Talk:List of LGBT characters in radio and podcasts/Archive 1

Unreferenced Characters
I'm slowly attempting to go through the list, and add references where I can. I'm adding the citation needed tag to any characters that lack a reference referring to their (stated) sexuality where I am unable to find a good reference. After going through the list, I'll then proceed to start removing anything tagged with citation needed. Thank you! Ncboy2010 (talk) 11:30, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Also take note: References that refer to the characters sexuality will be placed next to their name, in addition to any statements regarding their sexuality in the notes box. (so there may be some duplication in references.) This is to help avoid the appearance of references (attributed to something else in the notes section about the character, as is the case with Cassie Ainsworth, who has a character description with nothing referring to her alleged bisexuality.) Ncboy2010 (talk) 11:33, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Merge
A much more comprehensive and thorough list already seems to exist: List of LGBT characters in film, radio, and TV fiction. 207.6.226.131 (talk) 00:39, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No longer applies due to that being split and merged here. – anemone projectors – 17:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Layout - alphabetical?
The article is getting a little unwieldy thanks to the sheer number of entries. What do editors think about following the List of LGBT characters in film and radio fiction format and listing them alphabetically instead of by orientation? AD (talk) 22:38, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal
There is an overlap of information between this, more inclusive article, and List of bisexual characters in television. I propose moving everything from that article in this one. Another option would be to do a full split, where all bisexual characters be moved to the sub article so there's no doubling up. Thoughts, anyone? AD (talk) 11:06, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that article should be merged here. – anemone projectors – 17:20, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I just looked at the history of List of LGBT characters in television. It seems that an editor was in the process of splitting this article into sub articles - presumably for gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans characters. There might be some value in that, seeing as this article is really long now. AD (talk) 00:17, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh right. I don't know how helpful that is because quite often a character can have an undefined of fluid sexuality. Then again, this is sectioned out that way anyway... I think it's ok as it is though, probably not too long right now. – anemone projectors – 16:59, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, fair enough. It's been a week since I proposed it, so I'll get on with merging. AD (talk) 03:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Only one character needed merging? And in that case it was only references? Wow, it was definitely right to merge then. – anemone projectors – 10:30, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Lily Aldrin? Seriously? Dalia?!
I have watched this entire series (several times) and Lily Aldrin is not bisexual. She has a girl crush on Robin and it sometimes plays out in her fantasies. But she has never acted on this beyond occasionally flirting with Robin, her best friend, when she drinks martinis. It's a big leap from having a same-sex fantasy to being identified as bisexual. I think it requires one to have an actual sexual encounter (beyond a kiss when you're drunk).

If all it took to be "bisexual" was to have a fantasy about a person of the same-sex, most people would be classified as bisexual.

If you check List of situation comedies with LGBT characters, you will not find Lily Aldrin on it. You also won't find Dalia from Suburgatory who is not a lesbian. This is a superficial character who constantly goes after the most popular boys in school. It is a quite a stretch to identify her as a lesbian.

Personally, I don't care what sexual orientation a fictional character has. I just think your list has some inaccuracies. You should really look at other LGBT lists on Wikipedia because yours is far off the mark. (plus Willow Rosenberg is not in alphabetical order). You also only include two characters from Oz when there is a lot more same-sex sex going on on that show than between those two characters. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 17:06, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Removed now, thanks. AD (talk) 01:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

LGBT or BGLT ??
Just curious: if the widely-accepted acronym is LGBT -- shouldn’t the categories in the article be arranged in the same order?

Lesbian

Gay

Bisexual

Transgender

Pyxis Solitary (talk) 08:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There doesn't seem to be a guideline on this, feel free to switch it around, I reckon. AD (talk) 07:03, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Culling
I propose removing items that are unreferenced. Please reply here and let me know your thoughts. Understand any items removed can (and should) be re-added with proper references. Thanks and happy editing! Ncboy2010 (talk) 01:25, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I would propose finding sources for those that are missing rather than removing content, as a majority of the items are unreferenced. It would be unproductive to just gut the article. If you want to improve it, reference it rather than remove. Teammm  $talk email$ 02:29, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * If there's a few series that are primarily unsourced, we can go to that series' talk page and ask for refs. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:40, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Removed Characters
I have removed Katherine Mayfair from the 'Bisexual' section, as she eventually comes back to the show after leaving, realising that she is not attracted to women. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.105.183 (talk) 20:59, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposed change
I have started a discussion of a proposed change to this and similar pages that can be found on the LGBT Studies Project talk page. In short, I am proposing to expand the scope of the page from solely "gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered" to "non-heterosexual or non-cisgender". Please join the conversation and comment here. Cheers! EvergreenFir (talk) 21:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Need Someone To Weigh In
I have made a lot of contributions lately, primarily to the Bisexual section, and I put them in alphabetical order of T.V. show to make them more user friendly. I feel my content was not justifiably deleted. I could add descriptions to each character to explain why they're bisexual and I could put the other sections of the article in alphabetical order, if need be, but that would give me more work than other editors of the page just because one person doesn't like my contributions (according to the person on his/her user talk page). I know I could be in the wrong, but I'd like to hear input from someone else.PoisonOnHisLips (talk) 23:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Hello. An anonymous user deleted everything you added without an explanation. You are right, that is not "justifiably deleted". If someone contests what you have added, then they should say so on this talk page when they delete it. I restored what you added. I have no comment about whether your content should be here, and I only restored it because it was deleted without explanation and because you asked for it to stand.
 * This talk page is a great place for anyone to post their objections to what you did, and for you to answer any objections which anyone posts.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  20:19, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Cassandra O'Brien
I've watched the two Doctor Who episodes that feature this character dozens of time and there was never any indication that the character was transgender or DMAB. But I wanted to ask about it here before removing it from the list. Liz Read! Talk! 01:08, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Clara Paget
I've undone the addition (again) adding Clara Paget to the list for her portrayal of Anne Bonny. There's no evidence that Bonny way bisexual and any suggestion along those lines is a construct of the writers of Black Sails. That's fine, of course, but to date the character's supposed bisexuality has been the subject of (I think) one episode and a threesome. Having a threesome doesn't make someone a bisexual. No objection to her being added (at all) but adding her for a single event (possibly two) is a bit premature. No need to rush to add every actor/character who has an on-screen same-sex embrace.  St ★ lwart 1 1 1 07:38, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2015
Adam Horowitz, the writer of Once Upon A Time has confirmed numerous times that what does not air on the show, is not canon. There has been no canon proof that Regina Mills and Maleficent have ever had a romantic relationship. This is the view/opinion of actress Kristen Bauer. Regina and Maleficent do not fall under this category in canon storyline. Regina and Maleficent's romantic relationship is speculation by the actress. There has never been any aired canon proof that this took place, or any confirmation from the writers themselves. Until it does, they do not count as LGBT. Please double check this, as this information is incorrect. An actresses opinion/view does not equal actual canon events.

101.186.23.72 (talk) 08:07, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Links to this? Also, in this case, Mulan probably wouldn't be canon either. Many of A&E's statements contradict. Also, what we saw on the show was open to interpretation. Before KVS answered "Yes", she explained her action choices. The implication here was that this is what the show was trying to show - albeit subtly, and one of the actresses involved confirmed this. The actors are generally given an official line from the showrunners and can't deviate from it. If What KVS said was false, A&E would have come out against it. Your only intention here is to erase queerness from the show. In many cases writers and producers are restricted for what they can say outright. It's more complicated than you're making it out to be. We get so little in terms of representation in this genre and you want to blot it out, and I think that's a real problem that warrants discussion in of itself.Little Miss Desu (talk) 15:16, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: - for one thing, you didn't request an edit, just that someone should "double check this". No, double check it yourself and provide references. Second, there is clearly no consensus for what I have to guess at is the change you want to make. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:30, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Once Upon A Time
I removed Regina Mills because it has been confirmed by the creators of the show once upon a time ethat she is not Bi or Gay and there is no proof that she ever has been, the actress who said it was just speculating on her relationship with her character. Again the creators had said this themselves that she is not gay or bi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ouatfan4life (talk • contribs)
 * The Creators have never said this. This point is based entirely in heteronormativity, which should show the bias this editor has against the idea. The actor was not speculating. She was asked if Regina and Maleficent were in a relationship, and after explaining her acting choices, she said, in a word, Yes. People knew full well the context of that "relationship" from previous tweets from the actor. Plus, actors tend to be given official lines to take from the show. Unless the showrunners outright contradict her, it should be treated as canon.Little Miss Desu (talk) 03:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There's apparently a content dispute about this. I agree it should not be included. Just "had a relationship" does not necessarily mean bi or gay.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; 02:22, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. That criteria has been used for many of the other entries. Characters in fictional media rarely self identify in the way real people do so we have to take these cues. There is a real problem with bi erasure in particular that you seem completely oblivious to. A bisexual person is someone who experiences attraction towards two or more genders. The actress of one of the characters in this relationship confirms there was an attraction, and a relationship. I'm unsure what sort of criteria you would put on a character being bisexual. Creators shouldn't have to come out with official statements every time. We have a situation here where we have an unambiguous Yes and it's still not enough to combat erasure.Little Miss Desu (talk) 03:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Avoid the personal attacks... I assure you I know about bierasure. That said, there are thinks like heteroflexability. But you're right that other items are included on this list using the same criteria... Hm. I guess if we include Bubbline, we should include this.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; 03:43, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't include anything unless it's published by a reliable source. If we're speculating on a character's orientation based solely on their in-universe demeanour, that's 100% original research. Surely there can be sources found for this. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:35, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that one past dalliance with Maleficent automatically makes Regina Bi, but that's really neither here nor there. Mulan definitely shouldn't be listed as Bi, thoufh,because she decidedly and canonically isnt (as per actress Jamie Chung).§ — Preceding unsigned comment added by DigificWriter (talk • contribs) 19:10, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Jude Adams Foster - The Fosters
As I was going through the list, I noticed Jude wasn't listed. I assumed he was left out because the character had issue with accepting labels and was uncomfortable with being identified as gay. However in the season three episode "More Than Words" Jude acknowledged his sexuality when he approached Connor and said "Hi, I'm Jude, and I'm gay." So with that quote from the series I have added Jude to the gay characters section. Kweerios (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:34, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

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Pansexual characters not specifically described as being pansexual
Just because a character says in an episode that they are "attracted to people", or any variation of the comment, is not enough to categorize him/her as "pansexual". You can be emotionally attracted to both males and females, but not also have sexual attraction for both sexes. There's also being demisexual — which some might confuse with pansexual if the only thing you have to go by is assumption.

