Talk:List of Johto Gym Leaders

Resources

 * Bulbagarden - This is free info (its a wiki!)
 * Morty page
 * Bugsy page
 * Pryce page
 * Chuck page
 * Pojo.com
 * Serebii.net needs no introduction.
 * Serebii's anime character page
 * Serebii's manga character page - This is all info from Pokémon Adventures/Special, and should be noted as such

If this merge is completed, Template:Johto_gym needs to be removed from all pages and placed on WP:IFD.
 * All that need to be expanded now are the Morty, Bugsy, Chuck and Pryce bits (of which Pryce is the most urgent). --Celestianpower hab 21:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Please remember that the material on Bulbapedia is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0 license. This license is incompatible with the one used here on Wikipedia. Be careful when using info from our wiki here, as we must be when we use info from here on 'pedia. --Archaic, Bulbagarden.net webmaster, a.k.a. Mukashi 07:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Merging the Gym Leaders
It has been suggested that Bugsy (Pokémon) be merged into this article or section. It has been suggested that Chuck (Pokémon) be merged into this article or section. It has been suggested that Claire (Pokémon) be merged into this article or section. It has been suggested that Falkner (Pokémon) be merged into this article or section. It has been suggested that Jasmine (Pokémon) be merged into this article or section. It has been suggested that Morty (Pokémon) be merged into this article or section. It has been suggested that Pryce (Pokémon) be merged into this article or section. It has been suggested that Whitney (Pokémon) be merged into this article or section.

Previous discussion of this topic is at WP:PAC#IMPORTANT NOTICE! POKEMON ARTICLES UP FOR DELETION!, User talk:Acetic Acid, User:Celestianpower/Archive2, Wikipedia talk:Pokémon Adoption Center, and User talk: A Man In Black.


 * For anyone wanting to debate the administrivia surrounding the original merging, I was WP:BOLD and merged mnior character stubs into a single article per WP:FICT. People questioned the merges and reverted them, so I added the tags and opened this discussion.
 * Yes, I acted without a specific call for consensus; considering most of the articles were written by anons, hadn't been cleaned up except for the addition of stub tags, and were largely unlinked except by a infobox that appeared nowhere but on those pages, I didn't think there would be a problem. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 19:01, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * But this was after putting them on VfD. The consensus so far had called for a strong keep and not a merge. Therefore the articles should have been kept. If you had not put it on VfD and found out that the majority eanted it kept then we could beleive the BOLD frame of mind but as it stands that doesn't really stand. It was a spur-of-the-moment, rash desision. --Celestianpower talk 19:11, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I didn't see any of the votes after I marked those VFDs as "Delist" before merging the articles, and, as such, it would be hard to take those votes into account. The idea to merge came from my conversation with Ryan, and it may have been his idea. (I can't remember offhand, and it doesn't actually matter.)
 * I entreat anyone who feels like griping at me to instead focus their energies on improving the articles in question, either the lists or the stubs, or, failing that, enter into this debate and contribute that way. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 19:38, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Argument
Paraphrased and condensed from above links The Gym Leader articles are not, as written, useful articles. They aren't heavily linked, they aren't fleshed out, right now they don't establish notability (or even context)at all, and WP:PAC has about 150 or so Pokémon to plow through before getting to them. I'm not convinced that some of them can be brought up to full article status, but I'm happy to be proven wrong. Until then, merging them into lists make reference easier, make it easy to link them, make it easier to find the info with search, and makes it easier to see what still needs to be done.

Ideally, I'd like to see List of Johto Gym Leaders and List of Hoenn Gym Leaders as a list of one- or two-paragraph summaries of the characters, with See Also links for the characters who have enough personality and backstory to justify an article.

