kreutzberg*
 * Robert Blum
 * Georg Witkowski*
 * Michael Flürscheim*
 * Landsbergs
 * Blumenfelds
 * Bloomfields
 * Schnabels
 * Kantorowiczes
 * Franks
 * Brauns
 * Grosses
 * Harry Kahn (de:Harry Kahn)
 * Rudolf Mosse (de:Rudolf Mosse) Jewish
 * Hedwig Courths-Mahler
 * Hermann Aron Jewish
 * Edward Elias Lowinsky
 * Manfred Bukofzer Jewish
 * Klaus Heymann, founder of Naxos Records
 * Ernst Heymann
 * Paul Gerson Unna
 * Paul Frankl (1878-1962), art historian Jewish, catholic
 * Oscar Loew(Oskar Loew) (1844-1941)
 * Otto Gross (de:Otto Gross)
 * Paul Gordan (1837-1912) Jewish
 * Max Ettlinger
 * Selmar Aschheim —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cmaric (talk • contribs) 06:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Category:Jewish German history
 * Kategorie:Rabbiner
 * Kategorie:Person des Judentums


 * --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 10:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

from Jewish Encyclopedia

 * Philippson family
 * Alfred Philippson

Informations

 * interesting informations: http://www.buber-gesellschaft.de/buber.shtml


 * Freiburg: Mediziner Ernst Bloch (1847-1920), der Mediziner Max Landau (1886-1915), der Rechtshistoriker Otto Lenel (1849-1935), Fritz Pringsheim (1882-1967), der Staatsrechtler Heinrich Rosin (1855-1927), der Althistoriker Bernhard von Simson (1840-1915)

removed people

 * Alfred Brunswig - no sources on google: not on
 * Georg Misch - no sources on google: not on  (Japanese article says Jewish)
 * Fritz Heinemann - not on
 * Hermann Schwarz (philosopher) - no sources on google; not on

Schwarz

 * http://www4.geometry.net/detail/scientists/hellinger_ernst_page_no_3.html

Thaks. But, I know already "Jewish mathematician Hermann Schwarz"., but:
 * Hermann Amandus Schwarz (Amandus means almond, but is not the translated form from Mandel, Mendel, Mandelbaum)
 * Hermann Schwarz (philosopher), philosopher and mathematician


 * Which?? --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 11:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Please be more discerning regarding this list!
Much of this is very problematic for a number of reasons.

1) Judaism does not recognize a person as "half-Jewish" or "a quarter-Jewish." Either one is Jewish or one is not.  A person with a Jewish mother qualifies as "Jewish" according to Jewish law.  However, popular belief still attributes "Jewishness" to those with a single Jewish parent, mother or father.  This is not, in fact, correct practice.  Even more dubious is to call someone Jewish because of a single Jewish grandparent.  This practice eerily echos Nazi classification of who was and who was not Jewish.

2) Many of the individuals on this list would not count themselves as Jewish or would not acknowledge their Jewish heritage. Again, to brand them "ex post facto" or historically as "Jews" is reminscent of Nazi practice.

3) I have made a special note for Karl Marx. Marx was not Jewish in any religious sense.  He was baptised, and his family converted out of Judaism before he was born.  His writings evince a strong anti-Jewish sentiment.  However, popular belief considers Marx to be Jewish.  This is very tenuous.

4) I have also noted that Heinrich Heine converted to Christianity; however, throughout his life (and afterwards), he was considered "Jewish," especially by antisemites. Heine never denied his Jewish heritage and later regretted his conversion.

5) German politician Gregor Gysi is not Jewish. His father (Klaus) had a Jewish mother, which makes him Jewish by Jewish law; but Klaus was not a practicing Jew by any stretch of the imagination.  In "A Hole in the Heart of the World," Klaus clearly attributes his Nazi-era persecution to his communism and not to his Judaism (subjective as this may be).  Nonetheless, I have added Klaus Gysi to the list.

6) Helmut Schmidt is not Jewish. He had no connection to Jewish belief or culture, and only later in life did he discover that his (paternal) grandfather was Jewish.  As noted above, this would not qualify him as Jewish by Jewish standards, nor is he culturally Jewish.

7) Thomas Mann was definitely not Jewish.  He was baptized and confirmed in the Protestant Marienkirche in the city of Lübeck.  Popular belief has it that Mann's wife, Katia Pringsheim, was Jewish, but that, too, is not correct.  Katia's father, Alfred Pringsheim, was born Jewish, but he converted to Christianity.  Katia's mother, Hedwig Dohm, was Christian, though she also had a Jewish father and a Christian mother (Ernst Dohm and Hedwig Schleh).

