Talk:List of Jews born in the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union/Archive 1

In the List?
Please answer or add to the list.


 * Lilya Brik
 * André Levinson
 * Lera Auerbach
 * Michael Chekhov
 * Mark Gayn, or Mark Julius Gayn (born on Barim, Asian Russia)
 * Feodor Yulievich Levinson-Lessing
 * Sulamith Messerer
 * Asaf Messerer
 * David Lichine
 * Yuri Yankelevich
 * Lydia Litvyak
 * David Edelstadt
 * Vladimir Minorsky


 * Pollak? Litvak? Galitsianer? Ukrainian?


 * David Gurevich
 * Hanna Rovina
 * Berthold Lubetkin
 * Sophie Irene Simon Loeb(Sophie Irene Loeb)
 * Jerome Friedman
 * Sergei Sakhnovski
 * Alexander Vilenkin
 * Hanon Izakson


 * --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 03:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Russian descent? Pollak? Litvak? Galitsianer? Ukrainian?


 * David Copperfield
 * Abraham J. Twerski Twersky family was Chernobiler descent
 * Abraham Ellstein
 * Eddie Cantor
 * Louis Ginsberg (poet) (article need)
 * Allen Ginsberg
 * Kirk Douglas (family came from Odessa)
 * Julius Katchen
 * Judy Holliday


 * --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 04:01, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


 * List of Russian Jews/temp

Jewish?

 * Boris Berezovsky (pianist)
 * Elizaveta Gerdt
 * Mikhail Yakovlevich Suslin (other Suslin, Suslov people)

from LazarKr to User:72.144.172.2

 * to user: 72.144.172.2
 * I've reverted your last changes to my changes, that I've have done before.
 * I don't know you and your contributions to Wikipedia, becouse your are anonymous.
 * 1. According to your remarks you think that all persons that I've added to List of Russian Jews didn't make Profound Contribution to Russia. All this persons are Members or Corresponding Members of Russian Academy of Sciences. There is no more Respectable Institution for Scientists in Russia and former USSR. You`ve deleted several physicists that made great Contribution to development of Soviet nuclear weapons. For instance, there is Institute of Nuclear Physics that called by name of Gersh Budker.
 * 2. A great many of persons that you have removed from List appear in Wikipedia in vaious places : first of all as Russian scientists and in various lists of People by occupation. Why don't you make an effort to Remove all this persons from not Jewish Lists, before you interfere in Lists of Jews?
 * 3. You have made a lot of syntax corrections. For instance, spelling of 'Belarusian' and 'Azerbaijani'. In Wikipedia in section of people is List of various Peoples. Why before correcting somebody's  Syntax You don't bother to check the Suggestion of Wikipedia.
 * LazarKr 10:06, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

to LazarKR

 * to LazarKR
 * you're right. All the people you added to this list did NOT make big enough contributions to be listed. If we were to list all the member of the USA academy of sciences for some majority city, a good 90% would not be worthy of having a wikipedian list. That's like saying that since your father was a successful physicist and he deserves a wikipedian list. Wikipedia just doesn't work like this. You are adding too many names of little or no significane, and everyone will attest to that. Some pages just cannot be stretched. Instead, why don't you contribute to nonexistent pages and lists?

to Antidote from LazarKr

 * 1. I've included about one hundred Russian Jewish scientists Members of Russian Academy of Sciences in List of Russian Jews. You have deleted twice by revert all this persons. In the last revert you are implying that I'm behaving against the rules of Wikipedia. Perhaps you are right. I'm rather new active User (two month of expierence in editing). So I want you to help me.
 * If somebody enters a big amount of new names with an appropriate edition, can another User delete all this entries without any explanations? If this according to Wikipedia policy, please direct me to appropriate paragraphs.
 * You can't just put any names of scientists on a list like this, especially considering over 90% of them have no articles. That would be equivalent to making a list of Mensa members. Not every Mensa member is important enough to list in Wikipedia. Like I said before, my father (for example) may be a great physicist but you can't include him on Wikipedia because it is likely he did not accomplish anything big enough for his name to be listed.
 * You can't just put any names of scientists on a list like this, especially considering over 90% of them have no articles. That would be equivalent to making a list of Mensa members. Not every Mensa member is important enough to list in Wikipedia. Like I said before, my father (for example) may be a great physicist but you can't include him on Wikipedia because it is likely he did not accomplish anything big enough for his name to be listed.