Bisexual vs. Pansexual: what is portrayed in episodes — what we actually see — takes precedence over an editor's interpretation. Per Identifying reliable sources: if a character in an episode/s is portrayed as being romantic with both sexes (in the past or present), or going on dates with both males and females, or flirting with both males and females, or being sexual with both males and females, or having had sexual relations (or dates) in the past only with the opposite sex but now with the same sex ... they are bisexual unless they come out as another specific orientation (example: Dr. Sydney Katz in Saving Hope), or a reliable and verifiable source confirms they are actually otherwise. Please, let's keep this list real. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 00:35, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Saying 'attracted to people' can also be taken as not caring if someone is black, white, brown, asian, young, old, abled, disabled, thin, heavy, wealthy, or poor. The phrase can have no relation to what pansexuality is which wikipedia defines as 'the sexual, romantic or emotional attraction towards people regardless of their sex or gender identity.' Personal agenda can also be a problem with some editors and LGBT subjects. 2A00:1838:37:150:0:0:0:A35C (talk) 02:38, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. I, myself, have said "I don't care who or what they are" when talking about getting to know a person, but when it comes to sexual attraction it has always been and still remains women only. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 05:52, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Deletion of characters and transfers to Pansexual section
Between 13:48, 13 June – 04:18, 14 June, the following 7 characters were deleted from the list and 9 others moved from their listed orientation to /* Pansexual */ :

Deleted (7):

Moved to Pansexual (9):
 * Lily Aldrin – How I Met Your Mother
 * Quinn Fabray – Glee
 * Paige Michalchuk – Degrassi: The Next Generation
 * Amy Raudenfeld – Faking It
 * Eleanor Shellstrop – The Good Place
 * Brook Soso – Orange is the New Black
 * Ilana Wexler – Broad City


 * Kristina Davis – General Hospital
 * Dorian Gray – Penny Dreadful
 * Captain John Hart – Torchwood
 * Sammy Lieberman – Dance Academy
 * Joe MacMillan – Halt and Catch Fire
 * Oberyn Martell – Game of Thrones
 * Eric Northman – True Blood
 * Inara Serra – Firefly
 * Frank Underwood – House of Cards

There was no attempt to find consensus. No edit summaries were provided except to dismiss the reinstatement of characters -- which the editor again deleted from the page. Maggie Lin from Saving Hope was also deleted, I restored her, then same editor re-deleted her, and I restored her again today. (Update: editor deleted Maggie Lin again @ 17:20, June 15, 2017.)

It is contrary to the spirit and policies of Wikipedia for any editor to treat an article with ownership. No editor can run roughshod over any article.

If other editors have no objection, I will restore the deleted characters within 24 hours. The characters moved to the Pansexual section need to be corroborated as being so, and the new additions to the section need to checked and verified per WP:ORIGINAL. Input from editors is welcomed. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 09:58, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It does not automatically follow that if a person doesn't specifically define their sexual attractions as "men and women to the exclusion of people who define their gender outside of the binary", then they're automatically pansexual rather than bisexual — and neither does it automatically follow that pan inherently trumps bi if the person hasn't specifically pinned down their label as bi. Especially for fictional characters, if they don't use a specific word for themselves then we can only judge their sexuality by relationships present in the work itself, and not by extrapolating what might happen in a piece of fanfic.
 * For example, Frank Underwood has never, ever been depicted in the HoC canon as having a sexual interest in a transgender or non-binary character — and neither, for that matter, has he ever been depicted as particularly conscious of non-binary conceptions of gender in the first place. So there's no textual reason to believe that just because he defines his sexuality as "if I'm attracted to someone I'm attracted to them period", that automatically connotes pan rather than bi — at no point in the show has he ever been depicted as being aware of the concept that there are more than just two genders.
 * And similarly, Quinn Fabray from Glee definitely doesn't belong here either under any section. While there's certainly been fan analysis of queer subtext in her love/hate relationship with Rachel Berry, at no point in the show itself did it ever enter Ryan Murphy's written canon as an established fact about her. She admittedly did get her jiggy on with Santana in one episode, but people can and do experiment sexually outside of their normal orientation — however, until they tell us otherwise it's not for us to assume whether they're bisexual and closeted, or just tried it and found that it didn't float their boat and are fundamentally still straight or gay. So until a source can be found that canonically establishes that Quinn identified herself as bi in universe, it was actually correct to remove her.
 * At any rate, while it does seem to be the case that today's young queers are largely rejecting bi as a label and shifting to pan instead, while leaving bi to the older ones who were identifying that way before pan emerged, it does not follow that bi automatically connotes a rejection of transgender or non-binary partners. The bi-identified people I've known have always been quite conscious of gender theory, and open to trans or non-binary partners — so while that obviously doesn't perfectly describe everyone under the bi umbrella, it describes more than enough people that you simply cannot assume that a bi-identified person is locked into the traditional gender binary and closed off to anything genderqueer. In fact, I quite recently saw a work that analyzed why the label "bisexual" is not inherently in conflict with non-binary conceptions of gender, and its way of defining the term made quite a lot of sense: "homo = attracted to genders like mine; hetero = attracted to genders unlike mine; bi = attracted to genders both like and unlike mine". Virtually all bisexual community organizations, further, define the term bi as connoting "same-sex and different-sex" rather than "male and female" per se — and even our article on pansexuality consists mostly of documenting the debate about whether pansexual and bisexual are conflicting labels or not. Accordingly, one way of resolving this dispute might be to combine bi and pan into a single section (with a short introduction clarifying the terms) rather than keeping them separate and constantly editwarring over which one applies to Frank Underwood. It would be an WP:NPOV violation for us to take our own editorial position in the debate about whether "bisexual" is mutually contradictory with non-binary conceptions of gender or not. Bearcat (talk) 15:21, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I reinstated the characters except for Quinn Fabray. Someone with more knowledge about the series involved and what has transpired in them needs to double-check the Pansexual section for accuracy. I don't agree that the bisexual and pansexual sections should be combined. Doing so takes us down the slippery slope of bi-erasure. Wikipedia should be the last place where this is supported.  Pyxis Solitary (talk) 07:12, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
 * How on earth would that constitute any form of bisexual erasure? Bearcat (talk) 23:09, 26 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Over one month later to comment? At this point my reply is: talk to bisexuals about it. Or do some research. You might learn something. Pyxis Solitary  talk 06:27, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm quite well educated on the concept already, thanks — it's not that I'm unfamiliar with the term means, it's that I don't see how it applies in this situation. Bisexual erasure would be demonstrated by removing bisexuals from the list, not by simply combining them with another list for which there's dispute about whether the terms even mean anything different or not. Bearcat (talk) 14:50, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

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Editors deleting categories from TV series that include LGBT characters
I'm bringing this to everyone's attention. Maybe it's because some editors are unfamiliar with everything about a TV series, or maybe it's just plain 'ol homophobia (I don't want to believe it's the latter), but some editors have been removing categories, one or more, from TV articles that acknowledge the inclusion of LGBT characters. The following categories are used to identify a TV series that includes one or more L/G/B/T characters: Category:Lesbian-related television programmes, Category:Gay-related television programs, Category:Bisexuality-related television series, Category:Transgender-related television programs.

One way to push-back is with sources that confirm the orientation of characters. Which is why it's so important that this list include citations supporting a character being Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Asexual, Non-binary, Pansexual.

Examples of category removals: Brooklyn Nine-Nine, The Walking Dead, My Family. These three series include gay male characters. Pyxis Solitary talk 07:07, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

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Templates and template limits
Templates in /Transgender/ section exceeded the limits of MediaWiki and affected the behavior of and. To solve the problem, I replaced the template   with  [Citation needed:January 2018] . I also added a hidden message in the section explaining why the "citation needed" template cannot be used. Pyxis Solitary talk 07:06, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Organization
Considering changing the page so that the characters are organized (by sexuality) alphabetically by show/media instead of by last name to make the page more user friendly and less generally messy, opinions? BradBigboy (talk) 15:31, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The list is already organized alphabetically (A-B-G-L-N-P-T) by sexual orientation (Asexual, Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian, Non-binary, Pansexual, Transgender) and within this organization the characters for each section are organized by their surnames (i.e. last names) or first name if there is no surname. The only "mess" ever created are those made by editors who don't bother to read the lead paragraph, don't know what alphabetization means, and don't care to follow the example of existing rows. Personally, and from the first time I discovered this list, I've never considered it "messy" and not being "user friendly". All lists must comply with the MoS for lists. Structural changes made to existing Wikipedia articles, including lists, must be based on consensus. No individual editor can change the layout and formatting without obtaining input from other editors and reaching said consensus. I suggest you follow the rules and create an RfC. Pyxis Solitary  talk 23:28, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Propose new categories to the table
This article or table would be more helpful if there were categories that asigned a particular type of genre; national origin; time period of the show's broadcasting; and, the type of media (since this is television and radio). Right how, it's all jumbled together, and it's difficult to sort it out and analyze one show relative to another over generations in time.

How do we realize the hidden biases in this list if we don't know if many of these shows are "current" verus being off the air and in the near past, or several generatons removed?

It's also difficult to determine how many of these are or were lead, main, recurring, supporting, and guest; and, in how many episodes they appeared, and how long they were even on screen.