I would IMPLORE contributors to this list -- German or not, Jewish or not -- not to use discredited measures of "Jewishness" in deciding to add someone to this list. Poldy Bloom 22:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Katia Pringsheim's mother was Gertrude Hedwig Anna Dohm (known as Hedwig), her father, Ernst Dohm, was baptised, so I am quite sure he is Christian and not Jewish (unless I am mistaken and Jews do practice baptism?), her mother, Marianne Adelaide Hedwig Dohm (previously Schleh, previously Schlesinger, previously Jeulich) (also known as Hedwig), had a Christian mother and Jewish father. bcatt 10:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC) Note: the elder Hedwig's Jewish father converted to Christianity some time after marrying her mother.

Eduard Heine. Jewish? He's not on jinfo.org nor any other site like that. A google search of the names "Eduard Heine" and "Heinrich Eduard Heine" with the word 'Jewish' reveals nothing. 68.212.177.192 04:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Who to consider Jewish or not
I think its important, especially on the German list, to include people who the Nazis would have considered Jewish, since many of them would have been persercuted as such. I'm not advocating that even everyone one this list who may have Jewish parent by included, but just those would lived at the relevent time in Germany to be considered Jewish by the Nazi government. Even someone wasn't fully Jewish or even practizing, many conservative Jews consider being Jewish both a race and a national. Jews were atleast a culturial unique group, seperate from the rest of their native countries, until the 1800s and even later in some places. Even people with only a Jewish parent have atleast a personal connection to Judaism even if they aren't practizing. Many would consider their Jewish heritage essential to themselves, even they aren't actually Jewish by faith. That's why i think its important to include people with only a jewish parent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.220.204.226 (talk) 05:35, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm really new to this topic, so I apologize if I haven't a clue what I'm talking about...but how about two, three, maybe four lists? People who practiced Judaism, People who would be considered Jewish by lineage but did not necessarily practice, Jews who converted to another religion or no religion (don't know if that ever actually happened or not), and non-Jews considered Jewish by Nazi germany. Just a thought. bcatt 00:39, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You may be on to something. I don't have any problem with practicing and non-practicing Jews in one list.  After all, Albert Einstein was certainly a German Jew, but he wasn't practicing.  Even those born Jewish and converted out of the faith should be on the list, with a parenthetical comment.  Heinrich Heine and Fritz Haber are examples.  But most Jews and most professional historians of German Jewry (including me) would be troubled by including people whose "connection" to Judaism was through a single grandparent, for example, or whose Jewish identity was essentially forced upon them after a break of several generations.


 * I know that this is a controversial topic and that Germans as well as (non-German) Jews have strong views on it. But in my opinion, it is both ahistorical and in poor taste to refer to someone as "a Jew" simply because one grandfather was Jewish or because that person was popularly considered Jewish.  German politician Klaus Gysi is an example. Poldy Bloom 02:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

It seems reasonable here to go by the Jewish qualification for being Jewish: having a Jewish mother or converting. 128.148.123.6 09:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Reach consensus before making changes
I have reverted changes by 72.144.198.190. I understand there's a disagreement as to who should or should not be on this list. Please build consensus before making changes, as is required by Wikipedia policy, see WP:CON. Thank you. -- Steve Hart 03:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Steve Hart. Observing the changes implemented, it can be seen that no names were removed from the previous version except politicians Helmut Schimdt and Theodor Heuss. Names of 1/4th Jewish heritage who do not practice Judaism do not belong in categories or lists of Jews per an unwritten rule that has been implemented in List of British Jews, among others, before. Furthermore it has recently been established that one cannot add or subtract names from a list without references or (in the case of subtraction) lack-of references. Otherwise, clean-up and organization can be implemented per WP:BOLD. If there is a dispute over the addition of substraction of a name, please revert to a version before the change in question rather than a whole-sale revert. Also, for future reference, when asking for a NPOV consensus, a moderator typically should revert to a version that was not edited by either of the users in the conflict. Thanks. 72.144.68.74 16:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