 * Despite you didn't explain these deletions, I suspect, that you think that all these persons don't deserve to be included in Wikipedia. All these persons are Members of Russian Academy of Sciences. Part of them are Foreign Members of Academies of Sciencies of other Countries. Several persons are nuclear scientists. I know that Combination of Nuclear Scientist and Member of National Academy of Sciences makes them Outstanding Personalities in all the World.


 * A combination of being a nuclear scientist and in an Academy of Science does NOT make you an outstanding personality in all the world. I know more than 1 nuclear physicist just personally and I would never consider them important enough to list on Wikipedia.


 * I don't know how you came to conclusion, that all these people don't deserve to be included in Wikipedia. If you can explain me it will cirtainly contribute to our dispute.


 * I have already explained: NOT EVERY PHYSICIST CAN BE LISTED IN WIKIPEDIA. It would be too extensive and destroy any use this list has. Leave that to the Russian archives.


 * But things are rather more complicated. This dispute is not only bewtween us. I've Identified in the List of Russian Scientists in Wikipedia at least sixteen persons that You've deleted (that does not include Russian Jewish scientists that were in the List of Russian Jews defore I've entered the above persons). All these sixteen scientists are not only mentioned by names, but have an appropriate articles. It means that Wikipedia Editors of List of Russian scientists believe that all these persons deserves to be included in Wikipedia. It does't make sense that you will delete names of these scientists in the List of Russian Jews without deleting the same names from the List of Russian Scientists. So if you insist to delete these scientists you have to communicate with Wikipedia editors of List of Russian scientists and convince them that these people don't deserve to be included in Wikipedia. Several big Russian Institutes and Departments of big Institutes are named by the names of these scientists. So if you are consisrent in your opinon that these people are worthless you can apply to Russian President Putin and try to convice him to change the names of such Institutes.


 * The scientists that have articles written on them are already listed in the categories, and other lists.


 * 2. You've also deleted the Reference to List of Jews in Russia (USSR) that based on names of Prominent Jews which mentioned in Russian Jewish Encyclopedia (about nine thousands names). I've included this reference in order to allow to any user that have doubts about Jewishness of some particular person from territory of USSR to check wether this person appear in the list.


 * That source is already listed on infinite amount of pages for one. Secondly, I know nothing about the credibility of that page, and it's credibility isn't what we're arguing about anyway. It's the inclusion of so many people.


 * 3. You have deleted names of three persons from the List of Belarusian Jews. Let us discuss all this cases.
 * 3.1 Paul Baran - the outstanding scientist co-inventor of Internet.
 * You claim that he isn't a Jew.
 * No, I claimed that he is not a Belarusian.


 * 3.2 Isaac Asimov - writer
 * You claim that he is not Jewish.
 * No, I claimed that he was not a Belarusian.


 * 3.3 Naum Akhiezer - I didn't explain why did you removed this name. Please, give some explanations.
 * Once again, not an ethnic Belarusian.


 * 3.4 I'll restore the situation before your interferance. I can assure you that after your answer on my letter I'll reconsider my response according to quality of your explanations.
 * (80.230.113.161 20:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)) LazarKr


 * I you want these people to be noticed, go ahead and add a link to the bottom of the page, but listing them on Wikipedia is quite frankly ridiculous.

How do we proceed
May I propose a simple solution to this dispute. Instead of adding tons of red links, let's start from the other end and create articles on notable people. We'll categorize them one-by-one. Every one of us has some knowledge to contribute, I'm sure we can get along and serve our readers better if we collaborate on making high quality encyclopedic resource. &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 00:19, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

From LazarKr - Destortion of my Letter to Antidote
My original letter was written in 20:25 on 27 October 2005 under User 80.230.113.61
 * User Antidote Destorted my Letter to him. Some original patches were deleted. Some new Patches were included. If somebody wants to read my original letter he can find it in History:
 * I strongly protest to Destortion of my Letters and believe that such action is against the rules of Wikipedia.
 * Any User can write in the Discussion whatever he likes, desirably not Anonymous.
 * LazarKr 08:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I deleted parts of your letter that were rambling so I can more easily respond to your questions, genius. You need to calm down and get a grip. 72.144.71.194 19:34, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Protected
This article has been protected for repeated revert wars. I do not endorse the current version, as both LazarKr and 72.144 are reverting without discussion at all. LazarKr: do NOT bite the newcomers. 72.144 has been creating numerous articles and contributing to the encyclopedia. 72.144: before making what could be substantially controversial edits, please discuss them first on the talk page, no matter how annoying you think your fellow contributors. &mdash; BRIAN 0918 &bull; 2005-10-30 13:47

