Talk:List of LGBT Jews

[Untitled]
Should this page's "Musicians" listing be "Music business", since it includes producers, managers, talent agents, etc.?

Sergei Eistenstein
I never realised Eisenstein was gay. Can anyone find me some evidence to support this?


 * See for example his GLBTQ entry. Though, having said that, it may be worth moving him to the "debated orientation" section. -Udzu 20:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Guido Westerwelle
I removed Guido Westerwelle as he seems not to be Jewish. According to this bio sheet he belongs to the Evangelical Church in Germany. --Angr/undefined 18:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Is This page offensive ?
I don't know about being fair to Jews (or fair to gays for that matter), but I don't understand why this deserves a wiki page... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.251.214.120 (talk) 01:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

This page isn't fair to Jewish people. It should be removed because it is defaming Jews. 69.218.181.192 20:54, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure of that, but by the same token I'm not sure why this intersection is important. As far as I can tell there are no other LGBT lists by ethnicity or nationality. There's no List of LGBT Germans, List of LGBT English, or List of LGBT Japanese. There's also none by religion if one takes that approach. It is possible that this does serve "a message" that Jewish people are more socially liberal/progressive, but whether that "message" is praise or defamation depends on one's perception.--T. Anthony 13:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * In re the first comment above, this page does not defame Jews in any way. It is merely a list of people who happen to be both Jewish and lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender.  Ask any one of the people on the list (except the dead, of course) and I think you will find they perfectly proud to be Jewish and perfectly proud to be lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender.  I am quite sure they do not feel in any way defamed - and since they're the people who are listed, they're the ones who would rightly have any right to complain if they felt they were being defamed.
 * In re the second comment, I don't know that any of the lists which appear anywhere in the Wikipedia are important. Indeed, when one thinks of encyclopaedias, one does not think of a collection of lists.  For whatever reasons, the editorial board of the Wikipedia decided that this endcyclopaedia does contain a number of lists -- of people, places, things, etc., of all kinds; including, obviously, a list of LGBT Jews.  If there are no lists of LGBT Britons, Americans, Germans, Japanese, Christians, etc., perhaps that's just because nobody from one of those groups has gotten around to creating a list yet.  Perhaps they will now.
 * 207.200.116.203 09:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree why not just have these people listed in along with everyone else in the category of "LGBT people"? Why are they singled out as being Jewish? Not all of these people even are Jewish, have a Jewish heritage, or practice Judaism.71.175.29.32 (talk) 04:18, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Higher Percentage of Gays/Lesbians Found in Modern Jews -- Research
I'm wondering if anyone has come across any serious scholarly research that has examined the fact that Jews tend to be quite overrepresented amongst the gay and lesbian populations in the modern World, particularly in the USA and Western Europe. I have read about this on certain Jewish websites and in a couple Jewish newsletters/newspapers, but have yet to find any academic research on this matter. I know that the worldwide Jewish community is generally very gay/lesbian friendly, but I am looking for information/statistics that have has confirmed the noticeably higher incidence of homosexuality/lesbianism in the (mostly secular) Jewish population. Thank you for any information that you can provide. --205.188.116.73 16:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Magneto (from X-Men) was gay?
I thought he was just Jewish. His article says nothing of his sexual orientation.
 * He definitely has sexual relationships with women. I suspect soemone has put him on there becasue Ian McKellen, the man who plays him in the film and very, very gay. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 13:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well. There has been a certain amount of fan speculation about his relationship with Charles Xavier in various universes, particularly the Ultimate line of comics, where they run away from their wives together and describe the experience as "far more powerful than being in love".  Arguably, this is simply an example of the somewhat overwrought behavior to which Marvel comics characters are prone.  My own opinion aside, I'm going to remove him, since nothing is or is likely to be verifiable.  &mdash;Cel  ithemis  03:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Another call for sourcing: H.L.A. Hart
With lists such as these, there are always thorny issues about categorization. For example, I was very surprised to discover that [H.L.A. Hart] was a homosexual, until I made the further discovery that he was married with four children and that it is some unnamed, unsourced "biographers" who claim that he's gay. I'm not going to do anything about it because doing that would involve a revert war and most likely some nasty attacks on my own motives. I would like it if someone would properly source this list and indeed leave out the ones whose sexuality is based on conjecture, or by a claims made by a minority of their biographers (who after all often make such claims to generate attention; if you don't believe me think of Albert Goldman's scandalous biography of John Lennon [which ironically enough accused him of homosexuality-- add Lennon to the list of LGBT Britons!]), but this is wikipedia after all and it is expecting too much for people to follow historical methods. Allon FambrizziAllon Fambrizzi

