Talk:List of Germans

List of Musicians and Singers needs revision
This part of the list is of very poor quality. At the moment it is a random collection of names (pop and rock groups, singers, conductors, instrumentalists), some famous, some not known at all. Is Christian Wunderlich (actor and singer) so important that he should feature in the "top 100" of German musicians? What about Fritz Wunderlich instead? Suggestions: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.188.232.97 (talk • contribs)
 * divide list into sections: pop and rock groups, singers, conductors, instrumentalists
 * only list names of international importance
 * only list names if there is an articel in Wikipedia
 * I agree, there are names on the list that are at most a temporary local phenomenon with no national or international influence at all and it smells a bit like the put themselves on the list (an apparently popular form of vandalism/spam). Most germans probably don't know most of them for more than a lack of general knowledge.80.171.18.19 (talk) 14:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Moving the List of Germans to List of famous Germans?
I think List of Germans should be moved to List of famaous German. We don´t have to list anybody and if I take a look at the portugese, german and italian wikipedia article name we should really rename it. --ckorff 12:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, take a look at List of Swedes or List of Austrians - these are good models for a list of ... .Themanwithoutapast 20:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * So can random people in Germany add their name to the list? billybobfred 03:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

War crimes vs crimes against humanity
war criminal is insuficient for Adolf Hitler we are talking about crimes against humanity !

Linking
I suppose this needs to be linked to from one of the pages to do with Germany, but I don't know where (there are various pages listed at German) - does anybody know if there's a standard way of doing this? --Camembert

I've just added a link to List of famous Germans from Germany/Temp. -- Juan M. Gonzalez 02:34 Sep 8, 2002 (UTC)

Changing "Sportspersons" to "Athletes"?
Could we change "Sportspersons" to "Athletes"? -- Zoe
 * I prefer "sportsperson" (even though it is a bit ugly) because "athlete" has a specific use (and even in a more general sense, it suggests something which requires strength, speed or stamina, ie not golf...:) --Camembert
 * Not in my idiolect. Sportsperson isn't even a real word!  -- Zoe
 * To me, at least, "athlete" implies... well, athletics. Running, jumping, all that. But "sportsperson" implies... well, a person who does any sport! "Athlete" doesn't cover footballers or rugby players or whatever. Sven945 09:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Listing Hitler as war criminal pointless?
it seems pointless to list Hitler as a war criminal. Are we then going to list all the nazi leaders as war criminals? where will it end? the man was a dictator-that sums it up pretty clear

Unfortunately, whilst I'm sure many would like to do this, assuming "dictator" implies "war criminal" is considered biased (even though this may often be the case), so the two must, in the encylopaedic spirit, be considered mutually exclusive. Equally, we can't assume that everyone knows who Hitler was. 209.93.147.141 (talk) 17:20, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Anne Frank
I very much doubt whether Anne Frank is a famous german. In the Netherlands we see her as a dutch jewish person, but I am not aware of her formal nationality.
 * Well, her family was from Germany, where she was born. They moved to Holland when Anne was very young. Ethnically, she was German. --Gabbe 15:41 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)


 * ethnically?? The Frank family fled from Germany due to discrimination.

ethnically?? I would just write that she´s born here so listing her would be okay. --ckorff 12:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I totally agree with the above statement about Anne Frank. It is a bit rich to list her under famous Germans. Also if you want Germany to be considered to be a 'hip' modern country perhaps it is best to trim-down the very long list of Nazi's and Royalty!!Norwikian 10:44, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Why should accurate information be removed? Wouldn't it make more sense to add more non-Nazis and non-royalty, than to take out correct information? john 08:59, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * We're not here to advertise Germany, we're here to describe it. That's what Wikipedia is for. billybobfred 03:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Since Wikipedia concerns freedom of information, anyone who has any chance of being considered German should be listed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.147.141 (talk) 17:23, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Definition of German
It seems there are some issues about who qualifies as German. It seems clear that the article is about people of German nationality (as opposed to people of German language or people who lived in Germany); maybe we should explicitly say so.

Three sample cases that might cause confusion:
 * Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart -- should clearly be in the list. Unlike often assumed, he was not Austrian. Even if he had been, Austria still belonged to Germany at the time of his life.
 * Franz Schubert -- similar issue; he was Austrian, and Austria was a part of Germany when he was born, although not when he died.
 * Immanuel Kant -- generally regarded as German (he lived in a city where German was spoken and wrote in German), but actually the area where he lived did not belong to the Holy Roman Empire and he never even set foot into Germany. His nationality was Prussian; while Prussia later became a part of Germany, it was not during Kant's time.

