Talk:List of Halo characters/Spartan merge

=Spartan II=

Plagiarism
After reading through the list of deceased Spartans, it seems at least some of the descriptions were taken directly from the Halo novels. The Berzerk Dragon 05:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I only own one Halo novel, hence I won't be efficiently able to cite the descriptions. Someone more versed in Wikicoding than myself should take it upon themselves to cite the descriptions. As a matter of fact, this article could use citations, period. Amalga 04:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Not only the list, at least a huge part of the article seems like copy-pasted. For example this phrase "Specific risk for pre- and near-pubescent adolescents: skeletal growth spurts may cause irreparable bone pulverization. See attached case studies.".--ometzit&lt;col&gt; 22:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This bit of text appears in The Fall of Reach. What is here is pretty much a verbose copy of the list of augmentations as it appears in the book. Not good. 172.192.171.92 23:11, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps somebody who owns the corresponding novels could revise these portions? Amalga 15:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Living Spartans
I looked at the list of living Spartans and added three more: Maria, Nicole, and Cassandra. Maria was in The Halo Graphic Novel, Nicole is in Dead or Alive 4, and Cassandra from the Conversations From The Universe. From what I can conclude from the information I have is that the wounded Spartan from the "FoR" is Cassandra. --King Chocobo 04:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)King Chocobo

I have a question: you didn't look at the Spartan roster link on the main article, did you? Kidcorona 06:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * ==Nicole==
 * Nicole is seen only in the Dead or Alive universe, doesn't that mean she is not a canon Halo character?
 * Maybe we can differentiate between her and canon Halo characters?
 * I'm removing the section on Nicole as it is not HALO canon and hence not a true element of the 'SPARTAN-II' Project.Roswell Crash Survivor 11:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Cassandra was @ the slipspace battle and was crippled. (in FS, citation needed) 24.107.103.220 17:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, she wasn't. She isn't even mentioned in First Strike. Peptuck 17:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Clones?
I've read the HALO (PC) manual and it calls the Spartans Cyborgs not clones.-- Anonymous 5:29 pm (CST), Sept. 4, 2006

What about it? They're cyborgs, at least technically, their suits are cyberneticaly linked to their nervous system to allow for a quicker reaction time. But, they were cloned, the SPARTAN project was a covert/shadow operation, meaning that they kidnapped the Spartans when they were 8-10 years old and replaced them with a flash clone, which is unstable on a scale as large as a whole human and the clones died a few years later from what appeared to be natural causes. Kidcorona 06:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The Spartans, themselves, are not clones. They were replaced by clones after they were kidnapped from their families. The clones served to eliminate the risk of their families discovering that the actual Spartan children had been kidnapped. End of story.

Also, the neural implants they received certainly makes them cyborgs. Alexander 07:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Joshua/Vinh
The Spartan roster said that Vinh is 030, that means that it's confirmed and it's not a rumor about his number. Right? Kidcorona 06:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed it to reflect that. Razer of Chaos 01:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Vinh was listed in Halo: First Strike as SPARTAN-029, much like Joshua. With the possibility of a typo, ONE of them is either 028, 030, or 018. The novels do have some considerable grammar/spelling errors, so it may have been overlooked. Or it may simply be a continuity error. Amalga 04:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

History
correct me if I'm wrong, but the Spartans Were NOT created to "fight an inhuman species" as I recall from the "Fall of Reach" the spartans "Were created for the purpose of stopping a civil war that would tear the Human race to pieces". If you are wondering that's why I edited that line out

mike

It is said in TfoR that the Spartans were originally used as what you said above. The Spartan II's (John) are more Spec Ops than riot police. They infiltrate and destroy (Col. Watts?). After the Covenant came in, the Spartans were used for their original purpose until Reach got glassed. After that, John was just used as heavy infantry (kill Grunts in a few seconds) and infiltration ("Infiltrate the map room, find the Control Room and exfil.").

Spartan III's
Shouldn't they have an article or this one should be amended to include them. Kidcorona 07:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

So they do have their own article. Ignore my previous statement.Kidcorona 10:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalizing
Somebody has vandalized the list of Living spartans. I have fixed John-117 but I cannot list the others. Excel038 01:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

A user by the name of Ddahc needs to be banned permenently. He continues to edit this wiki article with false information. Durandal-217

Spartan I
So there is a Spartan II and a Spartan III program wouldn't it seem to follow, or precede as it may be, that there would have to be a Spartan I program?


 * There was, It was called PROJECT ORION and it took place in 2491. the first SPARTANS were deployed In order to deal with increasing civil turmoil.