For some people, it might also be of interest to know how many of these character or shows are written by LGBTQ writers, featuring real LGBTQ actors. How many of these roles were portrayed favorably or not about LGBTQ life and people, while also considering who played the role, and who wrote it?

Furthermore, what would be the difference between a "List of LGBT characters in television and radio" verus a "List of television shows with LGBT characters", and then keeping radio and podcast on a separate list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.3.162.39 (talk) 21:36, 2 September 2018 (UTC)


 * This is a list for characters. It is not a list for the series, mini-series, tv movie, or radio program a character appears in. I oppose the addition of categories for the multitude of genres and other program-specific data. If a reader wants to know what a particular television or radio program is/was, they can follow the link in the "Show" column for the article about the program. All the information regarding a television program (be it a series, mini-series, movie) and radio program is included in the individual article for the program — that's where content about genre, actors, roles, themes, writers, producers, national origin, time period, network, release date, seasons, and media is contained. Nothing about this list is "jumbled together". It is organized in an orderly fashion by sexual orientation, name of character, name of actor that plays/played the character, name of program, and any relevant notation about the character (it is the responsibility of editors to provide descriptions about characters and/or reliable sources that support their inclusion in the list). If a reader wants to know how many of the programs are "written by LGBTQ writers, featuring real LGBTQ actors" they can find it in the articles about the individual programs — but only if the information is relevant to the creation/production of the program ; if it's not included and this type of information is relevant, and there are reliable, published sources that support including the information ... then the information and sources for it can be added by editors (like yourself). If a writer or actor has a Wikipedia biographical article about her/him, then whatever pertinent information exists about that person should appear in their biography if it's verified by reliable published sources. The policy for biographies of living persons is strictly enforced and if you, for example, know that a writer is lesbian, but she has not made public comments about her personal, private life, and there are no reliable published sources that have reported on her personal, private life ... you cannot add such content to their biography. This list is strictly for the names of characters, their sexual orientation, and the program they appear/appeared in. For names of programs that include LGBT/ANP characters, the lists are:
 * List of animated works with LGBT characters
 * List of comedy television series with LGBT characters
 * List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters
 * List of made-for-television films with LGBT characters
 * List of soap operas with LGBT characters
 * List of television series with bisexual characters
 * There is a film and television list for transgender characters:
 * List of transgender characters in film and television
 * For video games, there is:
 * List of video games with LGBT characters
 * For LGBT actors, there is:
 * List of comedy and variety television programs with LGBT cast members
 * There are LGBT radio-related categories: Category:LGBT-related radio stations, Category:LGBT-related radio programs
 * For LGBT themes in U.S. television, there is:
 * Lists of American television episodes with LGBT themes
 * This list is one of the many sub-chapters in the LGBT "section" of the encyclopedia. Pyxis Solitary   yak  10:03, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Clara Oswald/Jane Austen edits
As I am editing anonymously I know some IP edits get reverted without review, so just noting here that I revised the Jane Austen and Clara Oswald sections referencing the TV series Doctor Who, adding references to specific episodes and rewording to specify that the relationship is off-screen and only implied as per the televised episodes, and also adding (episode-confirmed) details relating to the Doctor and Clara. Everything is sourced, so should be OK. 136.159.160.5 (talk) 21:09, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * You do not understand what a "source" is. For citation purposes, Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and you cannot use a Wikipedia article as a source. A reliable source is an independent, third-party source. However, when you state an episode within the descriptions of characters — e.g. Jane Doe says in episode "XYZ ".... — you can link the episode's Wikipedia article in the description: e.g. " XYZ  ". Pyxis Solitary   yak  05:14, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Dean winchester
Many media reports and fan related interpretations describe dean winchester from supernatural as possibly bisexual. On the characters main page an edit war section regarding sexuality of the character was carried out off-site. Their is evidence for rife speculation on the character sexuality e.g.  dated woman,  his relationship with castiel , wore woman's underwear etc. I'm just wondering why they isn't a section for possible lgbt characters. Could dean really be bi.? Not that I care cos I ain't gay or bisexual, I mean i don't watch tv or film because of representation and SJW issues but rather because I just want to be entertained. Sjw are annoying. Hpdh4 20:03, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Proposal: alphabetical order by first name
Unless a character is known in a series as "Mrs. XYZ" – "Mr. XYZ" – "Madam X", in which case for the purpose of this list the name would be alphabetized by Mrs. – Mr. – Madam, most people remember characters by their first name. So, I wonder if it would make more sense to change the alphabetical order of names from surname (i.e. last name) to first name. Those characters that do not include surnames in the series are already alphabetized by first name only. What do others think about making this change? Pyxis Solitary  (yak). L not Q. 10:28, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I guess its too late to voice opposition to this now, as you are dedicated to it. I would say that dates of the shows should be included. Otherwise, it does not align with other pages and makes it hard for people to find the characters.--Historyday01 (talk) 13:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * When you go to a library to find information about a name, you don't search for date of birth, death, or any other date -- you search for the name. The problem with many editors is that they don't put themselves in the readers shoes. Wikipedia provides a service for the general public -- not for the editors of Wikipedia. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 16:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok. I still think there should be a category for dates (it could be near the end). All the other lists of LGBT characters have dates. Why not have a column for dates? Not everyone is going to search for something the same way. --Historyday01 (talk) 18:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)


 * @ Pyxis Solitary, here is an example of where the years would be added, from an entry on the List of fictional intersex characters page:


 * {| class="sortable wikitable" style="margins:auto; width=100%;"

! style="width:200px"|Characters ! style="width:200px"|Portrayed By ! style="width:225px;"|Show ! style="width:75px;"|Years ! style="width:500px;"|Notes


 * - valign="top"
 * Amy || Jessica Campbell || Freaks and Geeks || 1999-2000 || Amy, girlfriend of Ken Miller in teen comedy/drama TV series, was said to be a groundbreaking intersex character on television.


 * }


 * Historyday01 (talk) 20:03, 26 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Instead of adding a column that creates an onus on the inclusion of years -- or if not done the column remains blank -- the year or years can be added in parentheses at the end of the character description. As it stands, far too many good faith editors fail to include reliable sources when they add characters and descriptions (and this goes for every list). Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 01:52, 27 June 2020 (UTC)


 * That could work. Historyday01 (talk) 02:54, 27 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Whaaaaaat?!?! We reached a middle-ground!!! ┗ ( ･o･) ┓ Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 04:33, 27 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm willing to reach a middle-ground, of course. I tried to reach a middle ground in that one discussion about changing programmes/programs in categories to shows, but the OP never agreed unfortunately. Also, @ Pyxis Solitary, I thought I'd happily report that I'm switching all the pages I created/often edit over to the alphabetical by last name format, finishing up with the List of fictional lesbian characters, List of lesbian characters in animation, and List of fictional intersex characters, along with a bunch of other list pages. I change my mind about alphabetizing the characters. It makes sense. I still like the dates to be included, personally, so I'll include them. At some point I should probably go through the main page and find sources for stuff, but I'm going to put that on the back burner until I finish up some of these other pages. --Historyday01 (talk) 16:50, 28 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I have to bite my tongue about that proposal to move programmes/programs to shows. But something always good comes out of every setback: those of us who weren't familiar with her "style" learned what kind of person the OP is. "switching all the pages I created/often edit over to the alphabetical by last name format" -- good idea, and a huge undertaking that intimidates most editors. I'm still thinking this particular list may benefit from being alphabetized by first name, because so many TV and radio characters aren't given last names.  Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 03:10, 29 June 2020 (UTC)


 * That's true. Perhaps doing it by first name could work. I used the following phrase on the pages I just updated today: "The names are organized alphabetically  by surname  (i.e. last name), or by single name if the character does not have a surname. If more than two characters are in one entry, the last name of the first character is used." Now, I will probably break a lot of those two character entries into single entries, but it seems to work for the time being. Onward to creating a page for fictional gay characters, using some information from this page of course. --Historyday01 (talk) 03:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Gay men are not well represented in Wikipedia with their own lists (Category:Lists of LGBT-related people, Category:Homosexuality-related lists). They deserve equal time. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 12:29, 29 June 2020 (UTC)


 * @ Pyxis Solitary, the page, List of fictional gay characters has been created! Still adding more to it all the time, but its good I created it. Historyday01 (talk) 16:30, 29 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I agree that your creating it is good. There are a zillion more fictional Gay characters -- right now this list, alone, contains 543 names. The fictional list will explode as soon as editors discover it and start adding names. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 12:16, 30 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Exactly! There are a lot more gay characters on this list, without a doubt. For now, I'm going through all the pages about animated characters and providing more sourcing, but this page will be next. Historyday01 (talk) 12:39, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Possible sources I just discovered
So, I was looking for some sources today and I stumbled upon this one. Its a thesis about gay and lesbian representation in popular media. It seems to focus on the following shows:


 * Modern Family


 * The Fosters


 * How to Get Away with Murder


 * The New Normal

I mean, this person even transcribed parts of episodes. Now, that's what I call dedication! Here's how it can be cited:

Also, as general reference (it mainly talks about representation in a broad sense then talking about specific shows), this source perhaps:

This increase can be seen in the introduction of gay characters on many shows such as Spin City, ER, Dawson's Creek, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer, as well as shows that focus on gay characters in leading roles such as Will and Grace and It's All Relative. In addition, cable stations have included shows such as Queer as Folk, Six Feet Under, and Oz that depict gay characters in more complex plot lines and with more explicit sexual behaviors...Many of these afternoon/early evening reality shows such as Blind Date, Ex-Treme Dating, and Road Rules contained nonheterosexual content. A second reason is that the situation comedy Will and Grace, which almost always has nonheterosexual content, was broadcast only during prime-time in year 1, but it appeared as a syndicated afternoon/early evening show as well as a prime-time series in the year 2 sample...The relative infrequency of nonheterosexual content on television may be partially offset by the publicity received by the few shows with prominent gay characters (e.g., Will and Grace, Ellen, Queer as Folk, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). However, gay, lesbian, and bisexual youth still have few examples of nonheterosexual characters, especially if they do not have access to cable or satellite television.