I would propose: Let's be clear that we are talking about legal nationality. For people born between the 16th century and 1806: they are German if they have the nationality of a state of the Holy Roman Empire. For people born in 1871 and later: they are German if they have the nationality of the German Empire or the Federal Republic of Germany or the German Democratic Republic.

Problematic cases:
 * People who lived in the Holy Roman Empire before it became to be considered "German" (around the 16th century). We probably should distinguish between German, Italian, Bohemian, and other parts of the HRE and include only the German part.

--Chl 18:56, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * People who lived 1806-1871, when no "Germany" existed. Two possibilities: a) consider citizens of those countries that later joined the German Empire as "German"; b) consider citizens of territories that were members of the German Confederation as German. Austria would be the most important difference.

The only solution that would avoid any kind of NPOV would be to delete everyone before 1871. Martg76 14:20, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

The case of Adolf Hitler
Definition of German is much more difficult then you think. You forgot the the most terrible example: Hitler. The Austrians try to make him a German, but he was born in Austria, and he was grown up there to. Thats reason why i deleted him from your list. I think its not in the intrest of wikipedia to ignore this truth, even when its popular. Sorry for my poor english, but I'm (take a guess...) German.
 * Certainly, the crucial question is how to define Austrians and Germans. Nevertheless, in my opinion Hitler was both, Austrian and German. He was Austrian because, as you rightly pointed out, he was born and raised in Austria. He was German, because he got the German citizenship and was chancellor of Germany. This resembles in some way to Arnold Schwarzenegger who can be regarded as an American and as Austrian as well, since he was born and raised in Austria, but at the same time is an naturalized US-citizen and the governor of California. Nobody would erase Arnold Schwarzenegger from the list of famous US-Americans. Therefore I included Adolf Hitler in the article. Gugganij 22:51, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

The reason, however, is that people can become American. Other countries, however, are more genetically based, no? Or, at least in a birthright sense of the idea. You wouldn't call an immigrant to Japan Japanese, would you? Andyklus. (sorry for editing, 2nd time commenting.)

In the List?
please add to the list


 * Hugo von Trimberg
 * Süßkind von Trimberg
 * Michael Spindler
 * Max Wien
 * --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 16:45, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Christian Zeller (will add)
 * Otto von Guericke — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redmosquito86 (talk • contribs) 05:48, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that anyone who has his or her own article in the Wikipedia for a given language should be entered in the corresponding list of that Wikipedia ; and that it might be possible to find the missing ones with a bit of system software. 82.163.24.100 (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hitler was not German
Adolf Hitler was NOT German, I repeat, was not. He was born near Linz, Austria (Osterreich), and last time I checked, that was a separate nation in 1889, and remains to this day. He just considered himself German. Hitler should be removed from that list. Эрон Кинней 22:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)


 * He was naturalized and later became chancellor of Germany. Quite strong evidence, isn't it?. Gugganij 00:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Not really. His blood was Austrian, and naturalizing him as a citizen can't change it. Эйрон Кинни  (t) 11:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * So what you're saying is that it's the purity of the blood that counts? How ironic... --Corinthian 17:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * For sure that counts in this article! This article is about ETHNIC Germans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.94.186.41 (talk) 20:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

- So Austrians are not ethnic Germans - how laughable. 1. He was born in Braunau am Inn, which is situated at the border between the two political areas. 2. If Austrians are not Germans in larger terms, why don't they speak their own language like the Swiss (partly)? If the political argument counts, then there was no German citizen before 1871. Before we would have to talk about Prussians, Bavarians, Saxons only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.158.196.93 (talk) 08:45, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

German is a nationality based on a nation and an ethnicity. However Austrians consider themselves Austrian German. Brunswick gave citizenship to Hitler so he could take over the country and led millions of people to death. If you are Canadian and an anglo-Canadian this does not make you American even though you have a similar ethnic group! Case in point he was an infamous Austrian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.3.26 (talk) 03:20, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Hitler can be considered as a German
The decent of Austrians comes from Germanic tribes such as the Bavarians and Alemanni descendants of whom live in both Germany and Austria. I suppose if Hitler can't be considered German then there can't be anyone with a hyponated nationality i.e. Swedish-American. Informationguy

