Talk:List of Hunter × Hunter chapters

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This page needs to be added to the links listed in the box (template?) on the bottom of all the "Hunter x Hunter" pages under "Manga: Chapters" I don't know how to edit templates yet, and I can't seem to find an explanation. Shimawa zen 23:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The template is Template:Hunter x Hunter. I added it there. You can usually find a template by looking for the code, in this case, after you click "edit this page", then go to Template:(whatever the name of the template is) and edit it. I'll add some links to this template to make that easier.--Chaser - T 23:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Use of Images
Tintor2 (talk) is arguing against the use of the book covers in this article, claiming that images are excessive. However, I do not feel that these covers is against Wikipedia policy, nor in opposition to pages about volumes of manga in other series. I open the floor for third-party opinions. Shimawa zen (talk) 16:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I recommend to read NFC.Tintor2 (talk) 17:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that the pictures make the page more visually appealing, and they are relevant to the page topic. RSEagle (talk) 17:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, that is an opinion. Not enough to keep the images. I also recommend to pay a look at this, since they are the best lists of manga and anime from wikipedia.Tintor2 (talk) 00:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Please don't slam other people's opinions. Keep in mind that your views are opinions as well. The point of this debate is to allow multiple people to express their views, not to have one person declare what the precedent should be. Shimawa zen (talk) 01:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Policy trumps any of your opinions here. Tintor2 is quite right. Reading his link and WP:NFCC demonstrate as such. Please do not place the images back. Edit warring over the subject may result in your edits being construed as vandalism. Cheers, Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 02:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This is a discussion on the policy - an attempt to prevent further edit warring until a conscious is reached. Arbitrarily removing all the images mid-debate is counterproductive.  I have submitted an official help request to resolve this matter.  Please refrain from continuing to take this matter into your own hands before monitors can contribute to the discussion. Shimawa zen (talk) 03:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * While I have no opinion on the use of images in general — that is, I don't touch them and I don't mind the use or lack of them — I don't see why we should treat lists of manga volumes/chapters any differently than we treat lists of characters (which are cutting down on the number of images used) and episodes (which no longer have screenshots for every episode), and I don't see any reason to resurrect old debates, like Talk:List of Lost episodes/Use of images. —TangentCube, Dialogues 03:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Policy is pretty clear on this. The images of the covers actually doesn't add anything to the list and are there purely for decoration, thus violating WP:NFCC. --Farix (Talk) 03:31, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The policy is extremely clear on this and it has already been well discussed that an image of every item in a list of books, which includes chapter lists, violates WP:NFCC. A single image of one cover, usually the first Japanese volume if a decent image can be found, can be used at the top of the article to provide a visual representation of the series. Beyond that, no images should be included in a chapter list and Tintor2 is quite right in removing them. AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Please provide a specific reference to where images of specific volumes are deemed a violation. WP:NFCC does not specifically say anything about volume listings.  In addition, this has also become a matter of User:Sephiroth BCR (User talk:Sephiroth BCR) arbitrarily removing all the images without completing conscious or discussing ways to change "excessive" images to "reasonable" images by choosing what to keep/remove. Shimawa zen (talk) 04:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sephiroth BCR is enforcing Wikipedia policy, which is more than appropriate for an administrator to do. For NFCC, read the talk archives. The issue has been brought up numerous times, and the answer remains the same. Here are two from that specific talk page archive: Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 33 and Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 33.  The issue has also been discussed numerous times in other areas.  This is also the consensus of the Anime and manga project, as clearly noted by the recently created Graphic novel list having a notable absence of an image field, and in looking at any recent chapter FLs. AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * He's right, it completely is policy to remove all images to avoid any possible copyright issues, and the decision to prefer copyright-issue-less articles to properly illustrated more informative articles was apparently made long ago. That decision, in turn steered all subsequent discussion away from whether that decision was appropriate to the spirit of things.
 * Oh well, what can you except get completely discouraged, fight with other editors, and maybe start a separate wiki-style website, and even that's not possible except for the topics with the most devoted followings.-Zyrxil (talk) 06:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In truth, having an image of every cover does not "properly illustrate" anything, it only gluts the page for those who may not have high speed internet connections. We aren't a bookstore or book listing service. If people want to see every cover, they can go to the official sites, Amazon.com, or the Amazon.co.jp (for the original covers). And yes, I'm sure there are anime wikis and wikias who are less stringent on copyright laws and respecting the rights of those copyright owners, where images of every cover would be allowed. This article, however, is not there, and as such can and must follow official Wikipedia policy. Now, you're more than welcome to go argue that policy over at WP:NFCC, though I'd caution it is a waste of time. The edict regarding excessive non-free images came from the Foundation, and as such is not open for a lot of debate. Chapter and episodes lists, in general, are allowed one image, with proper FUR, at the top to illustrate the series as a whole, which is better than one suggestion that temporarily gained some ground, which really was no images at all in lists.AnmaFinotera (talk) 06:17, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Several 20kb low res images would hardly overwhelm even a 56k dialup connection, and you can't seriously argue an article wouldn't be more complete with illustrative covers. I mean, if the criteria is "They can find it easily on Amazon", why include any information? The point is to have it all here. As for copyright issues, IANAL, but low res book covers for illustrative purposes seems like fair use to me. The copyright holder isn't selling the cover, it's selling the book, and again, it's low res.
 * As for argueing, I know it's pointless going over "there", that's why I'm venting here. I wonder how many of those/you guys would still object in the improbable scenario that a group of editors obtained permission from the copyright holder to use certain images on Wikipedia, just on the grounds that it creates some kind of exemption from the hard-argued rules.-Zyrxil (talk) 06:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In the improbable scenario that an artist licensed his or her work for use on Wikipedia only, those images would still get deleted. That ban has been around even longer than the episode list reform.  —TangentCube, Dialogues 07:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate and agree with the above points by Zyrxil (talk). Unfortunately, clearly we've lost the position of keeping all the images. There does seem to be, however, a conscious that having one image at the top is permitted? Rather than generically merely putting the cover of the first book, I am choosing a cover that more accurately represents the series, and shows all of the central four protagonists. Shimawa zen (talk) 13:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