This is nonsense. A look at the diff will show a long list of names removed. It may be claimed that these names don't have to be here because they're in some other list, but why should people have to flick from list to list? The rule in List of British Jews was decided by a vote on that page and is not a general policy or even guideline applying elsewhere.--20.138.246.89 16:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussions are established as policy since Wikipedia does not enumerate policy - its a user-based discussion website where policies evolve from discussions. Also, linking to another page is not equivalent to removing names on a list. Is List of Jewish Americans a blank page? Do you suggest that we copy and paste all of the linked lists on List of East European Jews to List of East European Jews index page? Also, typically a consensus involves the discussion of two users whether or not that users "article reversion" is being presented. In other words, I don't feel that I need to revert the page to gain your attention in talk, so please don't do the same to me as you have been doing. 72.144.68.74 16:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has any nunber of policy pages. No unwritten rule is binding, and certainly a discussion on the talk page of one article is not binding policy for the rest of Wikipedia.  I do not agree with the deletion of the names of all these undoubted Jews, and I expect that others will agree with me.  If this list were as long as some of the other lists, there would be a case for say a separate list of German rabbis, but that is clearly not the case.--20.138.246.89 17:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The first occurence of this unwritten rule was most certainly not the talk page of List of British Jews, and it has been used unwittingly and wittingly by users for a long time. But besides that, there's another reason Schidmt cannot be listed here. This is a list of German Jews, not List of people with one Jewish grandparent so we need an established source that calls Schimdt himself Jewish. I would not expect Wolfgang Pauli to stay long on a list of Catholics just because he had one Catholic grandparent. Why do you feel that wikipedia must be redundant in its listing of people? Especially when whoever actually goes on wikipedia to look up a Jewish religious scholar or rabbi is more likely to go and look at List of rabbis or List of Jews in religion then try to guess at their nationality? We have indexes for a reason. Otherwise we could very simply squash all Eastern European Jewish lists in List of East European Jews. Would you want that too? 72.144.68.74 17:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Where has it been established that one cannot add names without references? Lists are no different from any other articles. Obviously, WP:V applies to all articles and anything in any article can be queried if it is not sourced, but it is absurd to say that nobody is allowed to make any addition to an article without a reference. --Brownlee


 * No it's not. You cannot add a name to a list of jews without a reference (or without it being established in the article) because it otherwise qualifies as that user's original research - which you are well versed with. Everything needs to qualified for WP:V. Also, a grand majority of lists have since implemented "<-- -->" notes for that very purporse. 72.144.68.74 18:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

"a moderator typically should revert to a version that was not edited by either of the users in the conflict"? But one party has been editing this list for months under a variety of IPs; how is anyone to know who's who? --Brownlee


 * I don't see how thats an excuse especially in this case. My IP doesn't change until I sign offline and the first numbers are always the same as with many dynamic IPs only a small range in the lower numbers changes. 72.144.68.74 18:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Can't both of you get user names? At least 20.138.246.89 is (I think) a stable IP. --Brownlee


 * I do have a username, as I've mentioned perhaps three times before, but have apparently been ignored. I have also explained why I can't edit from it. 72.144.68.74 18:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, we are not bound by unwritten rules. We quote sources; if there is a source that someone is Jewish, we say so; if it says his mother was jewish, we say so.--Brownlee


 * True, but we only say so in the article, and not on the list unless the list is for people with a "Jewish mother" except of course if the person practices Judaism or say they are Jewish. But you are under the impression that wikipedia is a vehicle to spread the theories of self-published sources (which you and many other users sometimes unwittingly use). This it is not per WP:Reliable source. 72.144.68.74 18:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Many lists and categories of Jews specifically say that they cover Jews and people of Jewish ancestry. Of course Wikipedia is redundant; it is not a paper encyclopaedia so has no reason not to be. People looking up a list of German Jews expect to see just that, not a list of German Jews other than actors or rabbis or scientists or anything else that there happens to be a separate list for. --Brownlee 17:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Many lists on wikipedia separate longer, tedious sections from others, especially when the sections are redundant or on another page. Why are Jewish lists so special that they can't do the same? 72.144.68.74 18:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * First off, on re-visting my original post I see I sound as I have some kind of special WP authority, which I do not. My apologies. Secondly, my understanding, and I believe it is evident from the discussion so far, is that there's a deeper disagreement about who should or should not qualify. Such disagreements should be sorted out on talk first (which was the point behind my original post). And I'm sure you have been through this in an earlier discussion, but that doesn't mean the issue cannot be revisited. As for the guidelines, I have a few comments (in a non-authority way):
 * Who can be considered as a reliable source is covered in WP:RS. Usually, forums, blogs, and partisan websites do not qualify (WP:RS discusses various sources, please have a look). It's recommended to have the information confirmed by a second source.
 * If you include people who are alive on the lists, you should be aware of WP:BLP . There's a different standard for living people which could apply here.
 * When that is said, if there can be no agreement, maybe someone should file a Request for comment. And I second Brownlee's comment, it's preferable that longtime editors have an account. -- Steve Hart 19:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

