Talk:List of Indigenous writers of the Americas/Archive 3

More redlinks
Here are a few more redlinks of more obscure individuals from the main article:
 * Luke Warm Water (Kurt Schweigman), Oglala Lakota
 * Wub-e-ke-niew, Red Lake Anishinaabe, 1928–1997

-Uyvsdi (talk) 20:19, 4 August 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi

More redlinks from the list:
 * Bernard Assiniwi, Cree, Canada, 1935–2000
 * Shonto Begay, Navajo, b. 1950
 * Esther Belin, Navajo, b. 1968
 * Salli M. K. Benedict, Akwesasne Mohawk
 * Kay Bennett (“Kaibah”), Navajo
 * Edward Benton-Banai
 * John D. Berry, Cherokee Nation
 * Moses Big Crow
 * Duane Big Eagle
 * Tiana Bighorse
 * D.L. Birchfield, Chickasaw-Choctaw
 * Fred Bigjim, Iñupiaq
 * James BlueWolf, Choctaw, b. 1950
 * Darren Bonaparte, Mohawk, b. 1964
 * Duwayne Leslie Bowen, Seneca, 1946–2006
 * Odilón Ramos Boza, Quechua
 * Susan Braine, Assiniboine-Hunkpapa Sioux.
 * Trevino Brings Plenty, Lakota
 * James Bruchac, Abenaki
 * Jesse Bruchac, Abenaki-descent
 * Margaret Bruchac, Abenaki
 * Leonard R. Bruguier, Sioux, (1944–2009)
 * David Burnette, Brulé Lakota
 * Diane Burns, Chemehuevi-Anishinabe (1957–2006)
 * Barney Bush, Shawnee Tribe
 * E. K. Caldwell, Cherokee-Shawnee, 1954–1997
 * Sophia Alice Callahan, Muscogee Creek, 1864–1894
 * Helen Slwooko Carius, Yupik, 1928–1998
 * Paul L.A.H. Chartrand, Metis
 * Rosa Chavez, Maya, Guatemala
 * Fredy Chicangana, Yanacona, Colombia
 * Robert Maurice Chute, Sokoki
 * Briceida Cuevas Cob, Maya
 * Jacques L. Condor, Abenaki
 * Katsi Cook, Mohawk
 * George Cornell, Ojibwe, born 1948
 * Marcia Crosby, Tsimshian-Haida, Canada
 * Allan Crow, Ojibwe
 * Beth Cuthand, Cree, b. 1949
 * Moses Cruikshank, Athabascan, b. 1906
 * Steven J. Crum, Duck Valley Shoshone-Paiute
 * Delano Cummings, Lumbee
 * Marilyn Dumont, Cree-Métis, Canada, b. 1955
 * Heid Erdrich, Turtle Mountain Ojibwe
 * Liselotte Erdrich, Turtle Mountain Ojibwe
 * Lance Foster, Iowa Tribe of Kansas and Nebraska
 * Lee Francis III, Laguna Pueblo-Anishinaabe, 1945–2003
 * Santee Frazier, Cherokee Nation-Choctaw-Potawatomi
 * Gaspar Pedro González, Q'anjob'al Maya
 * Rayna D. Green, Cherokee-descent, b. 1942
 * Inés Hernández-Ávila, Nez Perce-Chicana
 * José Tamayo Herrera, Quechua
 * Roberta Hill-Whiteman, Oneida
 * Geary Hobson, Quapaw-Cherokee-Chickasaw, b. 1941
 * Isaac Huamán, Quechua
 * Ariruma Kowii, Quechua, Ecuador, b. 1961
 * Luis de Lión, Maya, Guatemala, 1939–1984
 * Eduardo Ninamango Mallqui, Quechua, Peru
 * Manipiniktikinia, Kuna, Panama
 * Howard L. Meredith, Cherokee, 1938–2003
 * Victor Montejo, Jakaltek Maya, Guatemala
 * Agnes Nanogak, Inuit, Canada, b. 1925
 * John Milton Oskison, Old Cherokee Nation, 1874–1947
 * Charles Red Corn, Osage Nation, b. 1936
 * Kim Shuck, Cherokee-Sac and Fox-descent
 * Paul Chaat Smith, Comanche
 * Rennard Strickland, Osage-Cherokee descent, b. 1940
 * Mary Tall Mountain, Athabascan, 1918–1994
 * Tim Tingle, Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma
 * Laura Tohe, Navajo, b. 1952
 * Rebecca Hatcher Travis, Chickasaw
 * Umantuu, Quechua, Peru, b. 1962
 * Robert Allen Warrior, Osage
 * Calixta Gabriel Xiquin, Kaqchikel Maya, Guatemala
 * Mamo Zareymakú, Arhuaco, Colombia