Feel free to use one or both of these to update the main page. FYI @User:Pyxis Solitary and @User:Isaidnoway...and anyone else who edits this page. Also, there's apparently a book titled "Internet Lesbian and Gay Television Series, 1996-2014" which could be used as a source, although I'm still trying to find a library copy. Historyday01 (talk) 15:40, 10 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Theses are used as citations in many articles. This seems like an acceptable source. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 10:06, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Great! I was looking through some GLAAD reports and these shows (I didn't capitalize a lot of the titles, but they should be easy to find in a wiki/internet search) popped up, all of which have LGBTQ characters, which don't currently have entries on the main page:


 * Emily's Reasons Why Not, Half & Half, Inconceivable (TV series), Love Monkey, Kitchen Confidential (TV series), Twins (TV series), The Life and Times of Vivienne Vyle, Hidden Palms, Commander in Chief (TV series), Big Brother (American TV series), Men in Trees, To Love and Die, The Kill Point, Greek (TV series), Jekyll (TV series), The Riches, Do Not Disturb (TV series), Privileged (TV series), Rules of Engagement (TV series), 30 Rock, Knight Rider (2008 TV series), Raising the Bar (2008 TV series), Transamerican Love Story, The Young and the Restless, Outlaw (TV series), The Whole Truth (TV series), Undercovers (TV series), Running Wilde, $h*! My Dad Says, Hellcats, Degrassi: The Boiling Point, Rubicon (TV series), GCB (TV series), Single Ladies (TV series), Scandal (TV series), Mistresses (American TV series), Malibu Country, The Carrie Diaries (TV series), Go On (TV series), The Secret Life of the American Teenager, Emily Owens, M.D., Super Fun Night, Seed (TV series), Camp (TV series), Switched at Birth (TV series), Necessary Roughness (TV series), House of Cards (American TV series), Hemlock Grove (TV series), Fresh Meat (TV series), Backstrom (TV series), Red Band Society, The Following, Mulaney, Crossbones (TV series), One Big Happy (TV series), Marry Me (American TV series), Undateable, Masters of Sex, Witches of East End (TV series), East Los High, Recovery Road (TV series), The Bastard Executioner, Shameless (American TV series), Big Freedia: Queen of Bounce,General Hospital, Instinct (American TV series), Heathers (TV series), Daytime Divas, The Red Line (TV series), Now Apocalypse, The Bisexual, Step Up (TV series), Twenties (TV series), Why Women Kill, High School Musical: The Musical: The Series, and Dickinson (TV series)

So...if anyone knows about these shows, feel free to add them, because the only one I know of is "The Red Line" because I remember watching the first episode. Otherwise, I may try and add these in, without using GLAAD reports, because, well, I think I used them enough at this point! At some point in the future, I'll revise the sourcing on the page, adding archiveurl/archivedate, but I'm gonna work on the animated characters first. Historyday01 (talk) 20:04, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you collapse that long list so that it doesn't overwhelm the talk page? Thanks. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 06:49, 25 July 2020 (UTC)::
 * Yeah, sure. Historyday01 (talk) 14:34, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

For future addition: Green Lantern
When Green Lantern on HBO Max, begins, add this in: In this series, the first Green Lantern on Earth, is openly gay, like in the Earth-2 comics. (original edit by Historyday01; 01:24, 21 October 2020‎).

I guess? I didn't really see an issue with keeping it in the hidden section. I mean it's not like it was doing anyone harm there, but whatever. Historyday01 (talk) 13:09, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Page size
This article has 462,217 bytes of markup; that's far too large. The page should be split into several parts. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:19, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Splitting out radio characters to their own article might help a tiny bit. Also, dropping anything that's still uncited. pauli133 (talk) 21:37, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree. The combination of television and radio is always strange and I'm not sure why they were combined in the first place. There's a lot of stuff that's uncited. I've been meaning to go through the page and add sources, but its such a big effort that I haven't devoted time to it at this point. --Historyday01 (talk) 22:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Spin radio and podcast into its own list. That's easy. As for "dropping anything that's still uncited": that would eliminated probably 75% of the names on the list. What this list is about, and how the information is gathered, needs to be taken into consideration -- many television series do not/did not receive a lot of media attention, which translates into the LGBT characters in them also not being spotlighted. We depend on editors who discover a character to add it to the list, and we depend on the interest of editors to make this list possible. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 02:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Pyxis Solitary, that was my thought too. Before moving uncited material, I think there should be an effort to go through, section by section to add sources to those uncited entries. I'd imagine there are sources available, but they just haven't been added yet. Historyday01 (talk) 02:16, 13 January 2021 (UTC)


 * When I found this list, I dedicated a considerable amount of time to searching for and adding sources. It's very time consuming. Those series that have been off the air for years pose particular hurdles because if there were no articles published about an LGBT character, or even a media comment about it, we will never unearth what doesn't exist. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 02:31, 13 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Hmm, well that is definitely a hurdle. I'll try to work on it a little this week and see if I can find anything. Historyday01 (talk) 04:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Having everything is a great goal, but remember that we're looking for verifiability, not truth - if there are no sources supporting a claim, we shouldn't be including it. pauli133 (talk) 18:50, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Pauli133, I agree in theory, but removing that content at this present time is not advisable and would be an action which violates WP:CON, among other rules, as such a removal would need an agreement of everyone here. Historyday01 (talk) 19:19, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

- I also agree it's too large, it's now at 489,000 bytes and will continue to grow, especially if citations start being added, which will be more bytes than the current cn tags. So it needs to be split. Other potential solutions to consider are reducing the amount of overly detailed text in the Notes column, they contribute a significant amount of bytes, also removing excessive citations for some entries. But I think splitting the article right now would be the best solution. If everyone is in agreement, let's do it. Isaidnoway (talk) 01:06, 24 January 2021 (UTC) On 13:40, 25 June 2020, the Asexual characters section was added to the list. On 19:58, 26 June 2020, the Intersex characters section was added. The Asexual and Intersex sections need to be spun off. That would be a first step. User:Historyday01 created his own list, List of television series with lesbian characters, on 00:57, 20 June 2020; the List of television series with bisexual characters was created on 12:42, 3 May 2017 by User:PanagiotisZois. However, the emphasis of those lists is placed on the year (column 1) and title (column 2) of a series -- whereas the emphasis of  this  list is on the names of characters. On 10:33, 24 January 2006 the List of transgender characters in film and television was created by User:Dlloyd -- with the emphasis on the names of characters. There is no "List of gay characters in television series" or "...in film and television". Based on the purpose and format of the List of transgender characters in film and television, I think it would make sense to incorporate the Transgender section of this list into that list, with a "Please see" template added to guide readers to it. I agree that the descriptions need to be short and sweet. They should be copyedited to make the writing tighter and eliminate redundancies. Pyxis Solitary  (yak). L not Q. 05:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Isaidnoway, I agree it should be split, but I also think every section should be gone through to add citations first, because when the page gets split off, those citations will have to be added anyway. I did start going through the page, but it will take some time. I'd like to hear what others have to say about this. Historyday01 (talk) 03:15, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure, I agree with adding citations first before splitting. I just wanted to make sure splitting the article had consensus when the time comes. As it stands right now, there are over 900 citation needed tags in the article (819 cn tags dated July 2019), a rough estimate of adding that many citations would be equivalent to adding approximately 150,000 - 200,000 bytes, which would put the article size at over 600,000 bytes. I will help with adding citations. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:56, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Isaidnoway, currently there are 821 citation needed tags, by my count (including over 90 in the section for lesbian characters), and that's even after improving the lesbian characters section. So I'll try to add to those too. --Historyday01 (talk) 16:38, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * This list was originally created in 2012 as List of LGBT characters in television and radio. That was it.
 * Pyxis Solitary, you make a valid point and I'd support moving off the sections for asexual and intersex sections, with the proviso that the same happens with with gay characters, creating a page titled something like List of gay characters in television series. Ultimately, I'd say that the content from the bisexual characters section should be moved to the List of television series with bisexual characters page, the lesbian characters should be moved to the List of television series with lesbian characters page, and the transgender characters should be moved to the List of transgender characters in film and television. However, due to the number of radio shows (including podcasts) on the main page, I would say that the page should be renamed List of LGBT characters in radio and restricted to radio and podcast shows, and have a format like this:


 * I think that would be better than keeping the existing name, which I'm not keen on, to be honest, as it seems strange to mix TV and radio shows together. I can understand why it was originally done, because radio and TV shows are both forms of broadcasting, but the shows are not the same. In terms of the List of television series with lesbian characters and List of television series with bisexual characters focusing on the TV series rather than names of characters, I don't see that as a problem in the sense that the entry for the characters can be the same, but it would be organized by the duration of the series rather than on the characters. Similarly, just as the List of animated series with LGBTQ characters page focuses on the series themselves rather than the characters. Also, the List of transgender characters in film and television page combines characters in film and television I think because there aren't that many trans characters in either. However, per WP:SIZESPLIT, a page is only split when it is over 100 kB, and the page is currently 103.59 Kb (or 103,590 bytes), so it should be split into something like the List of transgender characters in film and List of transgender characters in television series, but I'd like to have a discussion on the talk page of the List of transgender characters in film and television page before that happens. Historyday01 (talk) 16:38, 24 January 2021 (UTC)


 * P.S. Pyxis Solitary, and everyone else in this discussion, the request to split TV series content from the "List of transgender characters in film and television" page into its own page has been posted, if you'd like to participate. Historyday01 (talk) 17:13, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * This article's size seems largely to be down to fact that it is lumping examples across different mediums together and the fact that it is lumping different identities together. Any list of this type will always have the potential to become unwieldy, but the more lumping the more the more size it is likely to gain. The only significant issue with splitting is that some underrepresented identities may be left without an obvious article for examples of their representation to be listed in. A general article which both lists examples of less common examples of queer representation in media while also providing links to other pages where more extensive content is listed may be worthwhile. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 17:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * HumanBodyPiloter5, I understand what you are saying, but there are already articles for lesbian, gay, bi, trans, asexual, and intersex characters, so none of the entries would be deleted in the transfer process. And some of the entries transferred to the specific articles could still include "underrepresented identities." I get the importance of having a page for all that, but at the same time, there is duplication, and considering that the page is already split into specific identities, why not move them to their respective pages? The main page could still link to specific pages for lesbian, gay, bi, trans, asexual, and intersex characters, so people could still use this page to move to those pages. I don't want the main page to just become a page which links to other pages, akin to something like the History of LGBTQ characters in animated series: 2010s page, but we could revise the opening to say something like:


 * "This is a list of fictional LGBT characters in radio and podcast programs. The orientation can be portrayed on-screen, described in the dialogue or mentioned. Roles include lead, main, recurring, supporting, and guest. For characters in television, TV movies, and web series please see the respective pages for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans characters in these series. The names are organized alphabetically by surname  (i.e. last name), or by single name if the character does not have a surname."