There was also the SPARTAN-1.0 program, they were in the process of training the 1.0 soldiers, however the program was canceled shortly after in favor of the IIs. Durandal-217 3, December 2006 4:43 AM EST.


 * Is that from Onyx?


 * No. ORION was mentioned in the Flood and the HGN, and started in 2491. However it was not cancelled; the project was very sucessful, which was why the S-II program started in 2517. Peptuck 08:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The Spartan I's are the Greek Spartans from ancient Greece.


 * -slaps forehead-. No. They. Were. Not. The S-Is were Project ORION, for heaven's sakes. Where in all the shiny multiclored cotton candy heavens are people getting the idea that the S-Is were the Greek Spartans, especially as The Flood states outright that the S-Is were part of Project ORION in 2491? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peptuck (talk • contribs) 05:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Is there info on Project Orion? 132.205.44.5 04:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Kurt
Why does Kurt have a separate entry for when he was Kurt Ambrose? Kidcorona 20:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Because as a SPARTAN-051, Kurt was presumed dead (MIA). He was reinstated as a military personnel under a different identity, and was finally killed. So by the military's records, Kurt had died two separate deaths--one as SPARTAN-051, and the second as Kurt Ambrose. Amalga 04:41, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

But he didn't die the first time, even if it was just an accident, he would have been MIA, not KIA.Kidcorona 09:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The same could probably be said for some MIA SPARTAN-IIs as well. However, the military records say he was killed, even though the incident was staged. SPARTAN-051's "death" is the end of the Kurt-051 character. Kurt Ambrose was the finally killed later on. He doesn't really die twice, but the two separate roles he played were killed off in two different events. Amalga 20:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Delineation of Canon
I think it would be greatly helpful in this as in all articles like it if the actual information from the game manuals and video games themselves be listed first; and all information added into the story from novels, comics and other non-primary sources be put in afterward, and labeled accordingly.
 * Why? While Bungie did admit that the games override the novels in terms of what's "really" canon, that doesn't mean that they need to be seperated. I don't see G-canon material being seperated from other working canon in Star Wars articles. Peptuck 08:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Nicole
I know that she isn't canon, but does Nicole get mentioned along with John's "graduating class"? Kidcorona 09:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Genetic?
The opening line seems a little misleading:

"Created by the United Nations Space Command (UNSC), its purpose was to create an army of genetically and cybernetically-enhanced supersoldiers that could face any foreseeable military challenge without the need for large-scale military action"

The Spartans were not really genetically enhanced as that implies the Spartan candidates were genetically modified before birth which was not the case - up until six years old they lived a normal life however they were chosen for the Spartan program as they were determined to be the best by genetic markers. At 13 years old they were chemically enhanced with a series of risky drugs, then eventually given their armour. Johnmcl7 01:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Corrected. Peptuck 02:19, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Grey Team
"Three unidentified Spartans designated "Gray Team" were too far away from Reach to be recalled before it was attacked, though it's possible that they have either died or are still missing in deep space as they haven't contacted command for over a year" All the Spartan-IIs were recalled to Reach to recieve the MJOLNIR armor Mark V, not when Reach was attacked MIL AI 2340
 * And? That segment is making reference to surviving Spartans, and whether they were present or not at Reach when the massacre took place is pretty relevant to whether they were alive or not. Peptuck 01:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits
I simplified Grace's descriptions down to "Demolitions specialist; killed by a Brute's high-velocity grenade. Spartan-117 (Master Chief) then detonated her armor, in an attempt to prevent the Covenant from getting the MJOLNIR technology." From the previous plagiarized and awkward description. Also, I removed the part about James dying of oxygen deprivation, since starvation is possible, depending on how large his air tank is, or if he has a rebreather.Kidcorona 02:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC) =Spartan III=

rename
I have renamed "Spartan-IIIs" to "SPARTAN-III Project," as the SPARTAN-II Project is named before it. "Spartan-IIIs" reads to informal for an encyclopedic entry. Also I have a cropped picture of the SPI armor from the cover of "Ghosts of Onyx," message me if it's appropriate to put it up and that it doesn't violate any copyrights. --Conquistador48

Someone has edited in a picute of an S-III in SPI armour; without a copryright tag. Please take this down, or put up a tag. --Conquitador48