Jews are not German
The jews on this list of germans should be taken off. The jews already have a list on your website specifically for jews. The reason for this is that if there were not any germanic people there would not be a german people or germanyand the jews are not germanic, jews are a middle eastern people. Lets say hypothetically that if jews had come into northern europe and there were no other people there(neither celtic nor germanic) jews would not call the countries that they live in france,germany, england, or ireland they would call thema middle eastern name. Let's also say hypothetically that if all the germanic and celtic people were wiped of the face of the earth there is no way that jews would continue calling themselves french german english or white for that matter. The nationhood of those countries depend on the germanic and celtic people who had settled in those areas and fought to keep them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.42.24.8 (talk • contribs)
 * Jews is not a people. They are a religious group of multible ethnicities. 12:48, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Should be added: Ernst Mayr Johann gregor Mendel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.189.132.246 (talk • contribs)


 * Albert Einstein, Anne Frank, they were all ethnic German-Jews. Эйрон Кинни  (t) 11:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "Ethnic German-Jews"? Albert Einstein was ethnically an Ashkenazim Jew with a German passport. He wouldn't have, and in fact didn't, considered himself a German. Same with Anne Frank. She also wasn't ethnically German.
 * The same applies for Mendelssohn-Barthldy and G. Meyerber. That's why I removed them from the list. Bogorm (talk) 14:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "German" is a nationality. Everyone with a German passport is by definition German. The Nazis tried to come up with separate definitions in order to drive out or kill Jewish Germans whose families had lived in Germany for centuries. No idea what Einstein's feelings about his nationality were and if he developed them before or after the rise of Nazism to power. However, a lot of German Jews were very patriotic, fought in WW I, and so on. They certainly considered themselves German. Besides, with the logic of who came from where, lots of white, protestant or catholic Germans with roots in the Netherlands, France, Poland or any other of the neighboring countries would not be German. In fact, nobody would remain "German" if you go back far enough. We all come from some place in Africa, after all.--134.130.4.46 14:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * All protestants would be German, all catholics Italian, all buddhists Indian. All English people would actually be Germans (Celts, Angles, Saxons), or Scandinavians (Normans, Dutch). There won't be any Americans, since even the "Native" Americans came over from Asia. Almost all Eastern Europeans, including Hungarians and Finns would actually be Russians. The only true Europeans would be the Basks. Except that they also came from Africa... -- megA (talk) 22:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Anne Frank was not german. Where as Albert Einstein had a german passport and spoke German, he was definetly a german. Anne Frank was a citicen of the Netherlands and spoke Dutch. She should not be on the list of Germans but on the list of Dutch people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.215.64.116 (talk) 12:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree whole-heatedly with the subject of this post. I am German, but was not born there, nor have I ever visited. I am still self and openly regarded as part of the Volk because I am. To say otherwise would be offensive, just as it may offend a Jew born in Antarctica to tell him he is not a Jew. Simply living in a geographical location does not make you a native. Einstein could equally be regarded as an American and does not belong on this list. The same would go with the others. Lars2701 (talk) 15:49, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
 * well everyone who would say in modern day Germany in public that 'a Jew can not be a German' would be considered a nazi/anti-semitic hate-mongerer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.210.114.106 (talk) 18:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Sophie Scholl
Please strike out the entry of Sophie Scholl under the headline "Personalities of the Nazi Party and Regime"! she definetely is not a person of the Nazi Party and Regime! She died fighting against these criminals! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.251.206 (talk • contribs) 198.82.28.90

Inclusion of non-Nazi's in the Nazi list
I don't believe its fair to list men like Erwin Rommel under the Nazi headline. Was he a famous person in Germany during Hitler's reign? Yes. Was he a Nazi? No, and he gave his life proving that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.82.28.90 (talk • contribs)


 * I also don't think Rommel was a Nazi, but he didn't die to prove that. After the attempted coup on July 20th the Nazis asked him to either commit suicide or watch his family be killed. He chose his family and killed himself.--134.130.4.46 14:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The Porsche family
As there is no list criteria, does the list only cover Germans at birth only or also include German nationals as the older generation were not born in Germany, as I have included three names from the Porsche automobile corporation that is German, of the lot Ferry Porsche is a German citizen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Willirennen (talk • contribs)

