Talk:List of Gotham episodes

Jerome is the Joker
There are multiple sources that confirm it, such as The Christian Post, Daily Mirror and The Huffington Post: "The trailer also briefly shows Cameron Monaghan's Jerome "Joker" who appears to be in an incarceration facility."

"While the teaser didn't explicitly name the Joker, it did say that the new villain was "no joke" before cutting to a quick glimpse of Cameron Monaghan ("Shameless," "The Giver"), called Jerome on the show, maniacally smiling and laughing."

"Jerome embraces his Joker alter-ego"

--Rose (talk) 14:46, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This has already been discussed on the main page. Alex &#124; The &#124; Whovian  16:07, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Damned If You Do...
As per the promotional videos on Gotham's YouTube, official Facebook posts and iTunes, the episode's name is Damned If You Do (without the suspension points [...]). Should we check it out to change it need be? — Artmanha (talk) 02:48, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would suggest so, if that is what all of the primary sources are calling it. Darkknight2149 (talk) 03:21, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Why was the name changed, adding the suspension points? Are there sources confirming it like that? Thanks — Artmanha (talk) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Never mind, just checked it. Thanks — Artmanha (talk) 21:02, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Removal of OR wikilinkage and references
I've removed several of the wikilinking of the characters in the series with their comic book counterparts. Some, likeGordon, Thompkin, and Cobblepot have all been fairly heavily referenced in the main article (and a previous discussion found a reference for Jonathan Crane, so I've simply tagged that as needing the relevant citation). We cannot Sherlock these connections in, as we editors are not reliable sources.

And before anyone pitches a fit over how obvious it is that these characters are their comic book counterparts, recall the Sionis was killed in this episode, long before any Black Hand personae could have been established. If you disagree with this reasoning, its probably best to raise that concern at the main article page. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:46, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Most of the characters you unlinked are already cited on the List of Gotham characters article. You are correct about Richard Sionis. Had I known that link was there, I would've unlinked it myself.
 * Also keep in mind that this is an adaptation, so if a character has the exact same name, personality and/or backstory as a character from the comics, then it's pretty safe to link that character (UNLESS the name is generic; hypothetical examples of this include James Smith, John Doe, Hans Gruber, Jane Doe, ETC). Darkknight2149 (talk) 22:00, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You might want to look at that article a lot more closely. Very few of the characters are actually cited. I also disagree (mightily) with your contention that your perception can determine whether a character's similarities allow us to Sherlock a connection between the two. Finding a reference for these connections from a reliable source accomplishes two tasks simultaneously. First, it removes us as the source of the connection. Secondly, it establishes the relative importance of the connection, No connection clearly points out that the connection isn't important at this time. And the point of the Sionis information was that the showrunners are playing fast and loose with the comic book canon. Things aren't going to play out the way they do in the comics. If nothing else, that in itself is good enough reason to rely less on our deductive reasoning and more on actual reliable references drawing those conclusions.
 * I have removed these connections yet again. If you can provide references for each addition, you can add back in only those that can be references to reliable sources, and not and not fancruft sourcing. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:03, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * When was the last time you looked at List of Gotham characters? Most of the characters you unlinked (Amygdala, Tigress, Dollmaker, Copperhead, ETC) are indeed reliably sourced. As a matter fact, some are backed by SEVERAL reliable sources.


 * And you neglect that this is an adaptation. Yes, Richard Sionis is not Black Mask but he also doesn't even exists in the comic books. Roman Sionis exists in the comics and if a child named Roman Sionis appears in the series, then there is no reason we can't link him to Black Mask unless the showrunners state that he isn't the comics character of the same name. There is no Sherlocking to it. There is no need for a reliable source that Roman Sionis is Roman Sionis because if he wasn't Roman Sionis, then the series wouldn't have called him Roman Sionis, now would it? Adaptations don't just feature random characters named after comic characters for no reason, unless that name is generic.


 * And while it is very perceptive of you to point out that the series is not religiously following the source material, changing a character's backstory doesn't suddenly make them a different character. For example, the series killed off Sal Maroni last season. In the comics, Sal Maroni is very much alive when Bruce becomes Batman. Does that mean Sal Maroni suddenly isn't Sal Maroni? Absolutely not. The same goes for (for example) the Joker in 2008's The Dark Knight. Heath Ledger's portrayal of the character is vastly different from his comic incarnation. Does that suddenly mean The Joker in the film isn't the character from the comics and can't be linked to Joker (comics)? I think not.