-Uyvsdi (talk) 20:06, 3 November 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Of tribal DESCENT
The Native American Arts and Crafts Act" specifically prohibits individuals not enrolled as members of a federally recognized tribe from falsely identifying their work as 'native' or 'Indian.' One of the few remaining sovereign rights of Native American tribes is regulation of membership.  Skirting the law by identifying authors as a "descents" of a tribe is comparable to the marketing advantage gained by adding forged signatures to counterfeit designer clothing.  It is illegal for both the seller and the artist.  By aiding fake Indian authors to 'sell' their work by listing if under the title “Native American Authors,” Wikipedia not only disrespects Native Americans, but puts itself in legal jeopardy by aiding and abetting a crime. The Native Arts and Crafts Act originated in response to imports falsely labeled as "Indian."  It was passed before the proliferation of "home grown fake Indians," but both are prohibited. These fraudulent "Indians" have been eliminated from many other art forms, but are proliferating in the literary arts which are fraudulently marketed and used to climb the academic ladder.

The disclaimer in the introduction to this article demonstrates knowledge of the issue, but by including the authors who identify themselves as "Descendants" in a list of Native American authors aids both the artist and the seller of their counterfeited arts. It demonstrates disrespect for both Native Americans and tribal rights. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.128.192 (talk) 23:04, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There's no such thing as the "Native American Arts and Crafts Act." The American Indian Arts and Crafts Act covers visual artists and includes members of state-recognized tribes. Yuchitown (talk) 03:24, 19 April 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Please check the archives of discussions on this page, as this issue has been debated pretty extensively. The IACA does not apply to literary works. As there is no legal requirement to prove enrolment, and because many tribes do not police authors, it isn't possible to say in many cases whether an author is a citizen without doing original research (not allowed under the Wikipedia policy WP:OR) Vizjim (talk) 06:49, 19 April 2016 (UTC)


 * "Descendant" is a specific term used by some tribes to describe that they acknowledge that a person may not meet their current blood quantum or other requirements for enrollment, but does have a valid claim to tribal descent.  Montanabw (talk)  21:26, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Responding to User:Vizjim's statement: yes, it is very possible to trace someone's enrollment. Some tribes do have laws and policies concerning authors. If the individual is notable by Wikipedia standards, the tribe writes about that person using enrollment terms. Yuchitown (talk) 21:49, 20 April 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * OK, a useful first step would be to get a list of tribes who do have laws and policies concerning authors. I've checked the Navajo and Cherokee codes and can find nothing of the sort that you mention, but if you know more or are willing to do the work across all tribal nations then that would be a great step towards a solution that would respect individual tribal nation laws. I am not saying that you cannot trace someone's enrollment but unless this appears in a publicly accessible website it would count as original research. I think you overestimate the amount of press releases tribes send out about authors and the strength of tribal websites and news services once you get outside the largest tribes. Just to take a random example, Janice Gould is definitely Wikipedia-notable, but is not mentioned on the Konkow website : yet any policy must cover small tribal nations as well as the large well funded ones. You do frequently get repudiations where tribes say such-and-such an author does not have the ancestry or citizenship they claim - those cases such as Ward Churchill are dealt with already in the standfirst.  Vizjim (talk) 12:28, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Wait, sorry, I thought you were the OP. Were you just making this point for clarification? Vizjim (talk) 12:30, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not the OP. Yuchitown (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown


 * Also note that this argumentation does not apply to Indigenous peoples outside of the US, where there is not usually any such thing as "enrollment" and formal affiliation.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:25, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Canada has status Indians and enrollment processes. There is controversy in other countries about certain celebrities claiming indigenous descent, such as Q'orianka Kilcher claiming Huachipaeri descent, but due to systematic bias most of us aren't familiar enough with the issues to comment. Yuchitown (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown


