Talk:List of LGBT people from New York City/Archive 1

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Reference review
Per our previous discussion, I am carrying out a reference review that confirms each individual listed in the page has a reference confirming that the subject has publicly stated that they identify as LGBT (as appropriate to the individual). As at this writing, the references for the following individuals do not appear to be correct/sufficient; where applicable, an alternative reference is suggested. A reference that also states the person lives/works in NYC is ideal.
 * (Imported from my user talk page) - Hi Risker- first of all, I would like to thank editors Figurefour44 and Chrish65 for their valiant efforts and edits to this and the parent LGBT culture in New York City articles. Because the far greater time urgency here is the LGBTQ status, that is what I've concentrated on in quoting sources. Most of them probably also do mention the NYC connection- but it can be challenging to find the required refs and not every ref may contain both the LGBTQ and the New York connection. I'm sure ultimately we can find a ref that also contains the NYC connection for all of them, but this aspect is not nearly as personal (or urgent) as the LGBQT status. Will look at and incorporate your suggestions after we beat our self-imposed time deadline here. Thanks all, again! Castncoot (talk) 20:58, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Academia and research

 * All seem okay.

Broadway and stage

 * Richard Greenberg - ensure link indicates that membership is required to read the full article (I cannot verify that it includes a self-identification. Note that the Wikipedia article about this individual does not include any verification, either.  This reference confirms NYC residence.
 * ✅ (We may have to accept some degree of synthesis for now.) Castncoot (talk) 03:33, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Brian Hutchison - borderline, although probably okay. Shame the Variety review, mentioned in the WP article for the subject, is no longer available, as it would have been more helpful. Doesn't really say this person lives in NYC.
 * ✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:41, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * (Reviewed as far as Robin de Jesús - will continue tomorrow)

Risker (talk) 06:17, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Continuing: ✅ Castncoot (talk) 20:43, 24 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 20:47, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Keith McDermott - dead link. Try this instead.
 * Wesley Taylor - not a good source. Try this interview on Youtube instead.
 * rest seem okay.

Drag

 * Okay up to Lady Bunny, where I'm stopping for the night. Will continue tomorrow - so many NYT links I have to keep clearing my cookies. Risker (talk) 05:38, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * All okay.

Entrepreneurship and technology

 * All okay.

Fashion

 * Calvin Klein - New York Daily News is a borderline source for BLPs at the best of times, and the link goes to a negative story about a non-notable person; it is not a suitable reference. This is a much better source, it is a quote of Klein himself. (Please also port it over to the article on Klein, it can be used to reference the existing sentence.)
 * ✅ Castncoot (talk) 07:54, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Derek Lam - again NY Daily News, so borderline for BLP, and in this case it's advertorial. Try this instead, including a note that subscription is required; however, confirms relationship with his husband in the sub-headline.
 * ✅ Castncoot (talk) 07:59, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Brandon Sun - no Wikipedia article; until there is an article that demonstrates his notability, he should be removed from the list.
 * ✅ Castncoot (talk) 08:02, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Film and television
✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:22, 27 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:22, 27 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:40, 27 October 2019 (UTC) *More to follow. Risker (talk) 21:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ 03:57, 27 October 2019 (UTC) *More to come, need to clear cookies again. Risker (talk) 00:30, 25 October 2019 (UTC) ✅, moved to Fashion Castncoot (talk) 04:15, 27 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:49, 27 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 04:27, 27 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 04:27, 27 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ (NYC metro) Castncoot (talk) 21:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 21:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC) It does attribute to Here Publishing - does this not suffice? If not, then I would need some help with this, thanks. Castncoot (talk) 21:52, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Austin Armacost - The Sun is a gossip rag and is unsuitable for BLP referencing. Unfortunately, none of the other references in the WP article are much better (which raises the question of whether or not someone known almost entirely for being on reality shows is actually notable), and I could not find better sources on a quick search. Suggest removing him from the list for now until a really solid, non-tabloid source is found.
 * Wolfgang Busch - unreferenced. Please remove from the list until a solid reference source can be added. I note there is no statement in the WP article that states he is gay, either.
 * Laverne Cox - This is a much, much better reference. Please add it in addition to the one already in the article (which confirms NYC residency).
 * Lee Daniels - NYDN, try this instead. (Incidentally, the out.com article appears to be the real source of the NYDN article, with direct, poorly attributed quotes from that interview.)
 * Drew Elliott - the current ref is a gossip site, not suitable for BLP info. This reference should do, although it's an interview with his partner. Incidentally, Elliott has just moved to MAC Cosmetics, so you may have to put him into a different category. Business? Fashion?
 * John Cameron Mitchell - Recommend using the NYT article, the current reference is to an on-line encyclopedia which doesn't meet WP:RS.
 * Janet Mock - Recommend using this reference instead. The current reference is essentially a press release.
 * John Mulholland (director) - No idea what that reference is supposed to show, as far as I can see it is just a list of films on a site where one has to log in to do anything. Nothing in his Wikipedia article discuses his sexual identity. Recommend removing until a solid reference source can be identified.
 * Stacie Passon - none of the available references are great, but the current one doesn't actually state her sexual identity. This one at least describes her best-known film as the "loosely autobiographical story of a lesbian housewife gone wild". Incidentally, it seems she lives in New Jersey, not NYC.
 * Zachary Quinto - current ref indicates he's an LGBT activist, which isn't quite the same thing. Recommend this instead.
 * Greta Schiller - the source is fine, but you're going to have to make sure it is properly attributed as opposed to just giving the google book link.
 * Ahh, I see; it looks different in the refs list than it does in the mediawiki editing window. Should be fine, has the date and publication, states it is via google books. Risker (talk) 23:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC) (Consider this one ✅). Risker (talk) 23:11, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