 * That way they would still be linked at the beginning. Also using LGBT instead of naming specific identities would be better, as it would open the possibility of adding in asexual, intersex, or non-binary characters into the main page. That's just my thoughts on this. Historyday01 (talk) 17:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

(A gay characters list does not exist). The problem with your suggestion, however, is that those two lists don't place the focus on the characters. They begin with the years of a series, the title of a series, the network (lesbian list) -- and then the name of the character. And these lists don't even include the actors that performed the character roles, as if the actors are irrelevant. Those lists are "television series with ...." lists. This list, here, is "characters in ...." The difference is not subtle. The focus of this list is placed on the characters. I will only support merging the lesbian characters into the List of television series with lesbian characters, and the bisexual characters into the List of television series with bisexual characters if the names of the characters are positioned first, and the actor names are also included in the lists. If the List of transgender characters in film and television can do it, so can those other lists do it, too. Pyxis Solitary  (yak). L not Q. 21:58, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "with the proviso that the same happens with with gay characters ... the bisexual characters section should be moved to the List of television series with bisexual characters page ... the lesbian characters should be moved to the List of television series with lesbian characters page...."


 * Pyxis Solitary, I am aware that the gay characters page does not exist, but I believe it should exist. You are right that lists of television series don't place a focus on the characters. I created the List of television series with lesbian characters based on the format of the List of television series with bisexual characters page, and honestly the only reason that the actors haven't been included is that no one has suggested that so far, but you suggested it. I wouldn't oppose adding actors to those lists. I am aware that this page is focused on the characters, rather than the series, but the entries for the characters themselves can remain the same. For instance, the entry for Waylon Smithers of The Simpsons on the List of animated series with LGBTQ characters page is the same as the one on the List of gay characters in animation, even though the format is different. Additionally, I wouldn't oppose renaming List of television series with bisexual characters page to List of bisexual characters in television series and the List of television series with lesbian characters page to List of lesbian characters in television series, which would necessitate that the format of those pages change, but I also think it would need to be approved in a consensus, following WP:RM or similar, in a sense, to what I proposed on the List of transgender characters in film and television page. Historyday01 (talk) 00:09, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * P.S. Pyxis Solitary, I looked back at the talk page of the List of bisexual characters in television page, and the merger with this page was approved in February 2013 with literally one comment before it was approved, clearly way too to premature. Admittedly, at the time, before it merged with the main page, it was in very bad shape, due to the extreme lack of sourcing, so it makes sense why it was merged. While I would say that content from the main page should be moved into that page, it would require the List of television series with bisexual characters page to be merged with the List of bisexual characters in television page (currently only a redirect to the main page), a merger I would support, and an inevitable reorganization of the page. Just when you think there is only one set of issues, a crop of other issues come up! Historyday01 (talk) 00:46, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

The List of gay characters in animation puts the focus on the characters by beginning with (1) "Characters", followed by "Show title", "Character debut date", "Notes" -- this list's table cooperates with its title. (Waylon Smithers stands out from the others.) The table format of List of transgender characters in film and television makes sense: Characters - Actor - Show - Year - Notes. The only hiccup of this list is the year area because only the year(s) a character is included in a series should be given -- which requires being meticulous in providing this detail. The table format for this LGBT characters list makes sense: Character (because that's what the list is about) – Portrayed by (because a live action TV character would not exist without an actor to portray it) – Program (because readers need to know the series where they're found) – Notes (because a brief description of the characters and reliable sources that verify them are important). I have no problem with splitting this list, but it needs to be done carefully, for the benefit of the general public, and for the purpose of a stand-alone article about live action characters. Pyxis Solitary  (yak). L not Q. 01:06, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The List of animated series with LGBTQ characters places the focus on (1) "Duration", (2) "Show title", (3) "Character debut date" first before getting to the characters on column (4) -- it is not formatted for a list about characters. (Waylon Smithers gets lost in the crowd.)


 * "Just when you think there is only one set of issues, a crop of other issues come up!". #$@&%*!  Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 01:09, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * "The only hiccup of this list is the year area because only the year(s) a character is included in a series should be given -- which requires being meticulous in providing this detail." Hmm. Looking at it now, the year category could be changed into something else. I guess I never fully explained how that category would be used on the page when I proposed the new format for the page back in June 2020, but I think it is supposed to represent the year the film, video, or TV series premiered, at least that's my working understanding of it. I;m glad you have no issue with splitting the list and I agree with your contention that it "needs to be done carefully, for the benefit of the general public." I wouldn't oppose there being a stand-alone article about live action characters, either. In terms of the "crop of other issues," I was thinking of the fact that there are basically two pages for bisexual characters in television, one of which (List of bisexual characters in television) is a redirect to this page and the existing List of television series with bisexual characters. Perhaps at some point they should be merged, but for now, I think the content in the bisexual section from the main page should be split off into the List of television series with bisexual characters page. Historyday01 (talk) 14:44, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * In a nutshell, where are we in terms of splitting this page? What can we split first and what are the challenges? Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:01, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Split off now: Asexual and Intersex sections. Merge now: Transgender section into List of transgender characters in film and television. Create Gay list: The table of the Gay characters section is ready-made. Take the entire table and create a List of gay characters in television article with it. These four sections are the easiest to deal with immediately because (a) the volume of Asexual and Intersex content is small compared to the other sections; (b) the List of transgender characters in film and television is already formatted as a characters table and the table is almost identical to this LGBT list (character – portrayed by/actor – program/show – notes) and arranged alphabetically by character name; (c) a new gay list is simply cut and paste. The Lesbian and Bisexual sections will need to be done carefully because this LGBT list is a list of live action characters with the emphasis on the characters -- not the TV series and TV movies they appear/ed in. Pyxis Solitary  (yak). L not Q. 10:28, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * My opinion:

Onetwothreeip, that is a good question. I think Pyxis Solitary is right when it comes to the asexual and intersex sections, as they can be split off to the List of fictional asexual characters and List of fictional intersex characters pages, as there aren't that many entries, and that can be done immediately. I do think, however, we should keep in mind that when the main page is renamed List of LGBT characters in radio, as I'm advocating for, so that this page will have content after the entries for TV series are split off, that the entries for Sally Grissom, Sir Talfryn, Chloe Turner, and Jonathan "Jon" Sims, in the asexual section, would fall into the "radio" category. During this splitting of content, we should remain aware of characters in radio and podcasts, and I say that because I added a lists of characters in podcasts on the List of fictional asexual characters page, but didn't do it for any of the other pages I created. Pyxis, I know you have said, "spin radio and podcast into its own list. That's easy," but if that happened, what would become of this page? Would it have the same title? I think renaming it could work, but that's just my suggestion on it. As for the section for gay characters, I again agree with Pyxis Solitary that this could be split off, but I'd say the page should be titled List of gay characters in television series instead to make it more consistent with other pages. I'll add a link to it on the List of fictional gay characters once its published. As for the trans section, that could also be easy to move content into the List of transgender characters in film and television page. Currently, I've proposed a split of that page into two pages, but until that happens, it makes sense to move the content there for now. As for the lesbian and bisexual sections, the solution to that would be to change each of those pages (List of television series with bisexual characters and List of television series with lesbian characters) into a format like the one on the List of transgender characters in film and television page, while renaming them to List of bisexual characters in television series and List of lesbian characters in television series. Now, there are over 430 citations needed for the section on gay characters, and less than 80 citations needed for the section on trans characters. Taking into account what Isaidnoway said earlier, shouldn't we add sources for those characters before splitting them off? Similarly, the bisexual characters section has over 210 characters that need citations, and thanks to @ Isaidnoway </b>, now the lesbian characters section there are 12 entries in that section which have citation needed tags, so that's great. Since Isaidnoway is almost done with updating the lesbian characters section, maybe each of us can take a section for (bi, trans, or gay characters) and work on adding citations, so we can divide the work up. Also, maybe we should compile a list of which ones in each category (lesbian, bi, trans, gay) which are in podcasts, so we have a list of them when the characters in radio and podcast programs are kept on the main page. Just a thought. Historyday01 (talk) 20:16, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There is no need to wait for citations to be filled. I agree with what Pyxis Solitary has outlined and encourage this to be done right now, whatever can be done. Changing the names of articles is fairly simple and shouldn't be an issue. Articles are certainly far easier to edit when they are smaller. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:28, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

This LGBT list has always been about fictional (i.e. characters) in live action television -- not just restricted to television series. It includes characters in made-for-TV movies, too; for example: Anne Lister = The Secret Diaries of Miss Anne Lister [TV movie] / Gentleman Jack [TV series]. The gay, lesbian, bisexual lists for TV characters need to be "List of ____ characters in television". I don't think we need to wait for citations to be added to this list before the Gay list is created and the Asexual, Intersex, and Transgender sections are spun off. Unless there are any objections, I will create the List of gay characters in television article. Pyxis Solitary  (yak). L not Q. 22:27, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "the page should be titled List of gay characters in television series....".