 * My take is that perhaps the list itself could be annotated (and sourced) with "enrolled member of foo tribe" or "self-identifies as foo" or "descended from foo ancestors" or whatever can be sourced.   Montanabw (talk)  00:39, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * That's already happening to a degree. If a living or late 20th-century individual from the US or Canada is listed next to a tribal affiliation, then that person is an enrolled member of that tribe. The original poster, 68.97.128.192, has a point that "of descent" is a wild card—it could mean people who clearly are descended from a tribe but cannot enroll, e.g. Rose B. Simpson, or people who are widely accepted to have heritage in their tribes, Craig Womack. Self-identification alone is insufficient; there has to be some acknowledgment from the tribes in question. The best practice (already partially in place) is define a person by their specific tribe. Such as Waawaate Fobister being Grassy Meadows First Nation Anishinaabe or Dennis Banks being Leech Lake Ojibwe, as opposed to simply "Ojibwe." Tribal websites aren't going to cover Native writers, but tribal publications will. "Cherokee" is the most contested affiliation, since the most non-native people claim that identity, but both the Cherokee One Feather and the Cherokee Phoenix are online. Yuchitown (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown

What defines "writers"?
On a different tack, how does one determine who is notable enough as a writer to be included in this list? I found under wp:author: Authors, editors, journalists, filmmakers, photographers, artists, architects, and other creative professionals: The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors. The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory, or technique. The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. The person's work (or works) either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention, or (d) is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums. Right now, it seems like any Indigenous person from the Americas who's ever published anything is included, but every academic would be expected to write. What defines a notable "writer" here? Yuchitown (talk) 19:02, 1 May 2016 (UTC)Yuchitown


 * I'd say that GNG applies, but we may need to be a little more assertive about looking outside the box for third party critical acclaim and such. Blogs, self-publishing, all that is still a no-no.   Montanabw (talk)  21:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The old version of this used to have a lot of redlinked entries, but now it is almost 100% blue. A writer can appear here if they are deemed notable enough to have their own WP page (and satisfy the other criteria), and their notability should be challenged on their own page rather than here. Any author pages later deleted will show here as redlinks and then they can be removed. Vizjim (talk) 08:27, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

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Cherokee Descent and the lede
If we are going to remove the phrase Cherokee-descent from N. Scott Momaday's mention on the list without a WP:NOTABLE satisfying source for the removal, we also need to remove the phrase from the following entries:
 * Winfred Blevins
 * Gladys Cardiff
 * Trace DeMayer
 * Diane Glancy
 * Owl Goingback
 * Red Haircrow
 * Thomas King
 * Mardi Oakley Medawar
 * Marijo Moore
 * Louis Owens
 * Craig S. Womack

Blevins, Cardiff, Glancy, King, Medawar and Moore would be removed altogether under this move.

We might also need to remove some or all of the following entries for people who claim tribal affiliation by descent:
 * Ai
 * José María Arguedas
 * Jimmy Santiago Baca
 * Joseph Bruchac
 * Lorna Dee Cervantes
 * Chrystos
 * Susan Clements
 * Garcilaso de la Vega
 * Jack D. Forbes
 * L. Frank
 * Jewelle Gomez
 * Allison Hedge Coke
 * Janet McAdams
 * Nas'Naga (Roger Russell)

Again, even a single published source disputing Momaday's mother's self-identification would be enough to get it removed. I know that this is a widespread belief among many Cherokee and other Native editors, and it might well be correct, but it is not substantiated. It might be an idea to contact David Cornsilk (who is very approachable) and see if he is willing to investigate the matter and publish something official in the Cherokee Observer. That would then be a reason to remove the Momaday claim from this list without insisting on formal citizenship as a criterion.

It might (sigh) also be an idea to discuss the lede. The original wording was substantially different, and the criteria set out here cannot easily be satisfied. How can we check "recognition by the relevant indigenous community/communities of the individual as a member of that community" using published sources for some of the more minor writers? Vizjim (talk) 08:22, 5 December 2018 (UTC)