Copernicus & Hevelius
The list of Poles contains "Mikolaj Kopernik" (since January 2003, shortly after that list was created), and many others like "Jan Heweliusz". As long as these claims are made, Nikolaus Kopernikus, Johannes Hevelius etc. deserve to be mentioned on the List of Germans, too. -- Matthead discuß!    O       19:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It would seem fair to list disputed people like Copernicus in both lists, yes. john k 20:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like to see modern sources that clearly state he was German. That would justify including him on this list. Balcer 20:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Due to recent edit warring at Johannes Hevelius (less so at Nicolaus Copernicus), both controversial figures were added under an extra "See also" section to Category:German astronomers and Category:Polish astronomers, to inform about the claims. I think they should be in neither of these categories themselves, or in both at once. Of course they are in the Category:17th century astronomers resp. Category:16th century astronomers. While the List of Germans does not show them, the List of Poles still features them with pictures and Polish naming (this is English Wikipedia, in case someone forgot). -- Matthead DisOuß   19:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The List_of_Polish_people continues to include these two German-speaking astronomers. They need to be re-added here, after having been removed by Polish edit-warriors in 2007. -- Matthead Discuß   15:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Two Essential Additions to the Military List
1. Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher (1742-1819).

2. Helmuth von Moltke (the Elder), 1800-91. Norvo (talk) 17:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Mozart is Austrian
Mozart is Austrian! Nobody in their right mind follows the silly historically based logic given for including him on this list. Salzburg was an independent country ruled by an archbishop at that time now it is a province in Austria. Austria claims Salzburg as Austrian history just like Bavaria is German history... Austria claims him and should. Germany today does not and should not. Nobody claims that all Austrians are really German or still German? Silly. I mean by that logic all Austrians born at the time when the nation was part of the German Bund are German. Austrian nationality is based on political history. They may be ethnic Germans but they have a different political and cultural history than Germany. Are the USA and Canada the same? no either. Can you tell me when Salzburg was part of the modern German Reich? This is wrong. Not real history. This site is looking awful silly if Mozart on this list. Sounds and smacks of nasty pan-German or neo-nazism too me. nonsense. total nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.3.26 (talk) 03:15, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The 2nd Republic of Austria is still the successor state to the Archdiocese of Salzburg. It is that simple. It has nothing to do with the modern state of Germany! Mozart was a Salzburger and that makes him Austrian by history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.13.92 (talk) 02:54, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the category Swabian people would also fit. His father came from Augsburg and was temporary engaged in Salzburg, where Wolfgang was born. But apart from this: He was neither a citizen of the modern Federal Republic of Germany nor of the modern Republic of Austria, but of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation, whose head was the Emperor in Vienna. German speaking inhabitants considered themselves Swabians, Bavarians, Austrians, Prussians etc, perhaps even in the first instance, but all considered themselves as Germans. One should not try to apply current imaginations to former times. --Henrig (talk) 17:47, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Nicolaus Copernicus
I have reverted an edit removing Copernicus. There should be discussion and consensus before a controversial removal such as this. There are enough sources out there arguing that Copernicus probably had German as a first language to at least make an arguable case for inclusion here. Because he is on the Polish list does not automatically exclude him here, Wikipedia has to deal with contradictory sources all the time, and often, the best thing for an encyclopedia to say is that the sources do not agree.  Sp in ni ng  Spark  16:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

This is not correct, and Copernicus should not be included here. Being on this list is crediting Germany, not Copernicus. The fact that he spoke German is irrelevant, and the mentioning that it was his first language is not accurate. If this were a list of German speaking perons, it would indeed be a list of millions. Copernicus was a Polish citizen and also of Polish ancestry. He spent just as much time in Italy as he did in Germany while studying, speaking, and educating, yet there is no reason to name him an Italian. Further, I doubt the Copernicus museum in Frombork or any other Pole would be thankful of him being listed here since Copernicus was extremely proud of his Polish heritage. Copernicus should be removed, and credited only as Polish which he indeed was. The assumption that someone should be included into a list of Germans only by association or language spoken is asinine. Sources: Nicholaus Copernicus Museum, Frombork, Poland. August 2012