 * And I am unsure why you deleted the bit about Viper being a prototype of Venom, considering the episode explicitly stated that Viper is a Venom prototype. No one came up with that with their own deductive reasoning. Are we going to pretend like the episode itself is presenting us with original research? Darkknight2149 (talk) 22:41, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Tl;dr: are they cited within this article? If not, and such sources, as you suggest exist, add them. If they aren't added to the article by say, Sunday (GMT-6), I'll again remove any wikilinkage to their comic counterparts. We do not get to reason out who gets wikilinked and who doesn't. We follow the sources, period. Again, by Sunday, please. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:44, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * If you insist, then fine. I'll add the citations when I have time (which should be before sunday). As for the topic of same name characters from the comics, I will be taking this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics sometime in the days to come. This little back and forth can go on forever and can apply to pretty much any article about comic adaptations. We need more opinions for a solid, definitive consensus. Darkknight2149 (talk) 21:59, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I have copied and pasted the citations from List of Gotham characters that supposedly don't exist to this article for many of the characters. As for same name characters (who have the same personality as their comic counterpart), we aren't reasoning anything. This is an adaptation, the connections are already implied. If they weren't the character from the comics, then they wouldn't have the same name, personality traits and a similar background as their counterparts. It is ridiculous that we are even having this debate. We only need a citation to prove that that these characters that are exactly like their counterpart are NOT the same from the comic, unless their name is generic. You also haven't addressed any of the points I have made in this discussion, and are refusing to even consider any point of view other than your own. But, as previously mentioned, I will be taking this topic elsewhere. Darkknight2149 (talk) 13:57, 2 October 2015 (UTC) And while you preach that "We do not get to reason out who gets wikilinked and who doesn't," that is exactly what you yourself are doing. You have this stance with articles related to Gotham (TV series), yet you don't with other comic related articles like List of Arrow episodes because (in your own words) "the connections being made here are a good deal more tenuous here than they (for the most part) were there." How is that so? Because the series takes more liberties with the source material? Taking liberties with timeline doesn't completely turn characters into someone else. Darkknight2149 (talk) 14:18, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Your position that we need a citation to prove that they aren't the characters from the comics is absurd; we do not prove a negative. You find citable evidence from reliable sources that they are the same or it doesn't go in. Period. The fact that you seem to STILL believe the opposite is true suggests you might want to pause a beat and actually read our policy as to when and why we reference material.
 * It is reminiscent of the joke where a man stands on a busy street corner in New York City,, swinging a pink chair around and around in the air. When asked why he is doing it, he states that he is doing it to keep elephants away. When informed that there aren't any elephants indigenous to NYC, the man beams proudly, "See? Its working!"
 * Additionally, I'd point out that I am not "preaching" anything; this is Wikipedia governing policy. If a series takes liberties with the source material, we need to have citable proof that they do, Additionally, we need references for who is connected to the series from the comics. You are not allowed to connect the dots and Sherlock them into the article. Ask around. You'll get the same answer elsewhere. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Lastly, if you feel I am neglecting to address your points, it might be that they are originating from a false premise. I don't have the time to address questions that originate from an incorrect assumption. Sorry. If you feel that this is an unfair characterization, prove me wrong and list them below. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:58, 4 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I would point out that I've only looked over a single section and note that every single one of the references you added for Amigdala are incorrect. None of them identify Helzinger as the comic character. Please check your sources, instead of cut and pasting. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:06, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Season 2 subtitles in individual episode titles
Until now, it has made sense to exclude the "Rise of the Villains" title from the titles of the individual episodes in the second season. But the poster for the second half of the season has just been released, revealing a new subtitle, "Wrath of the Villains". The question is, should the "Rise" and "Wrath" titles now be included in the names of the episodes respectively in the first and second halves, or should the sentence before the episode table be changed from
 * The second season is subtitled Rise of the Villains and is scheduled to resume on February 29, 2016.

to something like
 * The second season is subtitled Rise of the Villains for the first eleven episodes and Wrath of the Villains for the remaining episodes. It is scheduled to resume on February 29, 2016. Dave Lars (talk) 01:13, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Changing the sentence should be fine, per the second indented paragraph. Alex&#124;The&#124;Whovian ? 02:33, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Rise and Wrath
We sure that Wrath isn't a 3rd season? What if s1 was 22 eps and s2 was 11 eps? Also My PVR is showing the title of monday's upcoming as "Wrath of the Villains: Mr. Freeze" so tedious as it is should we include the title for each episode or does the header suffice as implying it is listed for all of them and we only use the unique portion of the title?