 * Lesbian section is done (citations) except for the two characters from Xena: Princess Warrior, unless someone can find a definitive source stating they are lesbian, they should be removed. The size of the article is now 526,571. Will start on bisexual section next which needs over 200 cites.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:green">(talk)</b> 23:04, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Pyxis Solitary, I only said that it should be named that in line with the pages for bi and lesbian characters in TV series, but naming it "List of gay characters in television" is fine with me. Isaidnoway, great! I just updated a little of the entries so far and the lesbian section is almost done. And, Onetwothreeip, I agree that this should be done soon, but I'm still on the side of filling in the citations needed as soon as possible. Historyday01 (talk) 23:13, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Ok, then. Thanks for your input. I'm creating the gay list now. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 01:21, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅. List of gay characters in television. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 02:18, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Pyxis Solitary, thanks for doing that. I've already added the page to the LGBT template, so people can easily find it through there. I was thinking of organizing it by decades (Before 1990s, 1990s, 2000s, 2010s, 2020s) like the List of television series with bisexual characters and List of television series with lesbian characters pages, just so its easier to go through. I started the organization, but I didn't finish it (its currently a draft up in one of the tabs of my browser right now), but I wanted to know what you thought about it before I make those changes to the page. As for the "parenthetical" section at the end of that page, I have always called those sections "citations" on the pages I've created in the past and what I've seen on other pages. Historyday01 (talk) 04:08, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * P.S., everyone, I've created a list of characters in radio and podcast programs on the section below this, titled "Tentative list of LGBT characters in radio and podcast programs." There are likely more entries, but those are the only ones I've been able to find in the existing lists for now. Historyday01 (talk) 14:41, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

"Before 1990": Guiding Light – (1) there was no television with soap operas in 1937, and (2) in 1937 a bisexual character would have never been allowed even if televised soap operas had existed. Therefore, this decades information is misleading (and false) because it has nothing do with the characters. I am going to assume (based on 1937–2009; 1963–present; 1972–present; etc.) that all the other years given in that list also have a zero connection to the individual characters. If the specific year(s) a character appeared in a program cannot be provided, then there's no reason for providing the years detail. I repeat again what I've conveyed before in this discussion: if a list is about characters then the list must be concentrated on the characters. Pyxis Solitary  (yak). L not Q. 22:08, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "I was thinking of organizing it by decades (Before 1990s, 1990s, 2000s, 2010s, 2020s)...." I think you are making an easy-to-edit table hill into a mountain. One quick glance at the "Duration" column in List of television series with bisexual characters shows a huge problem with it and any reader can see it immediately. To wit:


 * Pyxis Solitary, that's a fair point, which is why I only started the process, but did not finish it, so I can scrap that before I move on any further in that process. I would like that table to have some subdivisions, however. Maybe it could be by last name/surname, like "Characters A-H," "Characters I-P," "Characters P-Z," or something like that, because its a bit hard to navigate right now. In terms of the bisexual characters page, which I modeled the List of television series with lesbian characters after, I was organizing it by the duration of the series, but of course that is a little clunky, as you pointed out. I can see an advantage of using that format in the sense that characters of the same show can be put together, meaning that someone can go on the List of animated series with LGBTQ characters: 2020–present page and find all the characters in Kipo, along with all the characters in My Next Life as a Villainess: All Routes Lead to Doom! or The Owl House. Even so, I still see the value of organizing a page by characters rather than years the show aired, as the years usually relate to the show itself, not the characters specifically. Historyday01 (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

"...characters of the same show can be put together, meaning that someone can go on the List of animated series with LGBTQ characters: 2020–present page and find all the characters in Kipo...." I would not organize the bisexual and/or lesbian list by series and what characters are found in them, because again, the emphasis is then being placed on the series. I'm a member of the public, and if were to be interested in finding what series has bisexual and/or lesbian characters, there are lists for dramatic, comedy, and television film lists arranged by name of program. The sections of this LGBT list are impressive because of how many LGBT characters have been included in television series and movies -- and that's what it's all about. (When I first discovered this list, my initial reaction was "I had no idea" there have been so many L, G, B, T characters included in TV programs.) Pyxis Solitary   (yak). L not Q. 04:02, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * "Maybe it could be by last name/surname, like "Characters A-H," "Characters I-P," "Characters P-Z," or something like that....". I presume you're referring to the bisexual list, because this LGBT list is organized by surname/last name, unless a character doesn't have one and then the character is listed by the only name given in the series.


 * When I said "it could be by last name/surname, like "Characters A-H," "Characters I-P," "Characters P-Z," or something like that...." I was referring to a possible organization of the List of gay characters in television page. Perhaps the bisexual and lesbian characters listed on this discussion before could be reorganized that way, although it makes sense why those lists are organized that way. Like you, I am also continually "interested in finding what series has bisexual and/or lesbian characters," and appreciate their are lists for "dramatic, comedy, and television film lists arranged by name of program." Additionally, I agree with you that the sections of this LGBT list are definitely impressive due to the number of LGBT characters included. I never knew there were that many either and I'm always learning names of new characters (and the shows they are part of) all the time. Historyday01 (talk) 04:13, 28 January 2021 (UTC)


 * See what you think about an alphabetized TOC embedded in the table in the bisexual section. It can also be moved out of the table and placed right above the table. Just an idea to help with quick and easy navigation in the various tables. It can also be customized if need be. Thoughts? It can easily be removed as well.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:green">(talk)</b> 20:33, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Isaidnoway, that looks like a good idea to me and I'd support that going on the List of gay characters in television page, and other pages where content from the main page would be split off to, which would be better than creating new categories like "Characters A-H," "Characters I-P," "Characters P-Z." Historyday01 (talk) 20:53, 28 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Does it help Jane and Joe Doe Reader? How? Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 07:01, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, it makes it easy to go from one letter to another and makes it a bit more navigable. I mean, if that was used, then you wouldn't need to create sections like "Characters A-H," "Characters I-P," and "Characters Q-." Historyday01 (talk) 14:31, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I experimented with a couple of mock-ups of potential tables with some different ideas that have been tossed around, these are just mock-ups and not a definitive solution. They can be found here - Sandbox 2 is a table just with L's listed, with section headings in table (with background color), alphabet TOC, a possible legend for additional info. The sections would be included in the main TOC if readers wanted to navigate quickly to a specific section, the sections would also make it easier for editors to add a new entry or edit an existing entry without having to load the whole page in editing mode. The alphabet TOC also makes it easier to navigate to a specific entry since the characters are listed alphabetically. Sandbox 3 is two different tables, the first one is just the B characters separated into female and male sections, the sections would be in the main TOC for readers to quickly navigate to, right now they are all combined. I left out the alpha TOC, but it could be added if desired. The second table is sorted by Broadcast (aka ABC, CBS, NBC, CW, etc.), Cable, Web series, I just threw some characters in it to illustrate another way to organize. A lot of people have gone to streaming services only so it would make it handy to find a character/show if they wanted to check information or if they just wanted to browse for something new to watch. Anyway, these are just mock-ups, nothing definitive, and the tables are also customizable and can be changed, background colors changed, items removed, items added, etc. Take a look and see what you think. (PS: I deliberately shortened the notes, just for preview purposes, and left out the refs) And of course, we can just leave the tables as they are now. Thanks.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:green">(talk)</b> 07:58, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I like the overall concept of your sandbox2/Lesbian list. I would not bother with highlighting characters from web series since (1) web tv series are no longer a rarity, and (2) the lead informs readers that names from "...web series" are included. The purpose for linking to the WP article about a series or TV movie is for readers to learn more about the series or movie. As for highlighting characters that were killed or died: I think this will pose a burden because it necessitates having some in-depth knowledge of storylines and more often than not, characters are added when someone first sees them in a series -- but this does not necessarily mean they'll stick around to watch all the episodes. The list should be made easy to read and edit.  Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 09:16, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I think Pyxis Solitary has a valid point, however, I'd say the web series should be included unless we'd want to make a separate page for those in web series (something like LGBT characters in web series perhaps?). I did that for animated web series, but that's not a list page. The only reason I'm not sure about characters which have died or killed is that it could spoil the series for those that are looking on this list. That's my concern with it. Also, it might be too much of a burden for those editing the page to know if a character died or not, as you'd have to know more in-depth about the series, and I certainly haven't watched almost any of the series on the list. Isaidnoway, the big problem I have with Sandbox 3 is that there is duplication. I can understand the reason for dividing the content that way, but I'm, personally, not keen on duplicating content on the same page. I tend to like Sandbox 2 better, only because there isn't duplication of content as is the case with Sandbox 3, and categorizing shows into whether they are in "broadcast," "cable," or "web series" can be dicey. Also, I honestly don't know the difference between "broadcast" or "cable" as I'd say they are same thing, unless cable is referring to the big three networks (ABC, NBC, and CBS), and broadcast is anything beyond that and including anything on Netflix. Historyday01 (talk) 14:14, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow, thanks for making me feel old, broadcast is TV you don't have to pay for, like putting an antenna on your roof to receive over-the-air broadcast television signals from a television station (like your local station), shows on ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CW can be free if you use an antenna, and those are considered broadcast shows. Cable is TV you pay for and networks like USA, FX, TNT, TBS, Comedy Channel, ESPN are types of cable networks. I'm old enough to remember when there wasn't any cable TV, only had an antenna and 4 or 5 stations to watch, boy wasn't I excited when we finally got cable and MTV was the next big thing. As for highlighting the killed/died, it wasn't a burden for me as that info is already in the article right now (in the notes column), which is where I got it from, but I do understand your overall point. I just noticed that sources like LezWatch.TV and LGBT Fans always include that info, and sometimes a storyline like with Lexa and her exit from the series is widely covered in sources. But I'm fine with excluding it. As for sandbox 3 (duplication concern), two different tables like that would not be included in the same page, I was just too lazy to make a sandbox 4 for the broadcast, cable, web series idea, that specific table and idea was just meant to illustrate another way of organizing the information, sorry I didn't make my laziness clear. As for separating the male/female characters in bi-sexual, I do think that it a good idea, the gay and lesbian sections were separated that way - List of gay characters in television. So far then, no to the killed/died idea, and no to the broadcast/cable/web idea. I kind of like highlighting the web series, but I can also understand it might be an unnecessary burden for editors adding new characters. I also like sandbox2 the best, easy to navigate and easy for editors to edit. Thanks for the input, if and when we decide to implement any changes, let me know, I'll be glad to help.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:green">(talk)</b> 16:23, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Isaidnoway, I wasn't trying to make you "feel old," sorry if you interpreted it that way, it wasn't meant as an insult or anything. I guess my understanding of cable and broadcast is a bit antiquated, in part because I'm pretty young, I guess. I used to have two small TV (actually two in the house) where I grew up, but that's all gone now, with a bigger flat screen now, although there is still an antenna (a digital one) which picks up like 100 channels or something. So, I missed that whole MTV era, growing up in the 90s, so the internet and computers has, for a large part, been all I've known. My parents could probably tell you more about the TV then I could, and watch more TV than I do. Anyway, back to the subject at hand, I don't mind web series being highlighted, but just not on that page. That's why I created pages like LGBTQ representation in animated web series and I would not mind a list specifically about that (List of LGBT characters in web series maybe?), especially with the discussion about web series (and much more) which I just started on WikiProject Television. Additionally, I wasn't saying it was a burden for you to highlight those who were killed or died, but for others who would edit the page. So, if one of the sections was on another page, it would be a sub-page or something? Maybe in the future, there could be, a depressing page listing all the LGBT characters who have been killed off by series (I don't know what it would be titled thought). Considering that creators like Noelle Stevenson have said that they don't want to see any more gay characters killed in pop culture anymore, there is bound to be some discussion about that, especially with a "Bury your gays" section already existing on the Media portrayal of LGBT people page. Anyway, I still think the organization proposed in Sandbox 2 is better. I don't think you can combine elements that separate male and female bi characters in sandbox 3 with the organizational elements in sandbox 2. But, I am glad you like sandbox 2 as well. That's great to hear. Historyday01 (talk) 17:35, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what you mean by - I don't think you can combine elements that separate male and female bi characters in sandbox 3 with the organizational elements in sandbox 2. I think you can, I'm not seeing any issue with that. The characters would still be listed in alphabetical order in each section, and can be searched for that way as well, they'd only be separated by gender. Let me tinker with sandbox3 to illustrate what I mean.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:green">(talk)</b> 22:39, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Isaidnoway, oh, I was just saying that I don't think you could combine elements of those two sandboxes, but I could be wrong about that. If you could, that would be great. Historyday01 (talk) 23:34, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Separating web series characters from broadcast and cable? Not necessary. I failed to mention in my previous comment that Wikipedia has concerns in place about colors, font size, and anything that makes reading an article (or list) difficult for readers who are visually impaired (WP:ACCESSIBILITY). The idea of dividing the Bisexual list into male and female is a very good idea, and it will make it even easier to add and find bisexual characters. Pyxis Solitary  (yak). L not Q. 03:56, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You think you're old? Ha! Bozo the Clown was my after school 'babysitter' until my parents came home from work. I know this much about television: broadcast = over-the-air free TV, cable = pay-TV, separated into basic and premium subscriptions, Web TV = produced for Internet digital streaming; and original programming today is made by/for broadcast-cable-web networks.