 * First, don't believe uncritically patriotic sources. (And there are a lot of Polish patriotic sources.) Really, C's nationality is disputed since about two centuries. While his mother was an ethnic German, his father's exact background is largely a matter of speculation. It's known, that his father was a successfull merchant in the Hanseatic city of Krakow, where a strong German Hanseatic merchant community was established. As a secret of the Hanseatic League's success, the Hanseatic merchants supported each other and did hardly accept strangers, who hardly had a chance. (An entrance card into the network could be a marriage.) Between the various established Hanseatic families there was an interconnected network over the Hanseatic cities, which usually were ruled by it's leading families.) Copernicus' father, who apparantly was established in the network, moved to the predominantly German speaking Hanseatic city of Thorn. He married into a leading family and filled an official position there. (The cities officialese was German.) He fought against the Teutonic Order in a time, when the eastern Hanseatic cities allied with the Polish king. This was in no way a struggle between Poles and Germans, but a struggle of Germans and Poles against the TO. C., whose father died, when he was a boy, was a subject of the Polish king, but while there are no doubts, that he fluently spoke German, there is no single proof, that he spoke Polish. Theoretically Latin and German could be sufficient. (But it would be quite astonishing, if such a capacity not also spoke Polish. ) There is really no reason to list him as a Pole, but not as a German.Henrig (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

And why to not believe Polish sources? Because he was Polish? No other single user has posted any relevant information, content, or even a link with verifiable sources pointing to Copernicus being considered "German". So if one doesn't want to believe the sources of the country where he was born, resided, and died, perhaps we shall submit others just for satisfaction of a few outside sources. What shall we use? Let us go to the US, then, for starters. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy clearly lists him as a Pole with a dazzling trail of references listed. If you are against Stanfords research abilities, Encyclopedia Britannica also explains in detail that Copernicus was a Pole. We don't even need to take Britannica's word for it as there is a delightful book by the name of "Nicolaus Copernicus: Making the Earth a Planet" by Owen Gingerich and James MacLachlan which also clearly describes Copernicus as being a Pole. Did Copernicus travel to, and live for some time in Germany? Yes. He also traveled and lived for some time in Italy. But Copernicus was born in, was a citizen of, and died in Poland, his several residences and ties to the country all documented and verifiable. His school and University records are also verifiable, from several locations in Poland. Because he knew the German language and traveled there for periods of time does not make him German. It should NOT be allowed to list Copernicus here again until there is a verifiable resource proving otherwise, which I'm sure to say will not be found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihailovich (talk • contribs) 22:43, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems to me, that you know nothing. You can find masses of arguments in the voluminous talk archives of his article. Btw., the only nationality he did claim for himself was Prussian. Henrig (talk) 23:25, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