More on Sourcing

 * I have decided to delete all the entries that are not sourced. The page will never be sourced otherwise, and it's the least one can ask for given the controversial subject matter, and the fact that much of this is debated. Don't worry; the old entries will all be saved in the page history and may be reinserted at any time with sources. Note that like most editors I don't consider blogs or webpages run by activists to be proper sourcing. Allon Fambrizzi 12:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi
 * Just to say that I agree totally with Allon Fambrizzi. WP:LIVING requires controversial comments about living people to be referenced. The not verified template is not adequate to cover this problem. Each entry can be added once a reliable source is found to confirm that this person is (a) Jewish and (b) Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual or Transgendered. WJBscribe (WJB talk) 12:56, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Then why haven't you removed all the unsourced names in "Straight contributors to LGBT culture"? Udzu 12:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Fictional characters?
I do not think that a list with this title should have fictional characters in it. Were there to be a separate list of LGBT Jews in fiction I would support it because such a list would have precision, and would not dilute the valid list of living and dead real people.

I am considering being bold and splitting this article, but I suspect that might be viewed as controversial. It would be infinitely preferable to build a consensus over this and to determine whether this section has a true place here or would be better in its own article. Fiddle Faddle 16:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The list is now split. See article page. Fiddle Faddle 07:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Link to List of LGBT Rabbis does not go to such a list
The link (under the category "Religious figures") goes to an external website's homepage, and IF there is indeed a list of LGBT rabbis at that site, I cannot find it.

I WOULD have deleted it, but I am hoping that such a list exists, and that someone could change the link...? Jfarber 23:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Why Boleslaw Lesmian was removed from the list
After doing an extensive reading on Lesmian's biography, I can see no LGBT connection. On the other hand, his heterosexual extramartial affairs are well known and broadly described (e.g. with Dora Lebenthal).

The source cited here is the only one I ever came across. It mentions Lesmian among some other Polish writers, who like Iwaszkiewicz were undoubtedly bi- or homosexual (and many sources attest that). In case of Lesmian, hovever, neither his biography, nor his works reveal any homoerotic quality whatsoever. heyst, 6 July 2007

Leslea Newman?
Hi! Does anyone know if Leslea Newman wasn't included on the list of writers for a reason? Just an oversight? I believe she's always been very open about her sexual orientation and wrote the seminal LGBT children's book, Heather Has Two Mommies. I was curious about whether she was omitted for a particular reason? Thanks! Howardsmith 16:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

What evidence is strong enough?
Given an actor who has only publically had straight relationships, and then "hints" at being bi during interviews related to a bi/gay character. Is that enough for inclusion, or should it be ignored as marketing. The example that prompted this question is Mia Kirshner, who is on this list and List of bisexual people, with the only source being a hint dropped during an interview related to such a role.


 * A hint is absolutely not enough, since we are relying on our interpretation of the hint. We need an unequivocal statement by the subject ("Speaking as a gay man, I...") or by a reputable third party ("X, who has lived with his boyfriend for the past 20 years..."). Barnabypage (talk) 11:16, 14 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, only the "unequivocal" statement would be allowable for living people. WP:BLPCAT would prohibit the second type of example. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:22, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Year of birth
The year of birth appears only for a few people on the list, such as:

Isaac Mizrahi (1961 - ) American fashion designer

Arnold Scaasi (1931-) Montreal-born American fashion designer Since this info is missing for all the others, I think it should be removed completely. What do you think? Or maybe keep the birth/death year only for those who died, so they will be easily identified?Kvsh5 (talk) 08:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing
I have removed every entry in this list which was either not sourced, or not sourced to a reliable source. Not only were there no reliable sources that they were LGBT, there were no reliable sources that they were even Jewish. There are also a lot of sources I've left that I'm not sure are reliable, but I'm going to take it to WP:BLPN for further discussion. Woogee (talk) 22:15, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I wonder if your actions may meet with some controversy, but I'd like so say good work! P. D. Cook  Talk to me! 14:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My understanding of stand alone lists is that they dont need references, if the names on them are links to WP articles, and the main article has adequate sourcing to meet inclusion criteria for the list. only nonlinked names (or "redlinked") need sourcing, to show notability, and for this list self identification as a jew and as a lgbt person. I really hope names werent removed whose main article clearly indicate their status. if, however, the main article didnt show those identies with adequate sourcing, then yes, they did need to be removed from this list.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 15:27, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, there are no exceptions to WP:V and WP:BLP. Each item on the list must be cited for both being LGBT and Jewish, in this article. After cursory glances through the list I've already found a number of dubious entries, which I've removed. Jayjg (talk) 12:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand. but, its disingenuous to remove a name from this list, when the article for the subject has reliable sourcing. it would be just as easy to copy and paste the reference from the main article as it would be to delete it. so i hope no one is doing that. I would guess that something like 95% of all names on lists like this dont have the references on the list page, but only on the article page. thats a lot of work that could easily be improved rather than erased. Please note that im not saying anyone IS doing this.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If the article for the subject has reliable sourcing, then the person adding the name can include. Flaws in other lists are no reason to introduce policy violations in this list. If someone wants to do the work, let them do it. I will quote from the very first section of WP:V:
 * "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation."
 * The bold type is in the policy itself. See WP:BURDEN. Jayjg (talk) 08:26, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

In support of this discussion, i have added some text to the lede, a dynamic list tag, and hidden text to clarify inclusion criteria. I see this a lot at other lists, and it may help keep unsourced names off the list. If i was too bold, please say so and why.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 07:07, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've tried that in the past, with little success, but I hope it works. Jayjg (talk) 08:26, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Richard Quest
See WP:BLP/N for discussion. Collect (talk) 20:13, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you need to present your arguments here, on this talk page. You need to note that the report was in mainstream non tabloid, non sensationalist media. It passes WP:RS, and as such cannot fail WP:BLP. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 20:30, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


 * WP:BLP is Wikipedia policy.
 * Categories regarding religious beliefs or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources.
 * Is Wikipedia policy. That is, a strong rule for articles, lists and categories.   The source given is insufficient to meet those criteria - that the source be strong, and that the information be directly relevant to the notability of the person. Collect (talk) 20:42, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Taking those arguments, the source is strong. It is a national and well respected UK newspaper. The Guardian is most assuredly a reliable one. The quote is attributed to the man, and he self identifies. This is why I added the precise quotation. I understand your argument, but feel it cannot apply. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 20:47, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You fail to answer the absolute sine qua non here -- is it relevant to his notability? How? WP:RS is not sufficient for WP:BLP edits alone, as others have told you.  Collect (talk) 20:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please be a little less militant when you answer me. The article, if it is a valid article at all, presents information about LGBT Jews. I don;t really understand why the article is present at all. Being Jewish is hardly notable. There are many millions of Jewish people. Being LGBT is hardly notable. There are millions of LGBT people. Being LGBT and Jewish is an intersection of two scarcely notable sets anyway. That it intersects does not make it notable. But, since the list has been deemed to be a valid article to have on Wikipedia by virtue of three deletion discussions to date, this fairly trivial intersection appears to be notable.
 * Following that argument, anyone who is him or herself notable who is bith LGBT and Jewish and whose status is correctly cited has every reason to be on this list.
 * So Quest is a notable person. And he is self identifying as Jewish and LGBT. That seems to me to satisfy the criteria for this list.
 * If he was attracted to sofas and were Pastafarian this would be immaterial because no-one would consider List of Sofa Attracted Pastafarians to be a valid article at all anyway Fiddle Faddle (talk) 21:03, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I did a preliminary look to find sourcing for his being both gay and Jewish and it doesn't seem presently to be a notable intersection for Quest. He may just be more interested in his journalism career to emphasize this in his bios. Insomesia (talk) 07:31, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