 * You restored the Cherokee descent on Momaday's listing back in the beginning on November, so not sure what prompted you to bring this up now. One-size-fits-all doesn't work, since these various writers aren't siblings and aren't all claiming the same cultural affiliations. N. Scott Momaday is enrolled Kiowa, and that's typically all he claims. For instance here's his bio on poets.org, Encyclopedia Brittanica, National Native Hall of Fame (Native organizations are more sensitive to tribal affiliation issues than non-Native publications), PBS, etc.
 * Many of the people you listed above should be removed from the list, but no one is publishing articles about how writers are not who they claim to be, except Joseph Boyden (including your "very approachable" friend David Cornsilk, who is all over social media but doesn't write actual articles or books). So descent the long-established way to let readers know they are not enrolled in a tribe (or in L. Frank's instance, that their tribes are not recognized by the US government even though they are widely acknowledged by their fellow Indigenous Californians).
 * Regarding: "How can we check 'recognition by the relevant indigenous community/communities of the individual as a member of that community' using published sources for some of the more minor writers?" Same thing you do throughout Wikipedia: find reliable, published sources. Tribes and Native organizations publish all the time. Native peoples aren't magical unicorns that defy logic or rules. Yuchitown (talk) 16:18, 5 December 2018 (UTC)Yuchitown


 * It came up because another editor removed it again yesterday. Not sure the snark was particularly needed here. Vizjim (talk) 17:24, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, I was legitimately wondering. Calling Cornsilk "very approachable" is honestly hilarious and gave me a good laugh. Pretty sure that commissioning writing from Wikipedia would be even further against policy than original research. Are you proposing a policy change or just pointing out that many people listed are not enrolled members of tribes? Yuchitown (talk) 18:41, 5 December 2018 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Oh, I know Cornsilk can be prickly if challenged, (and more than prickly on social media), but he's answered direct questions for me on several occasions, with documentation where he has it. I'm not proposing a policy change - I agree with Bearcat's position, below, which has been the default assumption on this page pretty much since it was set up in 2003, i.e. "try to be inclusive when there is debate, try to be correct, follow the published sources." Vizjim (talk) 09:18, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

My main concern with these lists, per usual, is that we don't lump in known false claimants / scammmers / imposters with people who have documented heritage. There's a difference between imposters and honest descendants who just don't meet enrollment criteria. Enrollment vs non-enrollment is easy to handle. In cases where it's unclear, I defer to leaving them out, as respectful people don't make false claims. But really, nons who think it's unclear are usually just out of the loop. With Momaday, if he doesn't claim it, why add him? Why revert people to put him back? Why revert people to assert heritage they don't claim? There's no reason to pad these lists, and doing so could have real world negative consequences. (I'm not talking about Momaday in particular, just in general.) - CorbieV  ☊ ☼ 20:48, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Me, I'd leave them in where it's unclear. It's not for an encyclopedia to make judgments on whether someone is "respectful" (or respectable). A number of non-citizen Native authors clearly have shaky claims to Native ancestry, and quite a few writers with tribal citizenship wouldn't pass any kind of cultural test for that matter. But if their work is being read as "Native American literature" (and we could get into a discussion of whether that should be thought of as a genre), if they have not been contradicted by WP:NOTABLE sources in their claims to Native identity, and if they are notable enough to qualify for an article they should be on a list that indexes notable Native authors.Vizjim (talk) 09:34, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I thought it was a Wiki-wide protocol to not list living people as simply being "Cherokee." They either are enrolled members of one of three Cherokee tribes, enrolled members of another tribe but have documented/verifiable Cherokee ancestry, or are listed as being of Cherokee descent. Then, if their claim is extremely spurious, they should be listed as self-identified Cherokee descent. This specifically pertains to Cherokees (although Delaware and Apache also have false claimants) because non-Native people (knowingly or non-knowingly) falsely claiming to be Cherokee outnumber actual Cherokee people today. Instead of being Cherokee until proven otherwise, people are not Cherokee unless it can be proven in verifiable citations. Luckily, the Cherokee One Feather and Cherokee Phoenix are both online, so finding sources for any actual Cherokees (who are notable—that's a whole other problem with this list) is no problem. Yuchitown (talk) 18:06, 6 December 2018 (UTC)Yuchitown