And it seems that no one is able to prove any way that Copernicus could possibly be listed as a German. Content must be verifiable. There has been no content provided except for those that show he was Polish. Why is he listed here? August, 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.191.241.244 (talk) 23:50, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, for instance, describes Copernicus as a "child of a German family [who] was a subject of the Polish crown". In the very large talk archives of his article you can find several times the history of the 200-year dispute. While in the first centuries he was described as a Prussian, a forgery (not by a Pole) claimed he was member of a Polish nation in Padua, which actually never existed. He was member of a German nation in Bologna. When Poland was divided this imagination was very welcome for the Polish pride and Poles claimed him for their nation. Poland until today makes advertisments in the world with C. as a Pole. Germany avoids such things. Therefore he is often regarded as a Pole. Although this is very doubtful, nobody deletes C. from the list of Poles. There is really no reason to delete him from the list of Germans.Henrig (talk) 00:18, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Inconsistencies, and biased. Look at the simple facts. Copernicus was born in Torun, Poland (you may argue that it was a different territory or only the Polish crown, but this has no relevance). His fathers family is quoted as being traced to German ancestry and decent, but no verifiable information is presented about his father being a German. Copernicus' mother however had very strong ties to many different Polish locations and families. Only this information alone should show that he is a Pole, not a German. Going further, his initial education was all completed in Poland, and not until after departing the University of Krakow at the age of 22 did he leave Poland. Without regurgitating the entire history of Copernicus, I only ask why is he listed here? There is no evidence to support this. To list one only because he spoke and wrote a language is preposterous. In that event, the United States, UK, Canada, and Australia would be able to claim each and every notable citizen of each others' who spent an inkling of time within their borders studying or presenting. This seems a personal matter of dispute between Poland and Germany for some ridiculous scuffle, and it is warping the verifiable information at hand. Copernicus may have been partially German by ancestry, but it makes him no more "German" than Vlad Tepes. I strongly suggest he be removed, and left as a Pole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.191.241.244 (talk) 00:57, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * In Poland? In the List of Poles, there are, as a matter of course, Polish people listed, which actually grew up in the Russian Empire! But anyway, C.'s home town was the autonomic Hanseatic city of Thorn in Royal Prussia, which in C's time was under the protection of the Polish crown, but not a part of Poland! It's another case, that the Polish kings on numerous occassions considered this different, when they tried to widen their authority and had to be remembered of the treaties. The kings could finally succeed in later times, after the political environment had changed and the cities widely had lost their strength. This long wrangling may be worth an own article. With the Union of Lublin RP became a part of the Pol.-Lit. Commonwealth.
 * Concerning C's mother Barbara Watzenrode, the daughter of the Hanseatic wholesaler Lukas Watzenrode and his wife Katharina, widowed Peckau, likely née Rüdiger: It's astonishing, that you claim a Polishness for C.'s mother and not his father as usual. Even Polish guides, who led German bus tourists through Torun and also use to emphasize „The great Polish astronomer C.“, tell them, that his father was a Pole and his mother a German. Really, we look at a time, where only parts are confirmed from this time, while quite a lot remained in fog and thus in later times, after C. had become famous, became a topic of speculation. Confirmed in C's time were a few German relatives, including a mayor of Danzig, because they were well-known in this time. Narurally, this doesn't exclude possible Polish relatives of Barbara Watzenrode's mother. But later claims of a certain relationship to a famous person in old days have often a bit of what in Swabian dialect is called „Gschmäckle“ (You're a bit unsure about the taste.) I would not claim C. exclusively as a German, but it simply would be wrong to emphasize him as a Pole and exclude him from this list.Henrig (talk) 21:30, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * What you are failing to realize is that none of this matters. I respect your input on the political and geographical history, but it has no relevance to C. No one has ever presented evidence to him being German, yet there is plenty from Poland which you throw away as being too "nationalistic" and therefore we shouldn't believe them. In reference to your tour guide, I'm quite surprised that you would bring up such a thing. A museum curator or librarian I can understand, but a tour guide? I hope that was a joke. Further, I am not concerned with people in a list of Poles, feel free to have your arguments with them all you like. I am only concerned that you are listing something here misleading. Written in English and in Polish, I have yet to find one textbook or encyclopedia which notes C. as being German. If you do find one, please present it, and I'll be happy to offer 8 others in response. In October of 2008 when disagreements arose regarding his name, "The Local", a German newspaper, still admittedly considered him a Pole. Yet you bring up these political and border disputes that have no effect on C.'s origin or nationality, which are quite different from ancestry. What you are arguing by involving his parents is that he is German simply by ancestry. So that means that anyone with German ancestry should be on this list. It would be in the MILLIONS! You are also arguing that because of these border disputes, anyone who was ever born in a territory that was owned, stolen, controlled, or ruled by another entity would be part of that entity. The Americans don't say for example that in the early 1800's, a person born in Oklahoma was born in the Louisiana Territory because it would be preposterous. They may say however, "John Doe, born 1805 in Oklahoma, then part of the Louisiana Territory". That is correct. How this is being handled is not. There are too many arguments here that are either personal, political, or geographical, but have nothing to do with C. What does it say at the bottom of this page? "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable." No evidence has been presented by a verifiable resource for C. being German, there is plenty for him being Polish. Your political and geographical disputes may be interesting, but have no bearing on C.'s nationality. Lastly, please think about what you are doing. Ask any high school, college student, or individual involved in Science from Australia to Brazil to the U.S. to England to Canada to Japan...who was Nicolaus Copernicus? Not one will answer that he was a German Astronomer. Find even one reference that says "Nicolaus Copernicus, a German astronomer...". Yet that is what you are claiming here. You are attempting to rewrite and mislead what has been true for ages only because you believe that the political disputes, border disputes, something about ancestry, and controlling a Wiki page give you some great power to do so. Think about this very carefully, and how misleading this is to the world. It is such a huge topic because it's wrong. People land at this page on accident (as I did) and shockingly see C. listed as a German. If I were German, I'm sure that I would try every trick in the book to keep him there. But I'm not, and I'm also not Polish, and there's no reason to list him as a German because he wasn't, and there is no evidence to prove otherwise. You are misleading everyone who sees this, and it's not right.Mihailovich 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * From what is known from C's owm time, I see much more reasons to list him here than in the list of Poles. As main argument from those old documents I would consider C.'s recognition, to be a subject of the Polish king, as he has written in a Latin language letter to the king, which has survived. A main argument today is, that sources like Enzycl. Britannica list him as a Pole. This argument reminds me a bit of Mozart, a famus person from from a younger time, where nothing is in fog. Austria makes advertisements with him. This is her good right, especially with M.'s native town, the Austrian city of Salzburg. But one consequence of this is, that throughout the world, Mozart is considered as an Austrian and numerous sources, including Britannica therefore describe him as an Austrian composer. Being an Austrian in these former times, alone wouldn't exclude to call him a German as well, because Austria formerly consisted of many different ethnicities. German speaking people were considered as (ethnic) Germans, Polish speaking people as (ethnic) Poles etc. Therefore, in the list of Poles we naturally can also find people, who had grewn up in the Austrian Empire. But obviously there may be a few Austrian officials, who are rather weak in history. I remember, that one of them had protested against M.'s nomination as one of the candiates in the 2003 German television survey Unsere Besten (Our Best). Nothing against Austria's advertisements with Mozart Every city, where he lived for some time (- including my town of birth, where he lived for some months -) has the right, to make advertisements with him. But really, he actually even wasn't an Austrian in his time, but only a German. His native town Salzburg became only later, during the Napoleonic area, a part of Austria. Furthermore, Mozart's survived letters, where he called Germany his „beloved fatherland“, were now and then markedly German patriotic. Mozart's example shows, how even not massive and in no way nationalistic advertisements can impress the common picture in the world and influence sources like Enzyc. Britannica. Concering Copernicus: May he be listed in the List of Poles. But there is enough confirmed material, which clearly suggests and justifies, to list him in this list as well! Btw., when C.'s bones were exhumed in Frombork a few years ago, people could read, that for a comparison of the DNA, there were no living descendants of the family detectable. They simply missed a search in Germany or Austria. (Unthinkable in Poland?) There are in fact descendants of the Watzenrode family living, who by the Danzig churchbooks - they have survived - quite authentically can prove their family tree back until the 16th century. Henrig (talk) 21:52, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I still don't agree. The problem here is that you are refuting all sources which list him as a Pole, including encyclopedias and Polish information which you say "shouldn't be trusted", and you yourself are presenting no documented verifiable evidence that proves otherwise. You just wrote nearly an entire article on Mozart, but I have no concern, argue with whomever you like about him. Calling Copernicus German when you have presented nothing to support this except your words and opinion is outrageous, incorrect, misleading, and not within good practices. I ask again...where are your verifiable sources? I'll be quite happy to list mine.