 * Finished bisexual citation needed tags, page size is back to 422,328, looks like approximately 75 cn tags left.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:green">(talk)</b> 21:53, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Isaidnoway, thanks for doing that. I'll try to finish the transgender characters today if at all possible. Historyday01 (talk) 22:16, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you for dividing the bisexual table! I know what a time consuming task it is to make a major change to an existing table, and truly appreciate what you've done with it. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 05:12, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I will start on List of gay characters in television next, since it was split off still needing over 400 citations.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:green">(talk)</b> 06:13, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Isaidnoway, that sounds like a good plan! I just finished going through the transgender section (finally!), so if you and Pyxis Solitary agree, I'll split that content off to the List of transgender characters in film and television shortly. It seems that my proposed split to that page on List of transgender characters in film and television talk page to List of transgender characters in television series and List of transgender characters in film will happen. I'm giving the discussion about a month to elapse, which means it would end February 25, unless someone comments there before then. I already posted about it on WikiProject LGBT studies but never got any further comments on it after that... I think that really says it all and how not as active that WikiProject is compared to the WikiProject Television, where someone wants to remove ALL cast listed in upcoming TV shows, films, etc... pages claiming they are just "rumors" even if proven by reliable sources! Yikes. Also, I think we should split the content in the bisexual characters section off to the List of television series with bisexual characters page as soon as possible (perhaps propose a name change there). The same applies to the lesbian section, List of television series with lesbian characters (perhaps propose a name change there too). Historyday01 (talk) 20:25, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

List of lesbian characters in television List of gay characters in television List of bisexual characters in television List of transgender characters in television. They're not exclusively about "series" ... they include characters in made-for-TV movies, too. "Television" is not pigeonholed as meaning only television series. As for upcoming TV shows: these lists have been about the past and present -- not the future. Even with reliable sources about a TV series or TV movie in the works, there is always the possibility that a series and movie can be cancelled. See, for example, List of television series canceled before airing an episode. Re: "List of television series with bisexual characters"" and "List of television series with lesbian characters". I don't know why it is that no matter how many times it's explained, you keep coming up with titles that emphasize series instead of characters. The purpose of the lists is the characters. Characters come first because characters is what they're about. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 07:56, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I think the lists of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender characters in television should be titled exactly what they are about:
 * Pyxis Solitary, I don't disagree with that and I wouldn't mind that the pages be changed. In fact, I would argue that changing the names of those pages would be a positive. Most of the pages I have created have emphasized characters rather than series. The List of animated series with LGBTQ characters was already named that before I came along (well, it was actually something similar) and I did once organize it by characters, but later reversed that back to having it organized by series. I then followed that with all the pages that split off from it. Considering the discussions on that page I've had in the past, I don't really want to change the name of that at this present time. Additionally, I think the specific character pages (most of which I created) for those in the LGBTQ umbrella are organized by character and alphabetically, so I think it balances out. I'd also like to add that I only gave the List of television series with lesbian characters that name because I was basing it off the List of television series with bisexual characters page. I's have to agree with you when it comes to TV shows that it can be seen broadly, as many shows on streaming services (like Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu, Peacock, etc.) can be considered TV shows. Historyday01 (talk) 15:46, 6 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply, Historyday01. If it's set to go -- unless you and think it should be delayed -- I will create the List of lesbian characters in television article within the next 24 hours.  Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 04:35, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me, thanks to everyone involved in getting these issues resolved (page splits and citations added). My work on the gay characters article is ongoing, I now have the number of cn tags down from 421 to 210, so should be finished in the next few days.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:green">(talk)</b> 05:22, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good plan, Pyxis Solitary and Isaidnoway. I'll split off the transgender characters today and look to find sources in the "Tentative list of LGBT characters in radio and podcast programs" on this page. Historyday01 (talk) 15:24, 7 February 2021 (UTC)


 * ✅. List of lesbian characters in television. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 01:25, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing that. I split off the content to the List of bisexual characters in television page. That leaves the matter of whether we should do with the main page... should it be renamed to List of LGBT characters in radio? I'd argue it should. However, Pyxis Solitary and Isaidnoway, I'd like your thoughts on this, so we can proceed from there. Historyday01 (talk) 03:48, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Done with gay characters in television, added refs for 431 cn tags. Since this article is now basically a stub, the title should be moved to List(s) instead of the singular list, unless it's going to be for radio shows. Either way, it should be moved. And on a side note, we can't let that many unsourced entries happen again, new entries must be reliably sourced when added, or removed until a source is provided.<b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:blue"> Isaidnoway </b><b style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:green">(talk)</b> 09:04, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Isaidnoway, I totally agree, we shouldn't let it happen again. Next up, the List of comedy television series with LGBT characters, List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters: 1970s–2000s, List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters: 2010s, List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters: 2020s, List of made-for-television films with LGBT characters, List of soap operas with LGBT characters, and List of reality television programs with LGBT cast members, and List of video games with LGBT characters all need help with sourcing, so I may try to work on some of those in the coming day. I'll move it to the appropriate page shortly. Historyday01 (talk) 14:53, 11 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The main page that directs readers to separate lists should remain List of LGBT characters in television and radio -- with "List" changed to Lists (plural). : you really need to apply the brakes on your jumping at any opportunity to change things to your way of thinking. You should NOT have moved the main list article to List of LGBT characters in radio. It needs to be moved back and an individual article created for the latter -- and it should contain "podcast" in the title because a podcast program is not the same as a radio program. You cannot listen to a Podcast without access to the Internet.  Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 08:24, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Why should the main page remain? It actually now has a list, rather than before, where it was literally just a stub, making its value very low. As I've said before, I thought the whole organization of TV and radio together did not make sense. Changing the name was the best approach instead of creating a separate page. Besides, all the split off pages are listed in the see also section already. Historyday01 (talk) 13:47, 12 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Because the history of the list has value. It is a record of how often it was edited and who were the editors involved. You erased that. Without first discussing and seeking consensus. Your viewpoint about this is limited and your edit was impulsive. You simply don't think about the domino effect of substituting the contents of one article with another. You also don't take into consideration that many editors -- and readers -- who are not aware of the split-offs are going to go in circles before they figure out what happened. It wasn't burning a forest to retain the list until more editors became aware of the change. Just like your creating articles about "characters" that put the series they appeared in first and the character secondary, and then also add into character lists the years a series ran but not when the character actually appeared in the series, you don't think things through.  Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 12:22, 14 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree with you that it has value. But, changing the page did not erase any of the past history. You could say the decision was impulsive, but I did think about it for a while, and even revised the name after reading your comments on here. And in the next section, I have posed a compromise name, so we can talk about that more there. In terms of those articles, their organization is justified and fine. I have created pages focused on series and other focused on characters. Both can exist. In terms of not listing the time that the character appeared, I think the list could be too hard to maintain, as a good number of the shows I've updated have wiki or fandoms which are either not updated regularly or are obscure shows. So, I stuck with the years it aired instead, as that made more sense and easier to group together shows which aired during the same time period. Historyday01 (talk) 15:07, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Tentative list of LGBT characters in radio and podcast programs