List improvement suggestions
Now that, hopefully, the image issue is settled, I offer a few suggestions for building up and improving this list:


 * Expand the lead as per WP:LEAD and viewing FL chapter lists. The lead should, at the minimum, discuss the series original serialization, Japanese release, English licensing, and English release. It should be long enough to support the new image, at the last, without having to use the - template (as I've put in now to prevent the image from over running the ables).


 * Overhaul the list to use the Graphic novel list template, and, of course, complete the release information and add some summaries :)


 * If the arc breaks are felt to be important and are clearly delineated between volumes, then use separate tables for each rather than one big table with headers. This will give a cleaner look and more clearly defined sections.


 * Improved references are needed. Is there an official site that lists the volumes? If not, specific references for information in the lead, and a more general reference note can be used to indicate where Japanese release dates and ISBNs were retrieved from.

Hope that helps some. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 14:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The irony of course being, the template has a section for cover art, though I guess you're supposed to fill that in with a description of what the cover art looks like :P -Zyrxil (talk) 16:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's basically for a text description of "whose on the cover", if desired :) It can also be used for other into, like the titles of the volumes, since Hunter x Hunter seems to have them. AnmaFinotera (talk) 16:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Where can you find a list of templates anyway? Is it all under WP:Template messages, and is just incredibly difficult to browse? -Zyrxil (talk) 16:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * For project specific templates, you can usually find them on the project page, though its missing from the anime and manga project page (and is something that should be addressed...) :P You can also look by category, for example Category:WikiProject Anime and manga. AnmaFinotera (talk) 16:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The lead does need to be expanded. As for information on Japanese releases and ISBNs, some sites in Japanese do have information on that.  For the ones in the United States, online book sellers like amazon usually have ISBNs.
 * In terms of the template, I don't see the particular advantage to overhauling to a generic "Graphic Novel" template when this one already has a pretty streamlined interface. The addition of a summery section would be easy, and could fit nicely in the currently vacant spot to the right of the ISBNs. Shimawa zen (talk) 17:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I like the predefined spaces in the template for both Japanese and English chapter titles. Right now we don't even know the source for the translated titles. I think I can pretty much do the converting, ISBNs, and chapter title all tonight. -Zyrxil (talk) 17:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...is Viz not retaining the titles on their release? If not, they shouldn't be included as they aren't official. AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The template was created specifically by the Anime and manga project for chapter lists. As for why? It provides a more consistent look and feel across our lists, and it is far easier for editors to work with and maintain. Doing the conversion would be pretty easy, just take an hour or so.  For ISBN sourcing, its relatively easy to get that and release dates from Amazon.co.jp if there is no official site for the manga.  Your suggestion of a summary beside the ISBNs does not seem very practical.  Do you really think having a good sized paragraph there would look good for anyone who doesn't have a super huge monitor? AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * My monitor is 1024x768, and the chapter list is horribly cramped and squished, as are the ISBNs and cover information. It just doesn't look very nice or well presented, and I doubt it would ever pass FLC if such a format were used. AnmaFinotera (talk) 20:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * My monitor is also 1024x768 and it doesn't have that problem, so apparently it doesn't display the same way even between screens of the same size. But, if it is causing problems for even just some people, it isn't the best choice to use.  Alright - somebody with free time can convert the template. Shimawa zen (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That, and the fact that every column must have at least one item in it where the colspan="1". Otherwise, the table rendering will be unpredictable between browsers, and almost certainly will not come out "right".  —TangentCube, Dialogues 00:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, definitely missing something, renders completely squished for me on Firefox 2.XX. I think the template does look a bit more organized: Also, why is my sig appearing before the box?