✅ Castncoot (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Taylor Schilling - in the referenced interview, Schilling actually refuses to "clarify" her sexual identity. She should be removed from the list.
 * Christopher Tyra - does not have a Wikipedia article. Remove from list.
 * Andrea Weiss (filmmaker) - reference doesn't mention subject's sexual identity (in fact it barely mentions the subject), and neither the article about her nor the references in that article specifically discuss her sexual identity. Remove until a solid reference is found.
 * The remainder appear okay. Risker (talk) 02:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Law

 * One entry, good referencing.

Literature and photography
✅ Castncoot (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 02:58, 29 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC) *Will continue later. Risker (talk) 03:45, 25 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:37, 29 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:47, 29 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 04:01, 29 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 04:05, 29 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ (removed) Castncoot (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Nahson Dion Anderson - this is a tricky one. Reference does not provide information on sexual identity. The only reference I could find in the WP article that confirms any kind of LGBT identity is this one, but it doesn't appear to be using the subject's current pronouns of preference, and includes what might be a deadname. I suggest holding this one out until better sourcing is identified.
 * Cris Beam - reference doesn't refer to sexual identity at all, nor does the subject's Wikipedia article. No clearcut references to sexual identity in the WP article references. Recommend removing until solid reference can be found.
 * Peter Cameron (writer) - Please remove from list. I just had to delete the article about him because it's copyvio all the way down to its first edit. No prejudice against writing a new article about him and then re-adding him, but it's not top priority.
 * Michael Cunningham - The reference source appears to be very gossipy. This NYT reference is probably better.
 * Annie Leibovitz - reference doesn't really confirm nature of relationship with Sontag. This one has Leibovitz use the term "lovers" so is probably better.
 * Ariel Schrag - not a great reference, doesn't really state the subject's sexual identity. One of the refs from the article about the subject does quote her as saying "I found his envy of my queerness intriguing", so it is much more useful, but should be correctly attributed to the original magazine rather than the archive of Schrag's own website.
 * Sarah Schulman - reference doesn't really state the subject's sexual identity. Try this one instead.
 * Ocean Vuong - reference doesn't really state the subject's sexual identity. Try this one instead.
 * Edmund White - not a great reference (although it verifies sexual identity) because it appears to have been published only on the personal website of the author, not in any of the publications for which the author writes. Suggest this one instead.
 * Walt Whitman - our extensive article about Whitman states pretty bluntly that his sexual identification has always been disputed, and there is no indication that Whitman himself confirmed it.
 * The rest are okay. Risker (talk) 01:58, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Media
✅ (new ref, please check) Castncoot (talk) 04:31, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Josh Barro - The current reference is from a registration-required site (suboptimal, especially for BLPs), and I couldn't find any other non-tabloid/gossip site references even confirming Barro's sexual identity. It's *probably* okay (Queerty is generally fairly reliable and not particularly known for outing people), and there were some indications that Barro has spoken of "his boyfriend" on his own Twitter account in 2015 (they may be married now), which would definitely be preferable to the registration-required site.
 * Hi, I saw that when I was looking about, and it seems to be mostly a gossip site; Queerty may actually be a better reference, even though that particular article seems to require registration. (I didn't get the registration request for the majority of Queerty references, and they were all pretty much fine.) I've done a bit more digging and have found this, which is kind of self-referential but Salon would probably pass the smell test.  Risker (talk) 05:24, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, better yet: this Out magazine 100 for 2014.Risker (talk) 05:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I actually put the other one in already- it looks okay...separately though, I don't understand your objection to NYDN as a RS...it's one of NYC's daily newspapers. Castncoot (talk) 05:40, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅. Josh Barro has two supporting sources now. Castncoot (talk) 05:44, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