LSC
I disagree that it is appropriate to add this requirement. This is not a project-wide requirement and we may not create different rules for LGBT people and Jews than we do for anyone else. See, for instance, List of American Catholics - can you really argue that Catholicism is relevant to even half of the list members? The non-clergy (unfortunately not separated out) at List of Anglicans? Gain community consensus to apply this to all lists of people. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 19:19, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think your argument is incorrect, though I see why you argue it.
 * It is incumbent upon us to create and maintain articles, all articles, within recognised and strict criteria. That these criteria have not so far been applied to some other articles is not a reason to fail to apply them. It is a reason to argue strongly in favour of applying them to all articles in order to create a substantially better Wikipedia than exists at present.
 * Some of the lists on Wikipedia are banal in the extreme. Those that you mention have the potential for "extreme banality" just from their titles. Assuming it is valid that this list, here, exists, then it needs to be the best list it can be in order to be wholly above question and reproach. INstead of objecting to the addition, stand back a couple of paces and see how this list can be improved such that it is immune to criticism. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing that it's not a standard that we should apply to other articles. I'm arguing that it should be determined with a broad discussion, not with one article as a test case - how that will pan out is that it'll be applied here, then people will either disagree with or be apathetic about applying it elsewhere, leaving us with a situation where we have more stringent requirements for including content about LGBT people and Jews than any other groups. Wikipedia has enough bias already. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 19:33, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Then it is something we need to push forwards wherever we feel appropriate. That creates the discussion, too. Doing a thing that is difficult but correct is a good thing to do. We have the policies, guidelines and processes already. Wikipedia will always have bias. It is based upon consensus, and consensus is biased because it is consensus. People were and are lynched by consensus. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:38, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * At BLPN, I requested a discussion of articles other than this one where you felt that tighter criteria were needed. I will continue to ask that you include other articles when discussing a perceived necessity for tighter list criteria, and suggest that you perhaps begin a discussion at village pump or another forum where you can start from the ground up without LGBT Jews being the target. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 19:45, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you've seen already my continued attempts at BLPN to ensure this is a wide discussion. I have re-emphasised it there just now. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 20:30, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

jewish criteria for inclusion
How is "jewishness" interpreted for purposes of inclusion? Obviously BLPCAT applies to living members, but there are still lots of gradients/definitions of Jew. Should the person be identifying "As a Jew"? The case that is bringing this up is the recent add (since reverted) of George Michael. He has publicly discussed his maternal grandmonther being Jewish, which makes him Jewish according to Jewish law, but his mother was raised as a Gentile to avoid WWII prosecution see http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-et-georgemichael14-2008jun14,0,3920802.story and also http://www.dailyjews.com/articles/525_jewish_george_michae.htm (Which might qualify as an unambiguous self-identification, if the source is considered reliable. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:01, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Stuart Appelbaum
Editing the refs in this list, I found that Stuart Appelbaum is a redlink today. Previously he was an inline link. The normal rules suggest that such a person ought not to be a list member. His reference, though, shows a notable gentleman. I felt his name worth leaving in order to prompt an article, one I do not have time to write at present. Any takers? Fiddle  Faddle  09:27, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Should everyone from Category:LGBT Jews be included in this list?
What are other editors' thoughts on this? Zumoarirodoka (talk) 22:26, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The list has always seemed to me to be a weird intersection worthy of deletion as an intersection too far. Even the category seems to me to be a category too far. Since it seems to be a desired list then I think everyone shovel be included provided WP:BLP concerns are met in full. Fiddle   Faddle  22:41, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I agree. There's no List of LGBT African Americans or List of LGBT Christians; it is rather peculiar. Zumoarirodoka (talk) 23:26, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The deletion discussion outcomes make interesting reading. You will see that I have nominated it once and contributed in at least one other discussion.. There is no Gay black dentists against nuclear proliferation either. The list and the category are somewhat prurient and, to a great degree, ghettoising. Fiddle   Faddle  23:46, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Anne Frank
Alerted to this by a discussion on the Frank talk page. I've removed the listing here, which is predicated on two sources: a passage from the diary and an article in The Advocate. The former is original research, of course, and I don't think the latter is sufficient, given the vast amount of scholarship on the subject. We need multiple reliable sources for such a claim. Coretheapple (talk) 14:07, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I removed Frank from the list. Sources are not RS especially for a definitive statement that Frank was LGBT. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:07, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * There have been ongoing attempts to claim that Anne Frank was LGBT. See Talk:Anne Frank. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:55, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Leopold & Loeb
The source for this appears to be a (dead linked) Village Voice article about a play. Are there any contemporaneous sources that say Leopold & Loeb were gay? There is speculation regarding this in the form of message board posts and there seems to be a theory behind it, which is why there are plays and fictional movies made about it, but I see no hard evidence to suggest they were gay. If none can be found, they should be removed from the article. Kindzmarauli (talk) 14:21, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I will remove it as nobody has discussed. Kindzmarauli (talk) 17:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 7 one external links on List of LGBT Jews. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061019225648/http://www.glbtq.com/arts/ashman_h.html to http://www.glbtq.com/arts/ashman_h.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061020001845/http://www.glbtq.com/arts/blitzstein_m.html to http://www.glbtq.com/arts/blitzstein_m.html
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061020002939/http://www.glbtq.com/arts/geffen_d.html to http://www.glbtq.com/arts/geffen_d.html