 * -Zyrxil (talk) 00:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You need to use Graphic novel list/footer after the last call to Graphic novel list to append the closing tag.  Without it, the cleanup scripts that translate and fix wikicode to HTML will mangle the order of the table relative to its surroundings.  I've fixed this above for you.  —TangentCube, Dialogues 02:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Volume Titles
I'm a little concerned by the edit summary from the recent clean up noting that Japanese title translations are given where Viz "made up" titles. Please keep in mind that we can not decide our own translations are accurate and correct. If Viz decided to change the title, this can be noted in the introduction or in footnotes, but please do not add fan translations or "the real English title" because we go with the official translations. AnmaFinotera (talk) 14:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The official volume titles are already there first, so I don't see a problem with adding them as the extra after the pronunciation section of the Nihongo template. They're not really fan translations as the volumes titles are always the titles of one of the chapters in that volume. At most, someone just has to confirm the titles of the chapters in the Viz volumes and any inconsistencies can be corrected. That's probably the biggest problem really, as the chapter list is not online anywhere, and I only own the Japanese volumes.-Zyrxil (talk) 17:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It looks confusing, to me. AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Wapuro? What?
This is news to me, but apparently there are different styles of Romanization, Wapuro vs Hepburn. Now, I copied the style of a featured article, and am currently using ō for ou and ū for uu when typing out the pronunciation of the Japanese chapter/volume titles. I apparently learned Wapuro, and am much more comfortable with ou/uu, but is there a WP:Anime Manga project guideline as to which is better? -Zyrxil (talk) 06:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) recommends the use of macrons over long O and U in hiragana and kanji and for all long vowels in katakana. —TangentCube, Dialogues 08:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

WikiEd: Editing Tool or Practical Joke?
This is ridiculous. Is there a way to make WikiEd not randomly disappear my cursor when I use delete/backspace/paste/cut/any action besides typing? -Zyrxil (talk) 18:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What browser are you using? AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Firefox 2.0.0.12 -Zyrxil (talk) 21:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...the only time I have a problem with that is if I'm on a very long line (like a long URL). Could it be an extension you have installed causing a problem? AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:21, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well this is the only Greasemonkey script I have installed, and I don't use that many extensions either. And nope, I just disabled them all and tried it out, still happens. -Zyrxil (talk) 21:28, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...odd. We're using the same version, though I have more stuff installed, so not sure what else to suggest trying. Is it all the time, or something recent? If recent, maybe a reboot? AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * All the time, though not consistently. E.g. I'll select a sentence to delete, press delete and my cursor is gone, so when press up or down it instead scrolls the entire edit window to the top or bottom. 5 seconds later I'll do the same thing and the cursor doesn't disappear. Are there any editing tools besides WikiEd? I'm only using it for the color hilighting. -Zyrxil (talk) 21:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I just realized you were using WikiEd :P I haven't used any editing tools myself, so can't really recommend possible alternatives. Does it have a talk page you could ask about the cursor issue on? Maybe a fixable bug? AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

English Titles
Really? Viz translated the title of Chap 187 as "The Best Fodder"? That's like the ultimate setup for a reference to the Most Dangerous Game. God, they have no imagination.-Zyrxil (talk) 23:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Toichi
For my own reference, the Toichi chapter of Volume 20, "Toichi" being an abbreviation of "tooka de ichiwari," or usury parlance for a loan that charges 10% interest for every 10 days. In the chapter it refers to Hakoware charging 10% nen interest every 10 seconds. I wonder how Viz'll translate that chapter title. -Zyrxil (talk) 20:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

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