✅ Castncoot (talk) 04:34, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 04:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 05:15, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 05:34, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅, actually removed, now in DC and not NYC. Castncoot (talk) 05:55, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 06:00, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 19:28, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 19:33, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 19:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 19:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 19:45, 30 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:01, 31 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:37, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Keith Boykin - Current reference doesn't specifically confirm sexual identity. The subject has, however, on his own Twitter account
 * Ben Brantley - the reference source quotes another interview for the sexual identity. Recommend using the original interview.
 * Andy Cohen - Anything related to Howard Stern isn't going to be a great source. Suggest using this more traditional reference instead.
 * Angela Dimayuka - reference doesn't appear to confirm sexual identity (although it links to a lot of really interesting recipes). Recommend using this instead, which is very clear and includes a direct quote from her.
 * Chris Geidner - reference does not confirm sexual identity. Geidner confirms it himself on his Twitter account.
 * Sally Kohn - Daily Mail is not an acceptable reference source for BLPs. Use the Washington Post article, which incidentally seems to be the basis for the DM article.
 * Michael Lucas (director) - reference is probably fine, but does he belong instead in the Film & Television section, since his most notable activities are related to running a studio and acting?
 * Rachel Maddow - the reference is to a blog whose reliability isn't well-established. Suggest instead the AfterEllen archived report.
 * Michael Musto - the reference isn't great. Suggest using this which includes a direct quote from him.
 * Thomas Roberts (television journalist) - current reference looks like a blog post. Suggest using the People reference instead.
 * Choire Sicha - reference doesn't appear to discuss sexual identity, which is also not discussed in the article about the subject, nor any of the references for that article. Should be removed until a better source is found.
 * Shepard Smith - NYDN is not a good source for BLPs. Use this instead.
 * Andy Towle - reference is borderline, and should be attributed directly to the publication rather than through a google book. Suggest looking for a better one.
 * Rest look fine. Risker (talk) 05:25, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Modeling
✅ Good point- restructured. Castncoot (talk) 03:41, 31 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:44, 31 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 03:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ (fixed) Castncoot (talk) 03:55, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * General question - do they belong in the fashion section instead?
 * Leyna Bloom - link goes to a company's website, doesn't talk about Bloom. This is a better link.
 * Rain Dove - link goes to a company's website, doesn't talk about Dove. This should do fine.
 * Shay Neary - there's something wonky with the link (is it doubled?), but the apparent reference is fine.
 * Rest are okay.

Music
✅ Castncoot (talk) 15:48, 31 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 16:06, 31 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 16:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 16:10, 31 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 16:13, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Dai Burger - Reference used is just a passing reference and doesn't confirm sexual identity. This is probably better.
 * DJ Keoki - reference is from a borderline source but there don't seen to be any better ones on a quick search. I'll leave this one up to you.
 * Le1f - reference doesn't really confirm sexual identity. This is probably a better source.
 * Nhojj - no WP article, remove until there is one.
 * St. Vincent (musician) - bit of a challenge here; her own comments in this reference and others are not explicit on her own sexual identity, but this article has her confirming a relationship with Cara Delevigne and is probably the best one.
 * Others are okay. Risker (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Performance arts
--Will keep that in mind, thank you. Castncoot (talk) 16:35, 31 October 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 16:43, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * General comment - there's a lot of overlap between this grouping and other groupings; there may be something to say in favour of merging several of these categories, particularly as so many people would probably be appropriately included in more than one of them.
 * Amanda Lepore - having a lot of trouble getting the reference link to work; however, this one is still active and confirms sexual identity.
 * Others are okay. Risker (talk) 21:25, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Politics