 * Proving indigenous status is obviously a complex issue — but from our perspective as an encyclopedia, it's even more complicated by our sitewide rule against original research. I won't name her here for BLP reasons, but there is a Canadian actress whose claims of First Nations heritage have been questioned by blogs engaging in an amateur doxxing campaign — but to date, no reliable sources have ever investigated the matter of whether she's really indigenous or not, so while people have certainly tried to use her Wikipedia article to portray her as a lying liar who lies, that claim hasn't really been proven and isn't referenceable to the required standard or quality of sourcing. And similarly, Joseph Boyden was listed in this article until reliable sources actually outed him — the claim wasn't any more true in 2008 than it would be today, obviously, but until reliable sources had debunked the claim it wasn't our job to investigate it ourselves. Until reliable sources had actually disproven his claims of indigeneity for us, all we could do was take the reliable sources which said he was of indigenous descent strictly at face value in the absence of any reliably sourced evidence to the contrary. So, of course, we obviously require sources before we can add a person here, but if reliable sources can be found which say that a person is of indigenous descent, our job is not to independently reinvestigate whether they're right or wrong about it by going spelunking through Ancestry.com for their genealogy — our job is to simply accept it as accurate until reliable sources have told us otherwise. Bearcat (talk) 20:15, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Vizjim tucked her/his comment between CorbieVreccan's and mine above. There's an established protocol of saying "descent" or "self-identified descent." Not all sources are of equal value, so more recent sources from knowledgeable institutions are preferable to outdated sources from institutions with no particular knowledge of Native identity (for instance, www.ipl.org/div/natam/ is an outdated, unreliable source) in the same way that a 21st-century peer-reviewed medical journal is preferable to a 1980s copy of National Enquirer on a health matter. From WP:Conflicting sources: "In many cases, when two (or more) reliable sources conflict, one (or more) of those sources can be demonstrated to be unreliable. Additionally, in the case of subjects about which the general or academic consensus has changed, the older work should be clearly distinguished as such, and should be used primarily to show the historical development of the subject." Yuchitown (talk) 16:28, 7 December 2018 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * From wp:hoax: "If challenged, the burden is on the original author to prove the claims in the article." So that's another dynamic. If editors are too lazy to furnish citations, their additions to the list should be removed. Another point in this discussion is membership to a tribe is a specific politic status in the United States, which is distinct from claiming an ethnic heritage. The comment above: "quite a few writers with tribal citizenship wouldn't pass any kind of cultural test for that matter" is absolutely not how Native American identity is established in the United States. Yuchitown (talk) 16:41, 7 December 2018 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Yes, that statement came about because I was thinking about the genre question brought up in the next sentence. I'm aware of how political identity is established, just as you're presumably aware of the problematics of that imposed form of identity, e.g. in cases of nations with BQ laws, and the way that cultural knowledge can also figure into some non-citizen writers' acceptance by the relevant nation. However, maybe this discussion is going down a line that might potentially take us to a "List of authors who are citizens of American Indigenous nations" article. Which might be a good idea as a separate list. Thoughts? Vizjim (talk) 11:05, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Systems works AFAIC. The list is for all countries in North and South America. In Mexico, Native identity is based on Indigenous language; in the United States, it's based upon membership in tribes with the addition of Native Hawaiians, who are Polynesian and have different criteria. In the US, tribes determine their own membership criteria, so "imposed" is inaccurate.


 * No one on this list is barred from inclusion due to blood quantum laws, so that is a strawman. If I mistaken, kindly provide examples. As User:CorbieVreccan pointed, no one takes issue with descendants uneligible to enroll; questions arise when people are claiming heritage they cannot prove, but there's stop-gaps in place for US artists with questionable claims (self-identified Foo descent). That's the way it has been. No one has even tried to remove anyone from the list for having a questionable heritage; two of us have just tried to remove Kiowa writer N. Scott Momaday's previous, mistaken claim of being of Cherokee descent, which is embarrassing now (his daughter doesn't make the claim, and he has stopped), but I can live with it remaining despite being inaccurate, since that's Wikipedia policy.


 * If you are honestly proposing a name change to "List of authors who are citizens of American Indigenous nations," as opposed to just making some rhetorical statement, I would oppose, since in Canada, the term "American" is interpreted as referring to the United States as opposed to the Americas. Yuchitown (talk) 16:33, 9 December 2018 (UTC)Yuchitown