Idea...
great article, but I have an Idea.... I was trying to start an article on the SPI Armor, but while I know much of the armor, I am not a writer in any sense of the word... so someone who reads this article, who either, knows more than I do, and/or is good at writing wiki articles, should start an article, for instance a title could be: SPI Armor. just a thought, but otherwise, nice work on this article people... and as I note, I think it would be appropriate to post the picture, but you should probably ask um, one of 4 people, 1: Eric Nylund, 2: Tom Doherty Associates (www.tor.com (publishers)) 3: Bungie (bungie.net) 4: Microsoft... (microsoft.com) althought the last two are one in the same :S... --EkimNosredna

It would be best to ask Microsoft, since it is their property. Kidcorona 22:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

MA5K Assault Rifle
Not sure if it would belong here, but wouldn't it be understandable to believe that the MA5K Rifle, and possibly any other weapon given to the SPARTAN-III's, have the ability to camouflage much the same way the armor can? Otherwise, it would be tactically odd to see a gun simply floating there.Razer of Chaos 19:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The weapons would have to be modified with photo-reactive plates that are on the SPI Armor, or an equivalent technology, and a power source for said camouflaging system. Kidcorona 23:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Spartan III Beta Company survivors
There are several more Beta company survivors than what you listed. As several of them were captured and assumed missing when they ventured into the secret facility on Onyx.

No, Beta company's op was on Pegasi Delta, unless you mean Gamma company, in that case find and cite proof of their abduction. Kidcorona 02:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Confused...
I don't think Katana should be listed as Active Duty. They are in suspended animation. WIA, KIA or MIA don't hit the mark either. Is there anything else?

But they're still alive, which rules out KIA, and in one piece, which rules out WIA. Also, they're with their squad, so not MIA, and all that is left is Active Duty. Sign your comments with four ~. Kidcorona 07:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Armor in Halo 3?
Is there any true confirmation that the SPI armor appearance will be used in Halo 3's multiplayer. The E.V.A. Armor does share a similar helmet as the SPI Armor, but it really is a different style of the MJOLNIR armor used in the game. The trivia comment should at most say that an armor variant resembling the SPI Armor will make an appearance in Halo 3's multiplayer. But again, I could be wrong and missed the info saying it was the SPI Armor. Razer of Chaos 18:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Bungie has made some fancy names up for the new armour (EVA and CVG[?]), but yes it does look like the SPI. Added to this some people have reported seeing more than one Spartan in the E3 trailer, but none of this is confirmed. Bronzey 02:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It is worth noting, though, that though we have no confirmation, the likelihood of the EVA and SPI armor being the same (or at least, canonically similar) is very high. Remember that the SPARTAN-IIIs were developed after Halo 2, and they were produced by the hundreds. But as always, it's best to wait for official confirmation. Amalga 03:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Scratch that. If you view this article and this site you'll see that the SPI armor and EVA Variants are not the same, after all. Amalga 03:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Spartan I
Is there any info on the Spartan I project? 132.205.44.5 04:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC) =MJOLNIR=

Condensation + renaming
Since there's a move to delete the MJOLNIR MARK VI page, and this page could use some padding, I'd like to put up a suggestion to condense the Mark 5 and Mark 6 page into a single page and rename it MJOLNIR battle armor. --YoungFreud 21:04, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * The merge seems to have happened already, but I supprot the renaming - it would make much better article title than the current "MJOLNIR MARK". --Malyctenar 13:35, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I think it should be kept here. --Ævar Arnfjörð [ Bjarmason] 13:50, 2005 Jan 13 (UTC)


 * Uh, why? The current title is just weird. I gather that MJOLNIR is all-capitals because the game uses it so, and I could see even MJOLNIR MARK V/VI though the common capitalization is "Mk"; but if the number is gone then the "MARK" is pointless: after the merge, this is now an entry about the MJOLNIR series of battle armor which has models Mk/MARK V and VI. --Malyctenar 12:56, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * MJOLNIR perhaps with the article beginning somewhat like this: The MJOLNIR series of battle armors... ? –Ævar Arnfjörð [ Bjarmason] 22:53, 2005 Jan 14 (UTC)


 * Well, MJOLNIR battle armor seems a more suitably descriptive title to me, and helps prevent confusion with plain lower-case Mjolnir (which seems to lack the backlink from its Games sction; you might want to add one - I both don't have the time right now and got to this entry just by a chance, after one Halo midnight marathon :-) --Malyctenar 13:09, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Well as far as I'm aware that's against naming conventions, a battle armor is *what* it is, while MJOLNIR MARK (I|II|III|IV|V|VI) is its name (e.g. we don't put Jupiter (planet) on The planet Jupiter). –Ævar Arnfjörð [ Bjarmason] 14:59, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)