I have already discussed with LazarKR this issue many times. All the people he added that are of any importance to this encyclopedia are already accounted for in my revisions. I even added a link to the Russian Jewish page so people can browse the less important members of the Academy; but Lazar seems to think that its ay-ok to add every single Russian Jewish scientist who ever existed in the USSR onto this list, when most of them cannot even be found on www.google.com! Making a list of Yale graduates is equivalent to what he is adding on this page. My former revisions should be kept for they include all the scientists of whom have articles including a link to the Academy pages. That is much more efficient than adding millions of red-links of people who did nothing more than hold a profession in the USSR. In addition to this LAZAR is adding many peoples of who's nationality isn't even Russian. He disregards my edits on list of East European Jews of which account for all his articled edits and just gets revert trigger-happy. It's a simple concept: Ukrainians go on list of East European Jews and Russian go on list of Russian Jews. We cannot have all on both pages. 72.144.172.181 21:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
 * While adding a ton of red links isn't necessarily good, we should always leave room for expansion. Maybe you can compromise by allowing people that do have some significant presence on at least Google (for verifiability reasons). I agree about keeping Europeans on European lists and Russians on Russian lists. Let's wait for LazarKR to reply and go from there. If you think he is revert warring on other articles, let me know. You also might consider making an account so that I can more easily contact you (rather than trying to hunt down your current IP). &mdash; BRIAN 0918 &bull; 2005-10-30 22:12

This is my account. I honestly think that there is a bit too much praise-bloating on this page. The people who are currently accounted for are a wonderful sampling and a link to the others is perfectly satisfactory. Inserting infinite amounts of red links just fumbles up the page, especially considering it will be very difficult to write articles for all these people. I say we should just leave the people I had in my last revert, but making sure they are all infact jews (since I caught several blatant mistakes) and making sure they are in fact Russians (and not Ukrainian or Poles). Antidote 06:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

New list
Can all members involved please work up a new verifiable list at List of Russian Jews/temp. Please use references. &mdash; BRIAN 0918 &bull; 2005-10-31 06:41

The people I added to the list are all 95% certified Russian (not Ukrainian/Belarusian/Polish) Jews. I think the list should be presented like that with the addition of a link to the "Prominent Jews" on a separate website. Antidote 07:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, let's see how others reply. If you could find more links to sites that list prominent Russian Jews that aren't on your list, that would help with compromise. &mdash; BRIAN 0918 &bull; 2005-10-31 12:20

Lazar's just not gonna reply now because you already locked the page on the way he wanted it. Also I will consider adding some of the articled peoples (but most are Ukrainians and not Russians) :-/ Antidote 05:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I just finished going through the Russian's list and added all confirmed Jews to the temp list. As of now it should be 95% accurate, much more so than the current list. Antidote 22:56, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Alright. We need at least one more opinion on this first, preferably from LazarKr, but if you can find someone else on here that would know about this, and convince them to take a look at the new list, then I'll be comfortable with it and replace the old version with it. &mdash; BRIAN 0918 &bull; 2005-11-1 23:22

Like I said, Lazar is not going to respond since we have the list saved on the way he wants it. Unfortunately I do not know many editors on here, but I am currently looking. Antidote 04:49, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

To Brian0918 from LazarKr
I ,personally, don't dare to delete even one person from List if I have't some information about such person. Russia and ,desirably ,knowleage of scientific aspects of Russia have to be involved.
 * You've protected this list in order to avoid revert war becouse of content dispute.
 * First of all, I think, that content dispute here is only a secondary matter.
 * User Antidote (sometimes he use his second name Homus Sapiens or acts anonimously) deleted about hundread persons from lists of Russian Jews, without knowing anything about this persons.
 * You made an effort to find solution and protected this List for editing. I think that you just postponed this dispute. I'm a new user (about two month of active editing), so I don't know, how such disputes resolved in Wikipedia. I think that somebody else, with a good knowleage of
 * LazarKr 08:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