Oh my gosh there are a number of problematic individuals on your list Vizjim. Self identification doesn't cut it. FWIW, the Bruchacs are no longer self-identifying as Abenaki, they've had a turn of conscience and now self-identify as being descendants or not naming Nation ties at all.The Cherokee Phoenix and One Feather pblish comprehensive lists annually regarding tribal members. This information is public and both publications are reliable sources. In regard to N. Scott Momaday's mother Mayme, there are inaccuracies regarding her claims. She claimed to have gone to Haskell. Searching the online archive of Haskell's student database shows she never applied much less attended. She claimed to have chosen to attend in 1929 rather than being a forced student but there are absolutely zero records for her there. It's also very creepy in my opinion to force an ancestry on an individual that they no longer claim. Indigenous girl (talk) 00:47, 10 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to reconfig the page, as Yuchitown has already addressed it and I don't want to cause further confusion, but please follow talkpage protocol from here on in and keep messages linear instead of inserting responses into ongoing conversations up-thread.
 * Agree with Yuchitown and Indigenous girl that, as I already said, Indigenous identity is not murky or confusing to the Nations, or to Natives. The Nations themselves, and publications from the Nations and people who speak for them, are the WP:RS sources for who is Indigenous, not things like pop culture bio blurbs by nons in things like People or TV Guide, etc. Even non-Native publications that employ fact-checkers have gotten this wrong at times, if they only check unreliable sources themselves. - Corbie</b><b style="color: #006E0D">V</b>  ☊ ☼ 20:52, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I haven't really taken part in so many lengthy talkpage discussions for a while. As per BLP rules we can't really discuss individual cases, but let's take a hypothetical. Let's say there is an author who is not a citizen but who claims to be Cherokee, but who has won the Cherokee medal of honor, at least one award from Wordcraft Circle of Native Writers and Storytellers, and has been regularly anthologized in collections edited by Native academics. For (e.g.) David Cornsilk, that person is not Cherokee. To say that there are no debates on these issues or that any nation holds a monolithic opinion is just not correct. Tribal governments can themselves be problematic sources on occasion (again, BLP, but I do have some specific cases in mind).Vizjim (talk) 08:01, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 * That person would be of "Cherokee descent." Who's saying there's no debates? The Cherokee Nation designated Willard Stone as a tribal artisan, which drives DC crazy, but he is not the unilateral authority on all aspects of tribal designation (it's a bit odd that you keep bringing him up when he doesn't publish citable articles). BTW Pueblo tribes reserve the right to ostracize tribal members! Wordcraft Circle of Native Writers is similar to the NAMMYs, in that inclusion is absolutely no indication of Indigenous heritage or tribal membership. Yuchitown (talk) 16:15, 12 December 2018 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * On the Momaday question, again, all that's needed is a single source that says he and his family do not claim that identity. Until then, the published sources (including his own writing) do not support this removal. With the Bruchacs: Joseph Bruchac still claims Abenaki heritage on his website and press releases. There absolutely are legitimate questions there (http://reinventedvermontabenaki.blogspot.com/2013/02/joseph-bruchac-marge-margaret-bruchac.html) but no reliable source disputes the affiliation that I can find.Vizjim (talk) 08:01, 12 December 2018 (UTC)


 * He identifies as Kiowa. That's it, nothing more. And it should be respected. His mom said she applied to and attended Haskell, she didn't. Looking at her familiy's genealogy which is accessible she was not 1/8 though I get that a person's genealogy isn't WP acceptable. With regard to the Bruchac siblings I find them to be beyond problematic and they divert funds and recognition from actual Abenaki Peoples. Indigenous girl (talk) 00:03, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Was the deletion of my name from the list of "List of writers from peoples indigenous to the Americas" appropriate?
I am still a citizen of the federally recognized Cherokee Nation, and I am still an author. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Day_in_North_American_Indian_History Phil Konstantin (talk) 21:19, 23 September 2019 (UTC) Phil Konstantin (talk) 21:18, 23 September 2019 (UTC)


 * If notability only rides on having a BLP, the answer would be to not include. But if consensus is that now having Phil Konstantin redirect to your book This Day in North American Indian History is sufficient notability, you are WP:RS sourced as being a citizen of the Cherokee Nation with this in-community source from the CNO newspaper: . Right now there are less notable people on the list. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 22:21, 23 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I've never worked on this list so I may not have a very informed opinion. But I did write that book article, This Day in North American Indian History, and it's a legit enough book which is, for what it's worth, cited in dozens of Wikipedia articles. I don't think someone who clicked on Phil Konstantin from here and ended up at the book article would feel defrauded or like they ended up at a page with irrelevant information. So I think it wouldn't be crazy to include Phil in the list. Haukur (talk) 23:41, 23 September 2019 (UTC)