This article defines its scope in the introduction: "Note that the list includes people of Jewish faith, Ashkenazi culture, and/or Jewish ancestry." It does not say that it is a list of practising Jews, or even people who assert that they are Jewish.--Brownlee 12:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The question is not about what the heading of the list states. The question is about whether the scope outlined is appropriate. 128.148.123.6 10:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That makes no sense. Wikipedia can have an article about anything within reason. There is nothing to stop someone having an article on German Jews who are or were strictly orthodox if someone wants, but that is not this article.--Newport 19:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * On the contrary, this question makes a lot of sense. It is certainly possible to have a list of German Jews who are orthodox, for example, as well as other lists with different criteria for German Jews. The question is which list should the entry "German Jews" point to. 128.148.123.4 08:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It should point to this list; that is the consensus of editors. If there is any doubt about that, it is easy enough to ask for a vote.--Newport 19:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * A vote sounds more reasonable than a claim. Regardless, you have given no justification for your previous revert. We should resolve this on the Grothendieck page first. 128.148.123.43 22:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Cantor and Grothendieck
As discussed at length at Georg Cantor and Talk:Georg Cantor, there are several reputable sources, including some in his own lifetime, that say explicitly that Cantor was Jewish. It violates WP:NOR to deny this. As discussed at Talk:Alexander Grothendieck, his father was undoubtedly Jewish. The most reliable source says that his mother was too, but even if she was not, "the list includes people of Jewish faith, Ashkenazi culture, and/or Jewish ancestry" so he is clearly eligible. --Brownlee 16:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That he had Jewish ancestry is (I think) unquestioned; how much is debated. The strongest argument is that he himself wrote that his father's parents were "Israelites". But his father was a Lutheran, and his paternal grandmother may not have been a practicing Jew, so to say his father was a Jew raises the question of what "Jew" means. His mother was baptized Roman Catholic. (And he was not from Germany; he moved there at the age of 11.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Georg Cantor
There are plenty of good sources that Cantor was Jewish. Anon refers to the discussion on his talk page: this says
 * Evidently, he descended from Jews who had converted to Christianity ... If Jews are seen as a human tribal community related by descent, than he was a Jew of sorts. -Brownlee 13:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

That isn't a good way to qualify the term, because anyone can be traced back to the same ancestors if you go far enough. 128.148.123.6 09:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Paul Spiegel
I have added Paul Spiegel to the list under Writers, as this was his main occupation. He also was the leader of the leader of the Zentralrat der Juden. I hesitate to add him also as a politician, although the job is policical. Any ideas? Thorsten 23:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Hugo Egon Balder
Mother: jewish; father: catholic, exhaustive article on Balder family from Berlin newspaper Berliner Morgenpost: http://w3.berlin-friedenau.com/front_content.php?idcat=12&idart=642

There is also an interview with Balder in Swiss newspaper Weltwoche. http://www.weltwoche.ch/artikel/?AssetID=9045&CategoryID=62

Q (transl.): Are you religious? You are wearing the Star of David around your neck. A: No.

- 62.134.230.82 12:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * In fact, the quoted source says explicitly that Balder is Jewish: "Hugo Egons Mutter war Jüdin. Und weil nach jüdischem Gesetz jedes Kind einer Jüdin auch Jude ist, war Hugo Egon natürlich Jude, obwohl sein Vater Katholik war." "Hugo Egon's mother was a Jewess.  And since according to Jewish law each child of a Jewess is also Jewish, Hugo Egon was naturally Jewish, although his father was Catholic." Whether he is a religious Jew is irrelevant. - 20.138.246.89 09:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If you make a decision on the one definition from Who is a Jew? based on a Jewish mother, about 30 listed people with only a Jewish father have to be deleted though! - 62.134.234.207 10:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not making any decision. I'm merely noting what the source says - that he himself is Jewish, not just his mother. This source is one that you added, replacing another one that also said explicitly that he is Jewish. "The list includes people of Jewish faith, Ashkenazi culture, and/or Jewish ancestry", so it is right to include people with Jewish fathers, provided that they are flagged as such.--20.138.246.89 14:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Boris Becker
concerning those still extremely thin sources, the quote in the Tennis inside magazine is apparently that "his mother has a jewish background", not that she is jewish; that's what http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A4463 says. Text goes on: ''Ephraim Moxson of the Jewish Sports Review. "Becker's a crock. I don't think there's anything to that at all. It's like that Buffy Sainte-Marie song from the 60s where everyone claims to have Indian blood. Now everyone's claiming to have Jewish blood."'' -62.134.233.30 17:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What some blog says is not a good source. I have quoted exactly what the Jewish Chronicle, a British national newspaper over 150 years old, says in a front-page article, namely that Becker's mother is Jewish; that is clearly a good enough source for Wikipedia.  I have also added a reference to a published book that says he is half-Jewish.  In any case, as the Jewish Genealogical Society says that he has Jewish ancestry, he is clearly eligible for this list; the most that can be said is that possibly "Jewish mother" should be amended to "Jewish ancestry".--20.138.246.89 09:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It appears that each and every "source" relies on that 1999 interview in the Tennis inside magazine (because nobody quotes another original source they rely on). So it would indeed depend on the wording in that interview and not what anybody has made of it later. - 62.134.230.34 20:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Please provide explicit evidence that the other sources rely on the 1999 interview. If there is no such evidence, this is a violation of WP:NOR.  The Jewish Chronicle is usually considered a sufficient source under WP:RS. --Runcorn 22:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Suskinds
Does anyone have a source that Patrick Süskind and/or Wilhelm Emanuel Süskind were/are Jewish? I couldn't find one and it appears that the elder Suskind lived completely unmolested during WWII Germany, leading me to believe he wasn't Jewish. Mad Jack 20:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Deleted names
The following have been deleted. Are they Jewish/German/important?