 * Good point, but... I'm not fully aware of the naming conventions (and I suppose this is too minor a point to waste much time on learning their details and trying to find out how exactly they would apply in this case), but I don't think it is as strict: just a brief look at the complete list of articles around "Mj" gives titles like Mizarai crater, Mizithra cheese, Mjølnir crater, Mk-48 torpedo, Mk 19 grenade launcher etc. Of course, even these may be wrong titles.
 * Or what about MJOLNIR series? As I was saying, "Mk" without a number is pointless. Oh, and can you verify whether the canonical materials really use all-uppercase "MK"? (Ideally in the novels, the games may just have all-caps font). I think that I've seen just "Mk" on some articles in Category:Halo. --Malyctenar 10:33, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, i agree that having just Mk without a number is pointless, the page should be moved, I'm just in favor of moving it to MJOLNIR rather than MJOLNIR battle armor to avoid the needless disambiguation.
 * However I have not read the novels and it could very well be that the name is not fully capitalised in its proper form, would anyone who has care to comment? –Ævar Arnfjörð [ Bjarmason] 21:42, 2005 Jan 18 (UTC)

Capitalization and other notes
Some notes regarding how various terms are used in the novels: Aapo Laitinen 21:32, 2005 Apr 1 (UTC)
 * SPARTAN II is the name of the augmentation project
 * Spartan is a soldier produced by the project, except in the back cover, where it's written SPARTAN
 * Master Chief is referred to as Number 117, Trainee 117 (before augmentation), Spartan-117 and Spartan 117
 * MJOLNIR project is the name of the armor project
 * MJOLNIR is the name of the armor, sometimes further qualified as combat armor, assault armor, suit etc.
 * Many military terms are all-caps, for example: HAVOK, FLEETCOM, SATCOM
 * Others are not, might be nicknames, for example: Longsword (interceptor space fighter), Archer (space missile), Pelican
 * Then there are some strange ones, for example NavSpecWep

Pronunciation
Does anyone know how to pronounce MJOLNIR? and can you back it up so its not just a guess? i prefer to say "jol-nir" just because it sounds good, but i know thats not coorrect. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.24.249.44 (talk &bull; contribs).
 * It's named after Thor's hammer. suggests "myol-nir" (not sure how to write that in IPA). — TKD::Talk 23:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's pronounced Mi-yol-nir (Can't type it out very accurately)Delta Elite 01:35, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The J in Mjolnir is silent. It is pronounced just like it sounds, without the J. Like it is spelled Molnir. The word Mjolnir is Norse, after Thor's Hammer. It is meant to add to the Spartan, to be symbolic of adding an extra hammer to his/her arsenal. The Spartan's do not need their armor, but it adds to and enhances them, just like a pistol or baton adds to a Policeman. The armor is not the weapon, the person inside is the weapon, the armor is an extenstion of that weapon. Quite obviously, the armor can do NOTHING without someone in it.

MJOLNIR Mark VII?
Is the Master Chief wearing a Mark VII (or a newer Mark VI)? Because there are differences between the Mark VI and his armour in Halo 3. His hand armour, helmet and feet armour are different to that of the Mark VI. Not sure if this has been discussed. Sorry if it has. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ras29 (talk • contribs) 03:09, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

Cleanup
I just stomped through the whole article with a chainsaw and cleare dout a whole mes sof inaccurate and completely made up information. let me know if I missed anything or deleted legitimite information. Peptuck 20:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I noticed that you, or someone else, got rid of the Mark VII. Is it because it's not cited? Could we just stick 'citation needed' on it? --Ras29 04:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There is neither citation nor canonical backing for the "Mark VII" armor. I've never seen it called that by any reputable source, so we're better off just sticking a note within the Mark VI section. Peptuck 05:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the Mark VII and anything else that hasnt been written or happened yet is up to the public untill otherwise stated for instance im working on some ideas that the mark VII is a batlle armour similer to the previous mark I in size just so it can hold a substantually larger battery for the simple fact I'm thinking of a new weapon which expells energy similer to the force field but backwords from contact creating a sort of Powerfist if located on the arm of the armour. Bulk is the new strenght.

unconvinced this article should exist
This is an example of an article that discusses a fictional piece of technology in the context of it's impact in the real world. This article as it currently stands is purely for fanboys and is entirely unsuitable for a wikipedia article.

Does material exist to turn this article into a suitable article for wikipedia or are we all off to AFD? --Fredrick day 12:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

OK - working on the assumption that it's possible to clean up the article - the armour featured in the game should be under a section "Armour featured in the game", armour mentioned else where should be in a section called "Armour mentioned in other media.