 * Not going to edit your table because it's a talk page comment, but remember that names are organized by surname. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 07:35, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Hmm. It should be corrected now. Historyday01 (talk) 16:06, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Moved to main page. Historyday01 (talk) 14:57, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * No. You didn't just "move" it -- you destroyed the main page to do things your way. People who have been contributing to the List of LGBT characters in television and radio --but don't edit the list as if it were attached to their hips -- are going to wonder what the F happened to it. It should be restored so that they can find the split-off lists immediately. The blundering is unbelievable. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 08:36, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The main page was a stub and was unnecessary, and cited no sources, due to the splitting off the content to the other pages. I don't think that restoring the page at this current time, and place, is a good idea. Besides, the split off pages are in the see also section. All I did was change the page so it about radio and podcast shows, then moved the split off pages, for TV programs, to the see also section. I don't see that as "blundering" or a "destruction." Historyday01 (talk) 14:05, 12 February 2021 (UTC)


 * You did not bother to seek consensus before doing your thing. It was a total lack of foresight and looking at the big picture. The history of the List of LGBT characters in television and radio needs to remain available. The article history statistics (i.e. how often it was edited and who were the editors) needs to stay available. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 11:59, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, in my defense, I thought that the consensus was implied, from my reading of the discussion. Additionally, while I see what you are saying, I'm not sure that changing it back is a good idea, as it could disrupt a lot of existing links. All the previous history and stats are still there, its just that the page name is the different. Historyday01 (talk) 14:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Anyway, @ Pyxis Solitary, I am willing to compromise and change the name of the page, but only if it can be changed to the List of LGBT characters in radio, podcasts, and television, as I would argue that the old name "List of LGBT characters in television and radio" is not accurate due to the fact that podcasts are different from radio. Also, this would refocus the page on radio and podcasts rather than television like in the past. Historyday01 (talk) 15:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)


 * "All the previous history and stats are still there...." See the "Page statistics" topic at the top of the talk page? Go to the link for Wikipedia Page History Statistics, select project en.wikipedia, insert page title List of LGBT characters in television and radio, click search ... and see the result. All the editor names that edited List of LGBT characters in television and radio from the day the list was created are gone, all the edits associated with each name are gone (screenshot). Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 11:37, 15 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I wasn't referring to that "Page Statistics" section, which I've never used (why would I care about stats on this page?), I was referring to the fact that history section, with all the edits, noting who added or removed what when and where is there, is still there. Sadly, it seems that there won't be any consensus on this page name, so I'm going to leave it at its present name unless you agree with changing it to List of LGBT characters in radio, podcasts, and television, as the previous name "List of LGBT characters in television and radio" is not sufficient as I've previously described, especially since the focus is on radio and podcasts now rather than television. Historyday01 (talk) 14:44, 15 February 2021 (UTC)


 * One last comment here, @ Pyxis Solitary . You said that I "deleted" the page on an edit on a related page and I'd have to say that's not true. I changed the page name, perhaps too hastily (I explained my reasoning for that earlier and don't wish to explain my rationale once again), but I did not "delete" it. As I've said above, I'm willing to change the name and move it to something new, although I'm still unsure about whether to move it back to the "List of LGBT characters in television and radio" name as I'd prefer something like List of LGBT characters in radio, podcasts, and television or List of LGBT characters in television, radio, and podcasts instead, although that view could change. Historyday01 (talk) 18:12, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

wrote "...the title should be moved to List(s) instead of the singular list...." on 09:04, 11 February 2021. You moved the page to "List of LGBT characters in radio" on 14:55, 11 February 2021 – six hours later. Every Wikipedia editor is not on the same time zone as every other Wikipedia editor and I did not see Isaidnoway's comment, your reply to it, and what you did until 08:24, 12 February 2021. This tells me that you did not want to know if someone could disagree with the move. Long story short: my opinion is based on the evidence. Pyxis Solitary  (yak). L not Q. 11:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * When the title of an article and everything it contained is gone: it has been deleted. The main "List of LGBT characters in television and radio" contained an explanatory lead, directs to the split-off lists created from the main list, the annual GLAAD reports for reference about the subject of the title, and categories the list was associated with -- which linked it to the main article for television programs with LGBT characters. All this disappeared when you "moved" your draft of "List of LGBT characters in radio" (initial title) into the article's space, blanking the existing content, and renamed the article. Whichever which way you turn it ... what existed is gone because it was erased. Erased = deleted.


 * Pyxis Solitary, sigh. I continue to stand by my claim that it wasn't "erased" or "blanked" but rather changed to its current form. It is a reorganization of the content in a new way. You talk about the annual GLAAD reports being deleted, but they are STILL there, even though GLAAD doesn't review characters in radio or podcasts as far as I know. I kept them there for your benefit. And, I did change the title, again, slightly, to its current name after you noted that it should be broader than just radio, don't forget that. I understand that not every Wikipedia editor is on the same time zone. Its not that I did "not want to know if someone could disagree with the move" as you put it, but rather I did the change because I thought that there was a consensus at the time to make that change, from my reading of the conversation on this talk page. Perhaps that was hasty, I admit, and I should have done more before making the proposed change, if at all. I will say, in my defense, that the page, before I made the change, had no content other than linking to other pages (and the GLAAD reports, which I kept), along with some verbiage at the top of the page introducing the list, and some hidden text. I left it that way for three days! Isaidnoway noted that in the comment you quoted, saying "this article is now basically a stub, the title should be moved to List(s) instead of the singular list, unless it's going to be for radio shows. Either way, it should be moved." I saw that as a nod meaning "change the page name" and the page to focus on radio and podcast programs. The changes I made right after that were to reflect that the page had changed its focus to radio and podcast programs. I later expanded the lead to include something distinguishing podcasts and radio. The split-off pages were moved to the "see also section" where they remain. Saying all of this, Wikipedia is fluid, things change, which is why I am proposing a changed name to bring back the content from the former page, including sections for categories for the bisexual, transgender, gay, and lesbian characters in TV, with categories for each, under a new name like List of LGBT characters in radio, podcasts, and television or List of LGBT characters in television, radio, and podcasts, as I don't think the old name of List of LGBT characters in television and radio is inclusive enough. It would rectify my movement of the page to a new name, which you are calling "erasure" and "deletion." However, you haven't responded to any of my proposals for a changed page name, my first one on February 14 (over ten days ago). I had hoped you would do as I was trying to compromise here, not get into some heated discussion about past actions which I can't change. If I could go back in time, I surely would have done it differently, but I can't change the past. So, I'm not keen to change the page name again to another title (whether the original title or one of the ones I proposed) without your say so one way or the other. I had hoped to resolve this, which is why I mentioned you in my comment yesterday, Sadly, seems that will not be the case, so I guess I'll go back to editing other pages instead. Oh well. Sounds like a loss to the people/editors "who have been contributing to the List of LGBT characters in television and radio" that you talked about in your comments on February 12 and February 14. Historyday01 (talk) 14:26, 25 February 2021 (UTC)


 * "you haven't responded to any of my proposals for a changed page name". There is no need for me to respond to the proposals when my position was and has been that the List of LGBT characters in television and radio page should not have been snuffed out. It became a directory page. So what that it was whittled down to a "stub". Wikipedia has innumerable stub pages that remain because although they may not be filled with wall-to-wall text, their existence represents a value to the project. If not,  would not exist. Oftentimes a "stub" page helps a Wikipedia reader search and find info about their subject of interest by pointing them in a direction.  Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 15:46, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Well, I suppose we are at an impasse then, just as I thought would happen. Sigh. I would argue the page has more value in its current form than just a stub, but that's just my position on that. I did some reading of the Wikipedia rules on stubs and it says on WP:IDEALSTUB that "A stub should contain enough information for other editors to expand upon it" and goes on to give guidelines about a stub, then there is a whole page about stub types (WP:SST). My interpretation of that is that stubs are somewhat temporary in that they are created in hopes of expanding them in the future. That's all I have to say about stubs.Historyday01 (talk) 19:29, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Apples and oranges. Two different page titles. Two different purposes. This List of LGBT characters in radio and podcasts is not the same as List of LGBT characters in television and radio. Pyxis Solitary   (yak) . L not Q. 20:27, 26 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm aware of that, obviously, which is why I was proposing a few new page names to be more inclusive than the original List of LGBT characters in television and radio page name. But seeing that we aren't going to agree or are receptive to that idea, I'm basically just going to give up on that and move onto other pages which actually need work. I don't see this conversation as productive anymore and almost regret joining in the discussion in the first place. If I had just ignored this page and worked on other pages, none of this would have happened. So, in the future, I may avoid pages that need a lot of work, and work on smaller pages instead. Historyday01 (talk) 20:37, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

This page vs List of LGBT characters in television and radio
Since both pages list radio in their title, is there a way we could move the radio from that page to this page? It would help keep them separate.Amethystloucks (talk) 20:57, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The page you linked is just a redirect to this one, though. The radio entries are already on this page... I don't know what you are asking. --Historyday01 (talk) 21:35, 6 March 2021 (UTC)