Politicians

 * Max Jüdel [de]
 * Georg Bernhard Simson, member of the Reichstag [de]
 * These may be Jewish but almost nothing shows who they are or why they are important. Mehmeda 00:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There are links to articles on the German Wikipedia. What do they say?--Brownlee 14:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I read the articles, this is what they say:
 * Max Jüdel was an entrepreneur ,constructed and installed train signal systems. We would call it safety engineering now. His work doesn't seem to have any international implications, therefore it does not meet the required level of importance. Possibly, someone played a game of bad taste and inserted the link because Jüdel's name is close to the word Jude, german for Jew.
 * Georg Bernhard Simson was a prussian lawyer-turned-MP in the middle of the 19th century. He is of limited importance as well.
 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koskoci (talk • contribs) 00:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Social Scientists

 * Friedrich Pollock, economist & sociologist

Linguists

 * Chaim Menachem Rabin
 * This one is clearly Jewish but nothing could be found on who it is or how he is German. Mehmeda 00:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The article says he was born in Germany - any reason to suppose he wasn't?--Brownlee 14:35, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Showbusiness

 * Karl Grune, director

Musicians

 * Max Halper (1859 (?) - September 16, 1917, Berlin), singer
 * Till Lindemann, singer (German-Jewish mother)

Media
Gerhardt Löwenthal important right-wing TV personality Josef Joffe co-publisher of Die Zeit
 * --Newport 00:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Name of article
This name is in line with the great majority of similar lists, e.g. List of French Jews, List of Hungarian Jews, List of Austrian Jews. Russian Jews are an exceptional case because the list covers several countries. It should not be changed without a consensus of editors. --Newport 00:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Those don't need to be changed because there is only one type of Frenchperson, Austrian, or Hungarian person. But German could mean Swiss person, Austrian person, Luxembourgish person too. Russians is a special case and so is this. Mehmeda 00:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I oppose a name change. A German-speaking Jew might be from Austria, Switzerland or Czechoslovakia.  Equally, a French-speaking Jew might be from Switzerland, Belgium or elsewhere.  However, in normal English usage, a German Jew means a Jew from Germany, just as a French Jew means one from France.  If you argue that Germany has changed its boundaries over time, that is even more true for Poland and several other countries.--Brownlee 14:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Newport. --Epeefleche 23:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Is this a list of persons of Jewish ancestry?
I have removed Boris Becker and Georg Cantor. Is this a list of people who have Jewish ancestry/descent or people who identify as Jewish ect. I am trying to go by the subjects article and the sources provided there. Anyways --Tom 16:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It "is a list of some famous Jewish people (by religion or descent) from Germany proper." If you wish to start a list of strictly orthodox German Jews, please do so. --Simul8 16:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So Boris Becker is Jewish? --Tom 16:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Are there WP:RS that say Becker and Cantor are Jewish? Actually, Becker isn't. I believe he said he had some sort of distant Jewish ancestry, but his mother was left unmolested by the German occupation of her village, something that would be impossible if she was Jewish or had one Jewish parent. Cantor has inspired a grand and tragic debate that seems to solidify that one of the pleasures of Wikipedia is seeing a lot of time spent on nothing. Mad Jack 17:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey MadJack, yeah I sort of stumbled onto Cantor without knowing his history or the history in here. It goes to my question above. Did he have Jewish ancestry?? Could very well have. Does that make him Jewish? Does that mean he should be included here? Again, I wish that we could sit down with these individuals and get THEIR take on what they consider themselves ethnically to be rather than having debates about it and then attaching a label to them. Anyways, --Tom 20:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)