LazarKr: first, you discard my constructive edit and instead of fixing the mess and apologizing, you accuse me in being someone's sockpuppet. Please get familiar with WP:RULES. &larr;Humus sapiens&larr;ну? 09:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

LazarKr: You ignored the discussion, when you could have debated the entries, and instead waited until the article was unblocked to revert again. Unless you start discussing the entries and stop reverting, further action will have to be taken. &mdash; BRIAN 0918 &bull; 2005-11-4 14:07
 * to Brian0918: May be it's comfortable to accuse somebody in vandalism without trying to understand what really happened. I can't resist the power of Administrator. From now anybody can do what he likes in List of Russian jews. I would be glad if you will explain The Revert of my changes in List of Nobel Prize Winners.
 * LazarKr 19:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Reversion
So if it's accepted that they're Russian and Jewish, why shouldn't they be on a list of Russian Jews? Why confine the information to noting on another list of Russians that they're Jewish?--Brownlee 20:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As part of wikipedian standards we put people of first-generation American birth on a list of X-Americans. If you feel its somehow not clear that they are Jewish (despite them having sources saying they're jewish and being on list of jewish americans), you can make a section similar to the one on List of Polish Americans whereas the Jews have their own section. Stop re-adding them to this list, it is considered vandalism if you do not give a valid reason. If you feel it is unfair that first-generation americans are not categorized purely by their ethnicity, you can argue for the merging of all X-American lists with their subsequent European counterparts. Thank you. 65.10.45.212 15:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, please don't delete Zhirinovsky - undoubtedly had Jewish father. Secondly, please don't alter Lev Rapoport to Lev Rapoprt because then the link won't work. Thirdly, there is no official standard as you claim. Fourthly, this is an ethnic list, and these people are undoubtedly ethnic Russian Jews. Thank you.--20.138.246.89 15:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Ethnic groups/Rules for lists of X-Americans. 65.10.45.212 16:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This is not a policy; it's a discussion. Further, the position you advance is not mentioned.--20.138.246.89 16:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The position I advance is part of the basis of the discussion. The whole reasons for including X-American lists as opposed to just simply adding everyone to lists of their ancestry. 65.10.45.212 16:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree, but that's scarcely relevant. Please provide a link to the relevant Wikipedia policy.--20.138.246.89 16:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It is completely relevant. Why are you adding Russian-Americans to this list then? Not all wikipedian standards are enumerated. Link me to a policy that says we can add people to a list based solely on their great grandparent's ancestry. They are standards that arise from discussion. If you wish, we will bring several editors to help clear up this mess. 65.10.45.212 16:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * By all means delete everyone on the list with only a Jewish great-grandparent, and bring as many editors as you like.--20.138.246.89 17:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

When has this discussion become about who's Jewish? This is about who can be listed on a non-X-American list. If they were born in Russia, its fine, if their parents are born in Russia but they are born in the US, they do not qualify for this list per the introduction of X-American lists. By the way, lets discuss this all on the GREEK page, its too hard going from page to page. 65.10.45.212 17:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This is not a list of X-Americans, it's the List of Russian Jews. It's irrelevant here whether someone is also an X-American. There is of course no reason why someone cannot be on two lists if that is appropriate. Which Greek page?--20.138.246.89 17:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The reason they can't be on two lists is because we'd have to standardize EVERYONE from X-American lists to be on two lists then. And please please move the discussion to TALK:List of South-East European Jews, I'm getting dizzy. 65.10.45.212 17:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Lera Broditsky
Anyone have a source to see if she was born in Russia? 16:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm taking the liberty of emailing her and asking, as it is apparently the only method by which to go by. 65.10.55.187 14:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Now to implent a standard to go by with two X parents. We'll use the great flying Dutchman, an American sports-player born of two German parents.

Equivalently, entry Abraham Maslow was an American-born, American-raised psychologist of two Russian parents.

Furthermore, writer Saul Bellow was born in Canada to Russian parents but later established his career in America.

As we would not put Honus Wagner, AKA the Flying Dutchman on List of Germans but rather List of German Americans, there's no reason to put Bellow and Maslow on a list of Russians.

Changes will not be implemented until a few days to give time for comments etc. 65.10.55.187 15:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You can't e-mail her and ask her; that's original research.--20.138.246.89 16:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)