Until then, unlinked two-sentence stubs are exceedingly unlikely to be of use to anyone, especially compared to lists that at least establish context and allow for quick reference. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 16:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I feel WP:FICT supports my efforts to merge these articles and there is ample precedent for this sort of list in other fandoms: for example, List of minor Star Wars Jedi characters (note that some of these characters were main characters or recurring villains in multiple series of novels and comics) and List of recurring characters from the Simpsons (some of which have been featured in a round dozen episodes, as well as the Simpsons comics). Recurring appearance in Pokémon Adventures makes the Gym Leaders peers of these characters with regard to notability and encyclopedic character. I think we're better served following the precedent set by the Simpsons and Star Wars fandoms than the somewhat excessive example set by certain other fandoms. Bear also in mind that we already have hundreds of individual Pokémon species articles as it is, so it behooves us to show restraint elsewhere when possible. Reducing the number of articles that need to be maintained, in marginal cases, serves to make maintenence easier. Not merging these articles results in somewhere between three and five dozen articles on Gym Leaders and their ilk that need to be maintained, and, unlike Pokémon species, new Gym Leaders (or Area Leaders, or similar one-off "boss" trainers) are added all the time, in each new game or anime/manga saga. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 12:46, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Discussion
I agree with this merge. This article is about a non-notable fake person... at best it needs to be in a larger article possibly List of Johto Gym Leaders. Gateman1997 17:09, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * A Man In Black, you aren't saying that we shouldn't have 393 articles on the Pokémon creatures are you? --Celestianpower hab 12:53, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * In practice or in theory? Personally, I disagree with the outcome of WP:Poképrosal, as I still would be happier with merged lists by evolution, but that ship has long sailed, for a variety of reasons, and I'm not about to suggest reversing it, because that would require a lot of work to accomplish only theoretical long-term benefits and a lot of real drawbacks in the short term.
 * Right now, we have an opportunity to create scalable, maintainable lists of characters, lists that allow for quick reference and context for non-Pokémon fans, as well as tempting them to learn more. The Gym Leader and other character articles as they stand need to be rewritten either way right now, and if we merge them now, it will result in approximately the same amount of work as if we left them separate. Merging them tempts lay readers, encourages semi-knowledgeable readers to learn more, and doesn't inconvenience already-knowledgeable readers.
 * In a perfect world, we'd make the kind of articles that prove the people who moan about "Pokecruft" wrong. I don't see how Tate & Liza does that, especially compared to List of Johto Gym Leaders, which, worst-case, gives you informational links galore in the intro and other listings.
 * If we're just writing for Pokémon fans, might as well pack it in and head to Bulbapedia. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 13:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * An incomplete list of Pokémon articles that bear merging under WP:FICT is at User:A Man In Black/Poketasks/Merge. Note that most of the Hoenn leaders and all of the Orre leaders have already been merged, and that a number of minor characters aren't yet listed. Anyone marked with a See Also wouldn't be merged, though. Were these articles not merged, every single one of them and more character articles besides would need maintenence. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 13:41, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Argument
Please respond to my arguments where I make them, instead of moving them to some other page and then 'answering' there. Almafeta 00:56, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