 * Henrig, this is something that has repeatedly come up, and is likely to do so again in the future. I think it would be a good idea to open an RfC on the question.  The discussion and result could then be pointed to in hidden text in the article as the consensus view.  Spinning  Spark  18:00, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with RFCs. Do you have a wording for the RFC in mind?Henrig (talk) 15:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The instructions are at Requests for comment. The wording should be short, simple, neutral and direct.  Something like "Should Nicolaus Copernicus be included in List of Germans?"  You are welcome to add your opinions and arguments, but this should be in a separate paragraph afterwards.  Spinning  Spark  17:47, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Frankly, when seeing above such wrong arguments like "Copernicus was a Polish citizen" and "Copernicus was extremely proud of his Polish heritage", I'm afraid, there are a lot of wrong imaginations in the world. It seems to me, that such things also depend on the bigger lobby. I'm not sure. Henrig (talk) 20:25, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

There should be a section of German Inventors
German inventions, from the thermometer, to telephone (yes), to car, to the first rocket in space, to the mp3, have no doubt impacted humanity significantly. There should be a separate section, and not just have some of them lumped in with "others". Lars2701 (talk) 16:09, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In some fashion, I agree, there should be a heading ... whether it is scientists, inventors, or something other.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Inappropriate Defintions of German
Some of the comments above are intensely legalistic and, to cap it all, apply the wrong laws or inappropriate laws. Since the first half of the C19, the key decider of a person's legal nationality in many German states, including Prussia and Bavaria, has been the father's nationality, if known, otherwise the mother's. Rigidly applying the American criterion of place of birth produces anomalies and absurdities.

Using the criterion of 'born or not born in the Holy Roman Empire' produces absurdities galore: for example, Mozart was born within the HRE and so was Jan Hus but they are generally regarded as Austrian and Czech respectively ... At this rate poor Kant is going get classed as a Russian philosopher! Attention needs to be paid to whether or not Germans generally regard the individuals concerned as German. Anthing else will produce nonsense. Norvo (talk) 17:30, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

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