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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 26 one external links on List of LGBT Jews. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20050928130727/http://www.glbtq.com:80/literature/jewish_am_lit,4.html to http://www.glbtq.com/literature/jewish_am_lit,4.html
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061019213853/http://www.glbtq.com/arts/bernstein_l.html to http://www.glbtq.com/arts/bernstein_l.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061020001845/http://www.glbtq.com/arts/blitzstein_m.html to http://www.glbtq.com/arts/blitzstein_m.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061020002500/http://www.glbtq.com/arts/copland_a.html to http://www.glbtq.com/arts/copland_a.html
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061020002939/http://www.glbtq.com/arts/geffen_d.html to http://www.glbtq.com/arts/geffen_d.html

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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 24 one external links on List of LGBT Jews. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20050928130727/http://www.glbtq.com:80/literature/jewish_am_lit,4.html to http://www.glbtq.com/literature/jewish_am_lit,4.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070212021530/http://www.glbtq.com:80/arts/stiller_m.html to http://www.glbtq.com/arts/stiller_m.html
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Red Links
Please do not delete the red links from this list. They indicate that pages for prominent LGBT Jews need creation. It is possible that some folks will want to work on them during Wiki Loves Pride or Art+Feminism events, or any time. Thank you!

RachelWex RachelWex 23:09, 23 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RachelWex (talk • contribs)
 * These kinds of lists aren't intended to name every single Jew who might fit the criteria, but rather notable Jews who fit the criteria. If articles "need creation" then please go ahead and create them. You can then add them to the list. Jayjg (talk) 00:05, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

These are notable Jews. They are firsts, and transpeople, and inventors, and people who are well known in academic circles. As Wikipedia is a collaborative space, and I do a lot of different things, I make people aware of the absences and they can fill in the blanks. I create new pages when I have time. Please keep my work there and do not keep deleting it. RachelWex 13:52, 24 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RachelWex (talk • contribs)

External links modified
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External links modified
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External links modified
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Joshua Rush
Two editors have recently been trying to insert Joshua Rush into this article, using this citation. One of them has even claimed that removing the material is "against policy", though it's hard to imagine what that policy might be. Ignoring the question of whether pinknews.co.uk meets the sourcing requirements for WP:BLP, the citation in question never states that Rush is Jewish. Per BLP, all material in this article must have relevant and reliable citations in this article; can either editor explain why they keep doing this? Jayjg (talk) 17:42, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Just FYI the message you left on my talk page is considered a break of WP:CIVILITY. The repeated claim that a single source must explicitly state that a source is both Jewish *and* Gay before their inclusion on this list is questionable, can you provide the WP policy you believes supports this assertion? It would seem to be enough for a WP to exist about the person and for that page to state (with citation) that the person is both Jewish and Gay. PinkNews is unquestionably a WP:RS. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:53, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I've never made the claim that "a single source must explicitly state that a source is both Jewish *and* Gay before their inclusion on this list". However, at a minimum you would need two sources, one indicating that they are Jewish, the other that they are gay. It's certainly not enough to refer back to the individual's Wikipedia article; please review WP:PROVEIT, which is quite clear that you must include an inline citation, and that this is particularly important for WP:BLP articles. Also, review WP:CIRC, which states you cannot use Wikipedia articles in sources, and explains exactly how they can be used. Note: every link in my comment is to WP policy. Jayjg (talk) 19:01, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * You might need two sources, but given that both religion and sexuality qualify as common biographical information im not sure you need to. In any event the material you removed was sourced to a WP:RS so you should have searched for a source to confirm the subjects Jewishness (very easy to find) and included that. If for instance there were a list of Male Golf Professionals would a source both need to explicitly state that they are a male and that they are a golf professional? Do we really need that for *basic* biographical information? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:14, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * You absolutely 100% need reliable sources for religion and sexuality, per WP:BLP. That's all that has been required. Jayjg (talk) 21:15, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I guess I’m still confused as to why you would delete the material instead of attempting to verify the information when the claim of Jewishness isn’t in any way “contentious” so it wouldn’t appear to warrant immediate removal. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 01:40, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Just about any claim about an individual's religion or ethnicity is contentious; and even a claim that a rabbi is Jewish could be contentious (though it typically isn't). Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality also indicates some relevant principles. And WP:CHALLENGED and WP:BLPREMOVE are very clear that it is the responsibility of the person trying to add the information to ensure that the material is properly sourced; one certainly cannot add unsourced information, and then say "verify it yourself". Jayjg (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:CHALLENGE seems to suggest that there is significant leeway in leaving non-derogatory information up if you believe it to be verifiable. WP:CHALLENGE suggests that it is the responsibility of the person removing or tagging the material to determine whether the information is verifiable, on what grounds did you believe that this information wasn’t readily verifiable?


