Talk:List of International Society for Krishna Consciousness gurus

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I believe I made a mistake, trying to add a list of ISKCON Initiating Gurus who are not Sannyasis... please advise. mahabhagavat.sda

Hi Wikidas, I noted you removed this article and redirected it citing "No notability to the list itself and no independent reliable source to verify." I am new to Wikipedia but I feel that this article should stand for the following reasons: - A list of religious leaders is surely notable as can be seen here: List of living cardinals. - I cited my source as the official website of the ISKCON Sanyassi Ministry, which is the only independent reliable source to publish a list of ISKCON Sannyasis. Please explain why you disagree? --Tintomat0es (talk) 12:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The list of living cardinals seems notable, list of iskcon sannyasis not notable, meaning compare with, btw there is a difference between the living, current and former sannyasis, it was not reflected on the list (of whome majoriti is not notable). I would not suggest sannyasis are of equal status to cardinals in RCC - not every sannyasi can have an article on Wiki as some do not have sufficient media or third party coverage at all.  Wikid as&#169; 14:13, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Wikidas, Quantity of sources is not a criteria for WP:N ("It is important to note that a notability determination does not necessarily depend on things like fame, importance, or the popularity of a topic" and "Avoid criteria based on search engine statistics (e.g., Google hits)" and "When using Google to help establish the notability of a topic, evaluate the quality, not the quantity, of the links.") nor WP:BIO ("The topic of an article should be notable, or "worthy of notice"; that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded."") According to WP:SALAT "Selected lists of people should be selected for importance/notability in that category and should have Wikipedia articles (or the reasonable expectation of an article in the future)." All ISKCON Sannyasis are notable within the category of ISKCON and one can reasonably expect that over time all will have individual articles. I believe you agree that many of the names on the list are notable. Further an incomplete list also permits that there is no requirement for every member of a list to be notable for the list itself to be notable enough to publish. All the Sannyasis are notable for their relevance and importance to the category ISKCON and do not necessarily deserve their own articles: "Lists may include people who are notable for a single event or activity and therefore do not have their own article, if they are of particular importance in the context of this event or activity." Your assertion that a list of ISKCON Sannyasis is less notable than a list of Roman Catholic Cardinals is somewhat subjective. According to WP:WPLIST some lists may justifiably remain incomplete for some time. Also, per WP:OSE, religious lists such as the following contain more red names than blue names, and certainly some are far less notable than a list of current ISKCON Sannyasis: Disciples of `Abdu'l-Bahá; List_of_Buddhists; List_of_Buddhists; List_of_Protestant_missionaries_in_China; List_of_Abunas_of_Ethiopia; List_of_Algonquin_Chiefs; List_of_Protestant_Reformers. Further this list falls under WP:HINDU/V as ISKCON Sannyasis are relevant and notable within this category. --Tintomat0es (talk) 22:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You can as well try for a list of monks. In a group of under a 100k list of the monks is notable, but not for Wiki, moreover you are not proposing including all ISKCON sannyasis, but only the small current and living group. There is already one ISKCON members list and I suggest improving that one with notable people. Are you proposing including Alanath swami, Kirtanananda Swami etc - since they were ISKCON sannyasis?  Wikid as&#169; 00:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not proposing a list of monks. ISKCON is the category and it concerns a group of people larger than 100k, both currently and historically, and all of the current Sannyasis are notable within this category. The list is indeed all ISKCON Sannyasis as published by ISKCON Sannyasa Ministry, in the same way that Disciples of `Abdu'l-Bahá is the list of all 19 Heralds of the Covenant whilst only two of them are notable enough to warrant individual articles. Past Sannyasis are not in the scope of the list. Notable past Sannyasis may appear in Category:Former_International_Society_for_Krishna_Consciousness_religious_figures. List of ISKCON members and patrons serves a different purpose as it includes non-Sannyasis, further its introduction only allows for notable members whereas my proposed list is incomplete and may include currently unnotable Sannyasis. I am not proposing to include Alanath or Kirtanananda as they are not current ISKCON Sannyasis. I agree to rename my proposed list from "List of ISKCON Sannyasis" to "List of current ISKCON Sannyasis" and to put the incomplete list tag and to remove the website links. If it's ok with you I am moving this talk to the List's discussion page. --Tintomat0es (talk) 06:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sannyasi means a monk in ISKCON (a life long dedicated celibate or a male person who "promised" not to marry). I disagree that you can claim that the list is incomplete or is based on a third party source, as it is the requirement for all biographical materials relating to living people. You keep making a references in the style well other lists like that exist -- please read WP:ININ -- it will answer your question. This approach is wrong. It is your obligation to ensure the sources you use are good, subject is notable and it complies with WP:BLP with special attention to being supported by very good sources. So far it fail WP:RS, WP:OR and WP:BLP and thus was nominated for deletion. Wikid as&#169; 08:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sannyasi does not mean monk. If you want to define sannyasi in English using words of Christian origin, then a better transliteration/comparison is: sannyasi is to bishop or cardinal as brahmacharya is to monk. I don't keep making references to WP:OTHERSTUFF, I made references to WP:OSE which clearly states that the policy can be used effectively to assess precedent and consistency. This discussion is subjective so you should not assert that my approach is wrong - I could equally assert that your misquoting me is wrong but it's better to remain positive in these discussions. This is not WP:OR, primary source (ISKCON Sannyasa Ministry) is valid to support content and has been referenced in many ISKCON-related WP articles. See AFD for the rest of the discussion.--Tintomat0es (talk) 15:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope. Sannyasi is a monk, brahmacari in ISKCON is a 'celibate priest in training', who can become a monk 'sannyasi' or a married man, both of whom can be bishops or cardinals, ISKCON Sannyasa Ministry is not notable and can only be used as a supporting source, sannyasis in ISKCON do not carry management of the ISKCON duties. The tags on primary sources will be added to the article until proper independend sources are found or article is deleted. It is duty of one who adds the material to ensure that source is a reliable source independent of the subject (in this case not by ISKCON sannyasis). Wikid as&#169; 19:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Non notable list
See blow redlinks. Once article created and notability accessed - items from below can be added to the main page with references to years etc., Wikid as&#169; 10:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Notes