I ask because even in the case of repetition List of Friends episodes still repeats "the one" every single time, with only the first/last not following that format. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 16:10, 28 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I understand the confusion, but yes, it's a certainty that Wrath is part of Season 2. The episode that aired in December was just the Winter finale, not the season finale. And you are correct that the headers are meant to imply that all listed are either Rise or Wrath. DarkKnight2149 19:36, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

IP Users blanking Episode 44 in Season 2
How come IP users like User:67.232.206.99, User:75.130.213.218, User:50.248.229.58, and User:194.75.0.248 keep blanking the episode 44 table entry in season 2? --MorbidEntree (talk) 20:51, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Episode summaries
At present, some of the episode summaries cover the start, but not the end, of the episode in question, which can lead to some strange results. For example, the summary of season 2, ep. 21 starts : 'Selina begs to be Bridgit's servant'; as what has led up to this is not covered in the summary for ep. 20, the statement would be unintelligible to anyone who had not seen that episode (in which case they wouldn't need a summary anyway). Similarly, the summary for ep. 22 begins: 'Basil, disguised as Gordon', which would lead the reader to wonder just who Basil (unmentioned in the summary for ep. 21) is. I recognise that the summaries cannot cover everything, but they should surely be intelligible in their own right to anyone who has not actually watched the episodes. What do others think? Chronarch (talk) 19:17, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Splitting
At this point, the episode summaries are way too long to fit all on one page. There needs to be separate season pages. 2601:8C:4001:DCB9:70B2:33FA:2A7A:E1D6 (talk) 03:19, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:SPLIT; three seasons is barely enough to split, many episode article have more than double that number with the summaries still on the page. Season articles are not just for episode summaries either, they need a premise, development information, development, casting, ratings information, critical response, etc. If you want to work on this, you are more than welcome to do so in the draft space. --  Alex TW 03:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

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Separate Season Pages
I would like to re-open the idea to split up the season pages. This article is over 100K bytes and there is so much information in the episode summaries. Comparing to "List of The Simpsons episodes", even though that is only seasons 21 through 28, that article is over only 30K bytes. I feel as if the previous request was not taken seriously, so I think these reasons may suffice for a split. 2601:8C:4001:DCB9:4C67:276E:19E3:C6D2 (talk) 17:22, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
 * If you have enough information concerning production, such as filming, casting, development, etc., and more season-specific material, you are more than welcome to develop these articles. They do not exist just to split the episode tables to and nothing more, they need to be well fleshed-out articles in their own right. --  Alex TW 23:17, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Season 4 page?
I suggest beginning to create the article for the season 4 page. New information is getting released and I'm certain it will continue for the following months. Right now, we can have the basic information as it's not released yet but new interviews and talks with the cast and crew are giving us more information. And with the course of the season, we will get more information, more than enough to justify its existence. Universe1609 16:39, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * See the section above, . If we don't have enough information to create articles for completed seasons, I very highly doubt that we'd have enough to create an article for a season that hasn't even premiered yet. --  Alex TW 23:44, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I have some sources on a document that could detail the early stages for the season. I noticed another show, Sleepy Hollow' having separate season pages, yet Gotham has bigger information details for each season. We can even put that more information is set to be added as the season goes on. Universe1609 19:05, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Best to start drafts at Draft:Gotham (season 1), Draft:Gotham (season 2), Draft:Gotham (season 3) and Draft:Gotham (season 4), then. --  Alex TW 02:26, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, so can I do the season pages on these drafts and then we can all discuss if it remains a full article? Universe1609 19:47, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Like Draft:Arrow (season 3), for example; it's a season article that's being developed in the draft namespace. Just remember, in the draftspace, there's no images or categories added to articles. --  Alex TW 02:50, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, I did the draft page, can you check about it and see if it can be moved to the official season 4 page? Universe1609 22:15, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * There's WP:NORUSH, especially given that the season hasn't even premiered yet, and articles don't exist for the previous seasons yet. Wait for more information to be available before requested for it to be moved to the mainspace. See Draft:Arrow_(season_3) - that was created in August/September last year and isn't even a proper article yet. --  Alex TW 07:18, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

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Season 5
However, that episode will act as the ninth of the season. The series finale (episode 12) will be written by John Stephens. The episode that McKenzie wrote was the episode that Erin Richards directed:. --  Alex TW 12:06, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Episode summaries
Add the episode summaries back. What a joker that guy was.HairlessCat (talk) 00:24, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The episode summaries are available in the season articles. -- / Alex /21  00:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Titles
Could we add the (sub)titles given to the seasons, as has been done on other television series such as Westworld, Infinity Train, American Horror Story, American Crime Story, and Star Wars: The Clone Wars? 51.171.113.150 (talk) 13:11, 25 July 2020 (UTC)