My problem with the merge was the lack of discussion and consensus. Nobody seemed to have thought about it at all, just doing it as the thought came to their head. We saw the attempted merge of Horsea, Seadra and Kingdra into the Horsea, Seadra, Kingdra but the individual ones didn't just get redirectised. Nobody believed enough information could be found but we've made about 200 articles in a couple of months and 50 in 8 days recently. It is easier to make a proper article if we have a starting point. However, if we find this impractical or inordinately difficult, I will be happy to have all of the information here; so long as that is the consensus. I'd prefer to have one large arrticle than lots of un-expandable stubs but we need to establish that they are unexpandable first. --Celestianpower talk 18:12, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Nobody is arguing that the information isn't useful. I was arguing that in their form as largely contextless stubs, poorly linked and under very specific titles, they were useless to anyone who didn't already know more than what the articles already said.
 * Like I've said, I'd be happy to be proven wrong, and if a merged subject gets fleshed out enough to justify a full article, the listing in the List article can easily be cut down to stub status and a see also link, and the now-improved description can be spun off into a new article.
 * Merging them into lists make them useful now, while not preventing their later division into full articles if there is indeed enough info. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 18:52, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * What to do about the stubs for the individual Pokemon had been debated for months and months. The other minor characters hadn't been discussed much at all, and most of them weren't posted until about a month ago. Since nobody had seen fit to even clean out typos and formatting errors or link to these articles, I assumed nobody was particularly invested in them. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 18:52, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * These unexpanable stubs are growing slowly if you'll notice. Some are going to want to break out soon-ish I should imagine. Chuck and Whitney are quite large now. Well, not large as such but certainly no longer stubs. --Celestianpower hab 16:32, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Mm. I disagree that those are very close to breaking out. I'd really like a big fan of Pokémon Chronicles to come in and expand the heck out of the Gym Leader listings, but, at the moment, there's about half a page on each Gym Leader, which seems like list material to me. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 17:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Contrast the Chuck and Whitney listings with List of recurring characters from the Simpsons and List of recurring characters from the Simpsons. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 17:05, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * You have a point I suppose. At least however they are not unexpandable. There is plenty of information out there. Plus, that Simpsons article is way to big. --Celestianpower hab 17:09, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Granted that there's more info and that they're not unexpandable (did I ever argue that? Can't remember), but the context is still valuable, and this article is showing no signs of growing to the mammoth size of List of recurring characters from the Simpsons any time soon. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 17:15, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I still say that the List of recurring characters from the Simpsons article is too long anyway. Our immediate goal for this article should be to get all of the people big enough for that table. Plus, there are 48 characters on that page. --Celestianpower hab 17:19, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I think we're agreed, at this point. And List of recurring characters from the Simpsons direly needs to be broken up into halves of the alphabet at this point. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 17:30, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd really like a big fan of Pokémon Chronicles to come in and expand the heck out of the Gym Leader listings
 * Why Pokémon Chronicles? I don't think any of the Gym Leaders are in it apart from Misty and Brock, and they have their own articles for good reason.  Not that that is an arguement to merge, since they appear in plenty of other places. Sonic Mew | talk to me 22:54, August 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * Pokémon Adventures, sorry, sorry. Got the names mixed up in my head. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 23:04, 13 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Although one good thing has come from the merge, these gym leader articles are lots better than they were. Whitney is very comprehensive now and I've put the information onto the old Whitnewy page. I'll try and do some on Pryce, Clair and Jasmine next. --Celestianpower hab 11:49, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Anyhoo
I think we should merge them for now, until the PCP can focus their attention on it, I've been overalling the Hoenn leaders, adding the info boxes and padding it out. I personally think that the Kanto articles need more attention!

List of Kanto locations has Pallet Town and Fuschia City in it, and nothing else! I added the other titles so I could work on them slowly. No one else seemed to notice the emptiness of it. --Highway 22:31, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a months-old debate, and the upshot was that they'd be best off merged, since these are such minor characters. There's no need to have multiple paragraphs about each of their Pokémon (as you might find on a fansite), for example. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:47, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Japanese names
Falkner (Hayato): ハヤト

Bugsy (Tsukushi): ツクシ

Whitney (Akane): アカネ

Morty (Matsuba): マツバ

Chuck (Shijima): シジマ

Jasmine (Mikan): ミカン

Price (Yanagi): ヤナギ

Clair (Ibuki): イブキ


 * These all correct, right?—M_C_Y_1008 (talk/contribs) 18:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way, does anyone know Dorian's Japanese name?—M_C_Y_1008 (talk/contribs) 18:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

IMPORTANT !!!!!! READ THIS !!!!! MUST READ !!!! IM SERIOUS !!!
BUGSY IS A SHE NOT HE !!!1!!11!!!!1! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 116.14.5.161 (talk) 09:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC).
 * ...wrong, calm the fuck down, and sign your posts.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 14:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was move. Jafeluv (talk) 22:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

List of Johto gym leaders → List of Johto Gym Leaders &mdash; "Gym Leader" is the correct capitalization. Mathemagician57721 (talk) 12:58, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose All of the lists use "gym leader" in the title without the caps and the nominator hasn't given any sources or other reasoning as to why this is incorrect. --Farix (Talk) 00:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support - The three other Gym Leader pages will need to be moved too because official Pokémon material has both "Gym" and "Leader" capitalized. Proof here ("Pokémon Emerald also features a new Gym Leader"), here, page 17 ("If you are able to beat a Gym Leader"), and here ("Well, Candice is the Snowpoint Gym Leader"). It's a bit strange no one noticed this mistake until now. - sesu  PRIME  08:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support I was thinking it was more like "mom", where if you say "Hey, Mom!" its capitalized. But if you say "Thats my mom" its not. I think Gym Leader is a different case though. Blake (Talk·Edits) 13:37, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, "Gym Leader" is like "Pokémon"; capitalized no matter the usage. - sesu  PRIME  13:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Now the other pages need to be moved as well. All three of them have a redirect page at the requested destination, so an administrator will need to do it. Blake (Talk·Edits) 00:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)