 * "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. Whether and how quickly material should be initially removed for not having an inline citation to a reliable source depends on the material and the overall state of the article. In some cases, editors may object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references; consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step.[4] When tagging or removing material for lacking an inline citation, please state your concern that it may not be possible to find a published reliable source for the content, and therefore it may not be verifiable.[5] If you think the material is verifiable, you are encouraged to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it.”


 * To the best of my knowledge you never stated a concern about verifiability. I note that this information was never strictly “unsourced” although you can say all the claims in it weren’t fully supported by the source. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:17, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

In fact, the first paragraph of WP:CHALLENGED says "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution."

The bolding is in the original, so this could not be more clear; you were restoring the material, so the burden lay with you. And as no source was provided indicating that Rush was Jewish, that information was always strictly "unsourced". Jayjg (talk) 18:33, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Unsourced yet easily verifiable... But I digress, in the future if you simply tag it as needing additional citation I am following the page and can do the legwork to see if the information is verifiable. Are we in agreement now that Joshua Rush is reliably sourced enough for inclusion on the list? There appears to be at least one IP hopper who disagrees. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:53, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
 * If something is "easily verifiable" then please verify it first before adding it. Tagging is, of course, not good enough when it comes to WP:BLP, and reverting the material back without providing reliable inline sourcing is completely unacceptable, per WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE. I'm fine with the source you've now added. Jayjg (talk) 19:37, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for talking me through it. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:50, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Invasion of Privacy
I don't see how this page is allowed to exist. The use of Queer Theory and the Jewish Question as an excuse for this list to exist even states in its summary that it is not interested in outing "queer Jews". This list outs queer Jews. So the use of a book that's not constantly updated is out. If those individuals on this public list added themselves would be one thing, but to have most likely a stranger feel the need to add someone alive or dead to this list should go against the privacy policy of any website of a user acting in good faith. I read the previous reply to an inferior attempt at pointing out the invasion of basic common expectations of privacy people have. To argue unknowingly that people on this list would be proud to be listed here, prove it. Delete all of the names and allow those individuals to add themselves. It should not be their names are on a list because of their religious beliefs, and sexual orientation without their expressed consent. People would be offended by their name showing up on pretty much any list online without their consent. It should not be anybody's assumption that a person would be okay with being listed because of faith and sexuality. Instead it should be assumed that nobody would be okay with being included in any list that's made public online. Even the book states this is wrong and not its intent, so it should be removed because it does not support this list to exist. Am I LGBT or Jewish? That's the point, it is not anybody's business. If a person wishes to express their religious or sexual orientation in an interview, bravo to them for that. But that is where it should stay, it shouldn't be used for a 3rd party to apply their name to a list without their knowledge. I don't know how Wikipedia has not realized this, but without consent by the individuals it is a flat out invasion of expected privacy. 73.228.222.112 (talk) 00:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)