 * Yes, I know it's the largest city in the US. But I'm astounded that city council members are considered notable.
 * Yes, they are actually minor celebrities! Castncoot (talk) 04:37, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

✅ Castncoot (talk) 04:39, 1 November 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 04:52, 1 November 2019 (UTC) ✅ --> Found a good ref that can actually be used to support the LGBTQ identity of other NY politicians as well if needed. Castncoot (talk) 05:01, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Daniel Dromm - reference doesn't explicitly include sexual identity. This reference does.
 * Carlos Menchaca - NYDN still isn't a good reference for BLPs, but the article involved is primarily about politics, so it *may* pass scrutiny. Would suggest looking for a reference from a source with better reputation in the BLP area, such as this one.
 * Rosie Mendez - neither the link nor her WP article confirm sexual identity. None of the refs for her WP article seem to confirm it either. Given her extensive presence online, it may take some time to find a suitable confirming reference.  Recommend removing until one is found.
 * Oh yes, that's an excellent reference. Good find. Risker (talk) 05:11, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

✅ Castncoot (talk) 05:06, 1 November 2019 (UTC) ✅ Castncoot (talk) 05:09, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Daniel J. O'Donnell - the reference is too nonspecific (it's the link to the entire list), put in the specific one please
 * Christine Quinn - link goes to a dead page that seems to now be assigned to a different NYC councillor. Recommend this instead.
 * Others are okay. Risker (talk) 21:25, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Social activism
✅ Castncoot (talk) 05:20, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Brian Ellner - identified as a gay rights activist in the reference, which isn't exactly the same thing; while very much in the minority, there are many LGBT activists who aren't LGBT. Tried to find another reference from the article, and the closest that comes is this NYT article, which isn't exactly explicit, either, but might suffice.

Sports

 * General note - surprised this group is so small; on the other hand, "sports" may not really be considered "culture".
 * True. As more athletes come out as LGBTQ, this list may be reasonably expected to expand over time. Castncoot (talk) 05:22, 1 November 2019 (UTC)


 * otherwise, fine.

Visual arts

 * See general note under "performing arts"
 * Otherwise, fine. Risker (talk) 22:57, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

---End of reference checks---

Summary
The purpose of this exercise was to ensure that all entries on this list had at least one reference that confirmed the subject's sexual identity in order to meet at least that requirement of BLP. Most of the initial sources were adequate; for those that weren't, a confirmational reference source was found for almost all. The subjects of those entries who do not yet have Wikipedia articles are being removed in compliance with relevant list guidelines. There was only a small number of entries for which there was no easily-identified BLP-compliant reference source available to confirm sexual identity, and they are also being removed, with the understanding that should an appropriate reference source be identified, the subject could be re-added. From the perspective of WP:BLP, it appears to meet baseline criteria, and I do not think there are entries remaining that contravene that policy.

Once the recommendations in the section above are completed, I will move the list back to article space;, please confirm what title it should be under when it is moved. There is no guarantee that, once the list is in article space, it will not be challenged; just as any other article, it is subject to review by the broad community and could potentially be nominated for deletion, modified significantly, or otherwise challenged. Not all of the reference sources confirm both sexual identity *and* residence in NYC, so additional sourcing of the latter point may be required in some cases.

And I now know far, far more about LGBT culture in New York City than I ever thought I'd have reason to research, what with living in a different country and having no desire to ever visit NYC again. Thank you Castncoot (and several others who made contributions) for your diligence. Risker (talk) 23:32, 27 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Risker- will continue to work down to complete the tasks on this over the next few days. Best, Castncoot (talk) 00:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Well done, you've made it to the end of the list. Let me know what title you want it moved to, and I'll try to do so within the next 24 hours.  Risker (talk) 05:28, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you greatly Risker for your diligence inspecting all of the references and finding more suitable ones where needed. That was certainly a big help. I think that for now, the most appropriate title to move it to would simply be "List of self-identified LGBTQ New Yorkers". Thereafter it can evolve as it may.Castncoot (talk)

Would either of you object to me archiving this long section? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:21, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll go ahead and archive then. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 02:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

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