Do we have any information that would populate a real-world impact section? --Fredrick day 17:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

How the fuck is it unsuitable? Why delete the information from the novels? It's freaking canon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.85.234.166 (talk • contribs)


 * Because Wikipedia is a tertiary source, and shouldn't be just re-telling fiction in painstaking detail. See also What Wikipedia is not and Manual of Style (writing about fiction). — TKD::Talk 12:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Still not convinced. Oh, if there are problems with articles like MJOLNIR armor, why not delete these:[], [], [] if TKD just plugs the "Not an indiscriminate collection of information" card on me.

Thanks for pointing those out to me - I'll get started on slashing them down when I have a chance, the first one certainly looks dodgy. --Fredrick day 13:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I said it rhetorically. Why is it suddenly a big deal to someone like Fred when those articles aren't considered a problem for the other admins in the past?

That's a problematical argument to make for a number of reasons - the main reason that's it not been a problem in the past is that, due to the size of wikipedia, nobody got around to it. That's not a convinicing reason not to bring the article upto wikipedia standards. --Fredrick day 13:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * As far MJOLNIR is concerned, I can see the article istelf getting rolled into the general UNSC article. The Halo articles in general could use a little bit of condensation, I think. Peptuck 16:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Was the list of variations on the Mjolnir armor plagerized, or was there some other reason for it being removed entirely? Forar 18:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Not entirely certain. I'm thinking mjolnirarmor.com took Wikipedia's content,a nd not the other way around, but I have no way to verify that at this point. Peptuck 20:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

My thoughts: Delete this article, and on the disambiguation for Mjolnir, link to the relevant Wikia [sic] article. Ong elvin 04:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Replica Armor Mentioned Twice
For some reason it appears the Replica Armor section has been copied at the bottom of the article, so I'm removing it. It seems to be a copy-paste of the one above, but without the code included. - Forar (note to self; register with Wikipedia)

Marathon?
The MJOLNIR in Marathon was something entirely different. 86.153.73.48 20:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * And? they are both MJOLNIR armor suits used in Bungie games. Peptuck 02:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Missing info?
Is it just me, or has someone deleted Mark I - Mark III and also deleted a lot of info from Mark V and Mark VI?

There used to be heaps of info, now there's not much...--60.228.167.87 06:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone cleared it out, citing Wikipedia's fictional materials policies or some such. Its been moved to the United Nations Space Command article instead. If you want to challenge it you can revert it to the earlier, more expanded versions. Peptuck 06:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

And then have a revert war? em no.. if you want to expand it, you need to indicate the real-world impact of those fictional devices, just reverting it is not the way to go. By slashing the article, it was saved from AFD - if people just add all that old fan-cruft, it's likely it will head off to AFD. --Fredrick day 09:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not even fan-crafted, as it was written from official sources. The novels are considered canon, and there's no way around that. All I'm getting under this impression is just censoring the information and making the article look lesser than it is right now. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.85.234.166 (talk • contribs).


 * Not fan-craft, fancruft. Look up the difference and Wikipedia's general policy relating to it. (note, however, that I take "fancruft" in general with a grain of salt, and am on the more liberal side of interpreting the Wikipedia fictional material policy.) Peptuck 16:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Just by that logic, we'd be talking about deleting at least a hundred articles for the sake of removing what is considered "fancruft," which is pretty much every existing fictional article.


 * more than that - there are literally thousands of articles that shouldn't be here and need to nuked from space. --Fredrick day 18:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The question here is: is this article even needed now? Because seriously, this is stub-quality right now, with barely any useful information at all. I would propose we simply delete this article and move relevant, useful in-universe information to the UNSC page Peptuck 13:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The UNSC article needs some seriously clean-up, I'd suggest attempting that before adding any more content. --Fredrick day 13:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Can I suggest redirecting this article to Halo, and add a link to the dedicated Halo article? Specifically, move this article to halo.wikia.com (I think that's the site) and delete the copy here, or redirect to Halo if you really must. Then on the Halo articles, under the External Links section, add a link to halo.wikia.com. If you do that, you have more freedom to add information, and less baggage. And one could do the same with those thousand-odd other mentioned articles, really. Ong elvin 05:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Na, this article actually has a lot of potential, just the fact that a "Development and desing" section can easily be constructed rewritting some of the information about Master Chief's desing offers us a lot of room for improvement. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  09:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Even so, you need to meet notability and verifiability requirements for an article. And there also needs to be real-world context. Sure people have made replicas of it, but really, how has that significantly affected society at large? Ong elvin 15:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)